David Lee/Ricky Foley Thread

[doubleblue]

I watched this kid DE David Lee a little closer today as he has been getting some first string action lately. It looks IMO that the Argos got lucky bringing in a undrafted FA after all their hit and misses of their drafted players. His play may well grease the skids for Ricky Foley who has just not seem to click here as expected. The things I noticed about Lee is he has good speed and quickness which is crucial for a good DE. Heavy set in the lower half will make him tough to block and when he adds 10 lbs or so to his upper body he could become a fixture on the Argo D-Line for several years.
He has moved past last years draft pick Alexander Robinson on the depth chart in just the first half of the season. Now he just needs some good coaching on his rush moves and he can become a complete player.
I don't think we will see Ricky Foley back here next year.

[1argoholic]

Everytime he's on the field he's chasing the qb. He was running Burris down pretty good on one play today.

[Wobbler]

It's true that Foley is pretty expensive ($100K-$150K depending on bonuses) for the performance he is delivering, and this is the last year of his contract. I'm not yet convinced that Lee will become a starter, but he's one of several budget-priced guys that we should keep but will want pay raises next year. That money will have to come from somewhere.

[OV Argo]

I'd like to see Lee AND Foley on the D-line in some situations; seems Lee is always replacing Foley; when he could replace Flemons in some sets - Flemons is good for the odd knock-down but is not where he was a couple of seasons back as a force on the D-line; Foley and Lee both turned loose on pass-rush in some situations might be a good combo; and there is nothing stopping the coaches from having 2 NI DEs in at the same time, though that might be beyond their standard mind-set?


And yeah - Foley is not having enough impact on this Argo D - maybe he's slipped or slowed in his play, but maybe they need to find a better way to use him; and if he is not a fit, then maybe they will trade him or let him go, but that could be a big mistake IMO

[AngeloV]

I'd like to see Lee AND Foley on the D-line in some situations; seems Lee is always replacing Foley; when he could replace Flemons in some sets - Flemons is good for the odd knock-down but is not where he was a couple of seasons back as a force on the D-line; Foley and Lee both turned loose on pass-rush in some situations might be a good combo; and there is nothing stopping the coaches from having 2 NI DEs in at the same time, though that might be beyond their standard mind-set?


And yeah - Foley is not having enough impact on this Argo D - maybe he's slipped or slowed in his play, but maybe they need to find a better way to use him; and if he is not a fit, then maybe they will trade him or let him go, but that could be a big mistake IMO

I think Flemons has been way better than Foley this year. If he was on the field as much as Foley, he would be way more impactful. Foley's NI status, IMO, is the only reason he is still starting. He's been horrible this season.

As I mentioned in another thread, Foley fancies himself as a pass rush specialist, yet he's only had 1 season in which he had more than 6 sacks. And that was playing opposite Cam Wake. You think he got a little less attention then?

[paulwoods13]

I'm starting to think that Foley is a versatile guy who can be a solid contributor on special teams and defence, but not a star or a sack hound. If he is willing to accept that role, and the salary reduction that comes with it, he could be a good guy to have around for many years. But if he wants to keep getting star pay, he's probably not going to get it here.

[doubleblue]

I'm starting to think that Foley is a versatile guy who can be a solid contributor on special teams and defence, but not a star or a sack hound. If he is willing to accept that role, and the salary reduction that comes with it, he could be a good guy to have around for many years. But if he wants to keep getting star pay, he's probably not going to get it here.

I have to agree. I think there is something going on behind the scenes with Foley and the Coaches. I am pretty sure if he was an import he would be gone by now. The body language and his overall play to me shows he is not a happy camper. When the Coaches sour on a player its just a matter of time until the opportunity comes to move them. I always thought Ricky would make an excellant MLB if he slimmed down a bit, he has good speed and pursuit ability. I know they list him at 6'3 250, but he's not that big and at about 230 could play the middle IMO. Him and Pottinger could do the job there and free up an import spot. McCune's ok but he's nit a superstar. Ricky's one big year and his trip to the NFL didn't do him any good in the long term. To me in his mind he's a star who doesn't need to be told how rush the passer etc. I could be wrong but that's the attitude that seems show.

I agree with OV also that Flemons isn't the pass rusher he was two years ago, but he is a good veteran team player who can move into the middle to spell Huntley and Armstead. But he's not getting any younger and will have to be replaced, but not just yet. Some veteran players that stay in good shape can play longer than others. Younger is a good example. Maybe slowed a step for the corner but has flourished at safety.

[jerrym]

Foley and Huntley are 30 while Flemons will be 33 before the end of the season. Even if all three were to do a good job for the rest of the season I think it would be unwise to keep all three next year. While individually those ages are not terribly old (although Flemons is getting there). I think it would be unwise of the Argos to have three of their top 4 defensive linesmen next year being 31 or older as injuries tend to come more often and last longer past 30. If they kept all three it would probably mean a major rebuilding job for the defensive line the following season even if they were competitive next year. I agree Foley could be useful as a NI at a lower salary.

[OV Argo]

I have to agree. I think there is something going on behind the scenes with Foley and the Coaches. I am pretty sure if he was an import he would be gone by now. The body language and his overall play to me shows he is not a happy camper. When the Coaches sour on a player its just a matter of time until the opportunity comes to move them. I always thought Ricky would make an excellant MLB if he slimmed down a bit, he has good speed and pursuit ability. I know they list him at 6'3 250, but he's not that big and at about 230 could play the middle IMO. Him and Pottinger could do the job there and free up an import spot. McCune's ok but he's nit a superstar. Ricky's one big year and his trip to the NFL didn't do him any good in the long term. To me in his mind he's a star who doesn't need to be told how rush the passer etc. I could be wrong but that's the attitude that seems show.

I agree with OV also that Flemons isn't the pass rusher he was two years ago, but he is a good veteran team player who can move into the middle to spell Huntley and Armstead. But he's not getting any younger and will have to be replaced, but not just yet. Some veteran players that stay in good shape can play longer than others. Younger is a good example. Maybe slowed a step for the corner but has flourished at safety.

The point that doesn't seemed to be grasped by some here about Foley - is that he has been a sack leader in the CFL and also led the entire league's D-Linemen in tackles just last season (and by a wide margin); so that's 2 defensive categories where he has led the entire league; yet some want to give-up on him now or write him off? Could be he has lost something or maybe he is an "unhappy camper" on this defence, but IMO he could still be a top CFL DE talent; but if the coaches can't make him work in their system or he isn't happy and not not willong to accpet a different role - then maybe he could/should be replaced,

Like to see more of Lee for sure; and Flemons isn't doing much IMO.

Anyhow - kinda hard to complain too much about this Argo D - been very solid and tough this season with some big play-making (Carroll & Watkins pick 6s in consecutive games!); they looked pretty soft against the run last game though - Cobourne ripped off big yardage. The highly touted Armstead is reminding me of Wroten from last season - not doing much as the season progresses and probably way over-rated (though still young and learning the CFL); McCune is OK at MLB - decent tackle totals but nowhere near a top play-making CFL MLB (see Sherritt or Bighill or Emry) - any sacks, forced or recovered fumbles? - making tackles well down the field is one thing - why are some not calling for him or Armstaed or Flemons or Ball or Horne to be replaced or got rid of like Foley rates? - I don't recall any of them leading the CFL in a defensive category - in the past or now; but their import status means they shouild be handed every-down starting gigs to some i guess? Foley gets subbed for by a good young DE in Lee, yet Pottinger or Tristan Black get no shots at MLB so McCune can play every down ???

I'd love to see this Argo D continue to gel and get even better - no real obvious weak spots with guys needed to be cut (see the Ticats D-Line and D-backfield - mediocre to horrible); but if an upgrade was needed, i'd hardly start with Foley.

[paulwoods13]

Foley gets subbed for by a good young DE in Lee, yet Pottinger or Tristan Black get no shots at MLB so McCune can play every down ???

McCune does not play every down -- he often comes out on passing downs in favour of a sixth DB (Matt Black). T Black went in last week when McCune was hurt and missed a few plays. Pottinger seems to be a special-teamer only at this point. I'd love to see him get some snaps on defence but I am very content with McCune's play at MLB to this point. The Argo defence is doing a lot of things very well and the play of their linebackers is a huge part of that, IMO.

[OV Argo]

I think Flemons has been way better than Foley this year. If he was on the field as much as Foley, he would be way more impactful. Foley's NI status, IMO, is the only reason he is still starting. He's been horrible this season.

As I mentioned in another thread, Foley fancies himself as a pass rush specialist, yet he's only had 1 season in which he had more than 6 sacks. And that was playing opposite Cam Wake. You think he got a little less attention then?

Ummm - no - Foley tied for the league lead in sacks in 09 - when Wake was gone to the NFL; nice try though - somebody tried to run that schtick here before and got vehemently rebuked by Area 51.

[OV Argo]

McCune does not play every down -- he often comes out on passing downs in favour of a sixth DB (Matt Black). T Black went in last week when McCune was hurt and missed a few plays. Pottinger seems to be a special-teamer only at this point. I'd love to see him get some snaps on defence but I am very content with McCune's play at MLB to this point. The Argo defence is doing a lot of things very well and the play of their linebackers is a huge part of that, IMO.

McCune plays every down when they have a MLB in the D; nobody else on the roster is getting a shot - yet they have 2 guys who have experience in the CFL and showed they can play the position; McCune played more DE at Calgary then he played at MLB - and he was IMO a better DE than he is a MLB - he could sub for Flemons some at DE.

[paulwoods13]

McCune plays every down when they have a MLB in the D; nobody else on the roster is getting a shot - yet they have 2 guys who have experience in the CFL and showed they can play the position; McCune played more DE at Calgary then he played at MLB - and he was IMO a better DE than he is a MLB - he could sub for Flemons some at DE.

But the linebackers have been the strongest unit on a strong defence, IMO. So why mess with that? I sure wouldn't if I were Chris Jones.

I agree Pottinger has shown he can play the position in the CFL; disagree about Black because he has (with the exception of one game a couple of years ago) rarely been in on defence. Now whether either of them are well suited to the MLB assignments in this particular defensive scheme is something I'm not qualified to speak to.

[ArgoRavi]

I have to agree. I think there is something going on behind the scenes with Foley and the Coaches. I am pretty sure if he was an import he would be gone by now. The body language and his overall play to me shows he is not a happy camper.

I have no doubt that he is unhappy. He has even let his unhappiness loose in at least one tweet. Sorry Ricky, but nobody is bigger than the team and the defensive system as is is working great. Here is a National Post article from yesterday in which Kevin Huntley talks about this and how he has accepted his role: http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...lfish-schemes/

[OV Argo]

But the linebackers have been the strongest unit on a strong defence, IMO. So why mess with that? I sure wouldn't if I were Chris Jones.

I agree Pottinger has shown he can play the position in the CFL; disagree about Black because he has (with the exception of one game a couple of years ago) rarely been in on defence. Now whether either of them are well suited to the MLB assignments in this particular defensive scheme is something I'm not qualified to speak to.

Again - I'm not going to complain about this very solid Argo D thus far this season - great job by coach Jones in having schemes and coverages to limit opposing offences a good deal of the time; no real weak unit - but I'd argue the D-backfield is the strongest unit and the most key to shutting down CFL pass heavy offences (the pass rush has not been that great but still comes thru at times with some pressure and some sacks) - the new guys Carroll and Watkins have been excellent to go along with 2 proven vets in Younger and McCullough.

[OV Argo]

I have no doubt that he is unhappy. He has even let his unhappiness loose in at least one tweet. Sorry Ricky, but nobody is bigger than the team and the defensive system as is is working great. Here is a National Post article from yesterday in which Kevin Huntley talks about this and how he has accepted his role: http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/...lfish-schemes/

Yep - guys who can't accept the team concept or are me first types or who won't listen to coaches - are asking to be gone - good riddance. A bit of discontent or complaining is one thing; the pathetic suck-hole act that Lemon pulled on the side-line when he was replaced - smirking/sulking bs that shows zero respect for your team and team-mates - is another thing - the type of stuff that should get you a swift kick in the ar$e out of town

[ArgoRavi]

Yep - guys who can't accept the team concept or are me first types or who won't listen to coaches - are asking to be gone - good riddance. A bit of discontent or complaining is one thing; the pathetic suck-hole act that Lemon pulled on the side-line when he was replaced - smirking/sulking bs that shows zero respect for your team and team-mates - is another thing - the type of stuff that should get you a swift kick in the ar$e out of town

Agreed, OV. BTW, what do you know about David Lee? He seems to make plays every time he gets a chance. What was he like in the CIS?

[paulwoods13]

Again - I'm not going to complain about this very solid Argo D thus far this season - great job by coach Jones in having schemes and coverages to limit opposing offences a good deal of the time; no real weak unit - but I'd argue the D-backfield is the strongest unit and the most key to shutting down CFL pass heavy offences (the pass rush has not been that great but still comes thru at times with some pressure and some sacks) - the new guys Carroll and Watkins have been excellent to go along with 2 proven vets in Younger and McCullough.

When I say I feel the LBs have been the strongest unit, I want to make clear I am not being critical of the other two units. I agree that all of the DBs have been excellent, even the guys who have subbed in and out like T.J. Williams. The d-line has had its ups and downs, but in key situations it has been very strong more often than not. All in all, an excellent defence, and guys seem to be buying into their roles, hopefully Ricky becomes one of those if he isn't already.

[AngeloV]

Ummm - no - Foley tied for the league lead in sacks in 09 - when Wake was gone to the NFL; nice try though - somebody tried to run that schtick here before and got vehemently rebuked by Area 51.

You are correct on the fact the Wake was not there in '09. But the fact remains, he's never had more than 6 in any other year. I guarantee, that if not for his birth certificate, you would not be so quick to defend him.

[argotom]

Foley overall would have to be a disappointment since signing with the team.
He is not getting the pressure on the O line like when he was with the Lions.
Almost like Baggs with the Cats who was really never much of a factor.
While at the dome, I watched Foley when he was benched and he didn't look pleased as no one would under the circumstance.