Free Agency Countdown

[OV Argo]

Out of curiosity, how many new starters do you all believe the Argos will have on defence? How many new starters on defence should they have? I don't think that Jones will completely clean house on defence but I suspect that we will see at least four new starters along with a more aggressive scheme.

Yeah - that should be interesting Ravi; someone said in this thread that maybe Foley would be the only guy on D whose job is safe - and that could be right. Though i hope they retain a lot of the vets (all of them even) to give them a shot at a tough, competitive TC.

The D-line, outside of Foley, was a major disappointment last season IMO - for some reason they just weren't consistent or that strong; but I'd like to see all 3 of Flemons, Huntley and Wroten back, if they are healthy and hungry, to see if they could play to their potential; also like to see Greg Alexandre get a real look to see if he could contribute at DT; and Jon Pierre-Etienne could be a nice FA pick-up if he could pan-out at the CFL level - good play-making D-Lineman in CIS ball; and bring in some new bodies for competition too; just don't get rid of guys for the sake of change.

LBs - will Pottinger start at MLB again? will an older Eiben be retained with his salary? could Pile be a force back at OLB again? - like to think those 3 could form a very good LB unit, but i won't be surprised to see changes, and possibly 3 different guys starting? - doubt there will be 2 starting NI linebackers.

DBs - are older guys like Parker and Younger going to be kept and as starters? I really like Shell and hope he is there still; i believe McCullough was getting an NFL try-out? Could Matt Black step-up to start at corner? Might be several changes in the D-backfield? - but again i hope a number of guys are not cut just for the sake of change ...

... cause IMO the current roster features a lot of good, talented defensive players; so sure, bring in some new talent for TC competition, but i hope the new coaching staff is not going to make wholesale changes before TC just for the sake of some sort of house cleaning / their stamp on the team statement?

The Stamps D that Jones was part of has featured quite the revolving door of new faces over the past few seasons - not much continuity (maybe injury issues forced a lot of that though?) - featured a lot of ex-NFL roster guys = plenty of talent but IMO they never gelled into a consistent, tough defence. The new staff may bring in a bunch of other such ex-NFL types for TC, and the Argos' D could see a lot of changes, but it's not that easy to mold a really good defence - especially without some vets for leadership - and with a bunch of guys who are not used to playing together. Jones' D in Calgary last year did seem to feature a lot of subbing with some back-ups getting real action - that's a smart thing IMO.

[jerrym]

I hope the Argos keep Picard, Parker, Pile, Potinger, Eiben, and Buzbee in that order. Picard is the foundation of the offensive line; Parker, although not a great cover guy, is the ultimate ball hawk; Pile is a leader and hard tackler; Potinger and Eiben provide Canadian depth and the potential to start; and Buzbee is a solid backup in a position where backups get a significant amount of playing time. Bell and Ishola have shown little; Murphy, although once great, is old and expensive; Robertson has gone downhill. I like the resigning of Black, am comfortable with Johnson (a fine utility player although we need to focus on finding a replacement, such as Canadian free agent Calvin McCarty, at his age by net year at the latest), but wonder if Younger, whom I have always liked, is past his prime.

[Pinner31]

Hello everyone, it seems that everyone is EXCITED about the change......but one statistic that everyone seems to be forgetting is that the defence that gave up the most TD's last year were the Calgary Stampeders. Does that not matter?

[Will]

Hello everyone, it seems that everyone is EXCITED about the change......but one statistic that everyone seems to be forgetting is that the defence that gave up the most TD's last year were the Calgary Stampeders. Does that not matter?

The Stampeders still finished with 476 points against versus 498 points against by the Argos.

I was just looking at the standings to check that out BTW, and realized not one team gave up 500+ points this season.

[JY26]

Just throwing out a few facts and few opinions

-Darian Durant is one of toughest QBs in the CFL and definitely one of the most athletic but i wouldn't put him in the same category as a Calvillo, Ray, or Burris. The Riders went from back to back Grey Cup appearances to the worst team in the CFL. They change coaches and staff and they go from champion contender to basement of the CFL in ONE season. I believe that highlights the importance of coaching and scheme.

-Match coverage is one of the most complicated schemes that a defence can run but if mastered it affords the defence the ability to make adjustments on the fly and problem solve on the field as opposed to waiting to go to the sideline to make adjustments. As a complete defence we didn't pick it up fast enough (fact). I'd like to say to those of you that say we didn't play any man-to-man coverage this year that you are wrong. We were 60 match&zone/40 man for most of the season and the last 3 games of the season were at least 75 percent man-to-man.

-Some statistics have a stronger bearing on a team's success than others. In my opinion some statistics are cosmetic and some can have a huge impact on the outcome of games. In my years of playing turnovers have shown to be the number 1 statistic that effects winning and losing. We had 59 turnovers on offense this year and we only got back 25 on defence. Thats 59 extra possessions. Even if the opposing offence goes 2 and out after every turnover that is still at least 118 more plays over the course of a season.

-Having the #1 scoring defence is never an aberration. They record the statistics over an 18 game season. In order to lead the league in scoring defence there HAS to be both consistency and efficiency. EVERY defensive coordinator i have ever played for listed "limit the number of points scored" number one on his goal/priority list.
A cosmetic and often times misleading statistic in my opinion is passing yardage surrendered. Winnipeg's defence had an amazing year statiscally speaking. They made a lot of plays and they were fun to watch however they had a tendency to give up the big play at worst times. They finished one game above .500 at 10-8. Thats one game better than our record from the previous year.

-I have seen teams make serious runs at all levels with the best offense and the worst defence. I have never seen it the other way around. Offensive efficiency is one of the areas of the game that indirectly has a VERY strong effect on a defence's play. There are several main factors where having a good/efficient offence seriously effects the game. Take for example Montreal. Although they definitely have some good players i don't think they have a strong defence at all. Anthony Calvillo's accuracy and efficiency means that they hold the ball for the majority of the game and correspondingly the defence is on the field for less time. Less time equals less plays. Less plays equals fresher legs in the fourth quarter. Less plays also means that an offence has less attempts to figure a defence out. Another big advantage of having a strong offense is that you are often playing with a lead which allows a defence to gamble more often and more importantly it makes the game much more predictable. It is Montreal's offence that stops their opponents run game not their defence. The way Montreal controls the ball also makes it difficult for the opposing team's offence to get in a rhythm. On the flip side of that a team with a bad/inefficient offence faces more time on the field, more snaps, more punts, (which is a defensive dominated special team) and a greater variation of plays. When an offensive coordinator KNOWS he is going to get the ball back you see all they creativity come out...lol. You get run, pass, screens, play-action and you get them all game long. Couple that with running a complicated system and im sure you can understand why we didn't have much success on the defensive side of the ball. When playing on a football team that struggles offensively you can't afford to give up the big touchdown and especially not early in the game. If you allow a team to score early it can kill a struggling offence by putting too much pressure on them.

-In my opinion one of the biggest differences in the play of the defences from the 2010 and 2011 teams were the loss of Adriano Belli and the injuries to Kevin Eiben and Jason Pottinger. Not only did they both have SERIOUS injuries they also happened to play side by side on the field. The communication between the MLB and rest of the LBs is VITAL for playing against the run and the pass. (And even MORESO when playing match coverage) So not only did we have 2 first year starters at LB but we also had them playing side by side. This is in no way a knock on 1st year starters Ejiro Kuale or rookie Anthony Cannon but you can't replace SEVENTEEN years worth of experience in one season. Both Cannon and Kuale are special athletes and as they learn more about the CFL game they will only get better and better. We missed Belli on the interior of the line. Belli had a garbage man mentality and he enjoyed doing the dirty work. He took on most of the double team blocks so our other guys would have have 1 on 1 battles on the line. We missed that kind of mentality out there this year. the fact that we had 3 first year starters right in the middle of our defence was a challenge that we had some trouble adjusting to. Going into game 17 we made some moves due to injury. Will Pile moved to WLB, Nick Clement moved to SAM and i moved to Free Safety. We were all difference makers in the last couple of games of the season but the best thing about it was that it all happened naturally. We better utilized players specific skill sets and we got better results.

Like i said in my other post i want to be close to you guys and share ideas and opinions with you so that we can do this thing together. I check the forum pretty often so feel free to ask questions. Some things i can't/won't answer but i will do the best that i can. I love you guys. Even the negative ones because we all wear blue and like it or not we are in this together.

[Will]

Was the loss of Willie Middlebrooks at CB also significant?

[Area 51]

They change coaches and staff and they go from champion contender to basement of the CFL in ONE season. I believe that highlights the importance of coaching and scheme.

Couldn't agree more. I've been the most vocal critic of the garbage offensive & defensive game plans and the need to overhaul both systems. Get in better schemes and Toronto can do the opposite of what Saskatchewan did last year.

We were 60 match&zone/40 man for most of the season and the last 3 games of the season were at least 75 percent man-to-man.

How much of an impact that change had on winning those last two games? Or what it just a coincidence?

Having the #1 scoring defence is never an aberration.

Have to disagree with you on this point. Being #1 in points allowed but near the bottom of so many other defensive categories just doesn't add up. It's like when a baseball pitcher has a great ERA but gave up a ton of walks & hits. Not sustainable.

Did the opponent march up and down the field and turn it over a couple times in the red zone? Did they have to settle for a few short FGs instead of TDs? Did a few dumb penalties stall some drives? If you try to rely on a "bend but don't break" defence, it's inevitably going to break. You can't just keep absorbing punches without getting knocked out. That's what happened in 2011.

I have seen teams make serious runs at all levels with the best offense and the worst defence. I have never seen it the other way around.

Huh? Have you never heard the expression "defence wins championships"? You must have missed Baltimore win the Super Bowl with a stiff like Trent Dilfer running a pathetic offence. Last two years the Jets have had a terrible offence and the equivalent of a scarecrow at QB, but they rode their defence all the way to the conference championships.

Look at New Orleans and Green Bay this year. Two of the greatest offensive attacks in history, but both had a lousy defence. Both got knocked out by opponents with a much weaker offence but great defense.

Really surprised and disappointed to hear someone who actually plays the game dismiss how much more critical it is to have a good defence
instead of a good offence.

We missed Belli on the interior of the line. Belli had a garbage man mentality and he enjoyed doing the dirty work. He took on most of the double team blocks so our other guys would have have 1 on 1 battles on the line.

Great point. And who was it that replaced Belli? Right.

So instead of Belli taking on a two blockers and clogging the middle you had Wroten thinking he was a pass rusher, not taking on any blocks and leaving his gap wide open. Sounds like it was pretty obvious for you to see - - couldn't the DLine coach figure that out and tell Wroten to keep his ass inside and collapse the pocket? Or was that message going up in smoke?

Going into game 17 we made some moves due to injury. Will Pile moved to WLB, Nick Clement moved to SAM and i moved to Free Safety. We were all difference makers in the last couple of games of the season but the best thing about it was that it all happened naturally. We better utilized players specific skill sets and we got better results.

I guess my question would be, what took so long to figure that out? Two different DCs and neither one could make the adjustments? Were they just too clueless about how to run a defence? What about the players - - didn't anyone step up and say "man, this isn't working out. I don't belong in this scheme, we need to change things up." Or was there too many players afraid to say anything because it might put their job in jeopardy?

That's the most telling statement that I've seen to explain the disaster of last year.

It took injuries to finally necessitate the proper changes on defence. Until then, it was just go out week after week and keep banging your head against the wall and getting the same losing results.

[Pinner31]

Huh? Have you never heard the expression "defence wins championships"? You must have missed Baltimore win the Super Bowl with a stiff like Trent Dilfer running a pathetic offence. Last two years the Jets have had a terrible offence and the equivalent of a scarecrow at QB, but they rode their defence all the way to the conference championships.

Look at New Orleans and Green Bay this year. Two of the greatest offensive attacks in history, but both had a lousy defence. Both got knocked out by opponents with a much weaker offence but great defense.

Really surprised and disappointed to hear someone who actually plays the game dismiss how much more critical it is to have a good defence
instead of a good offence.

Someone please tell me this GUY isn't serious........The Patriots have the WORST defense in the ENTIRE NFL and they're going to the SUPER BOWL. Baltimore is at HOME and they have one of the best defenses in the whole NFL. Besides, we're talking about the CFL, you CANNOT win games if you don't score points.......PERIOD.

[Area 51]

Someone please tell me this GUY isn't serious........The Patriots have the WORST defense in the ENTIRE NFL and they're going to the SUPER BOWL. Baltimore is at HOME and they have one of the best defenses in the whole NFL. Besides, we're talking about the CFL, you CANNOT win games if you don't score points.......PERIOD.

Any idea how many wins New England has against teams that finished above .500? One. Last week, against Baltimore. And if it hadn't been for Lee Evans doing his best Argo impersonation (dropping an easy catch) in the final seconds, New England would have been out.

Let's see how they do against the Giants.

[KCargosfan]

Huh? Have you never heard the expression "defence wins championships"? You must have missed Baltimore win the Super Bowl with a stiff like Trent Dilfer running a pathetic offence. Last two years the Jets have had a terrible offence and the equivalent of a scarecrow at QB, but they rode their defence all the way to the conference championships.

Look at New Orleans and Green Bay this year. Two of the greatest offensive attacks in history, but both had a lousy defence. Both got knocked out by opponents with a much weaker offence but great defense.

The 2000 Ravens offense ranked 14th in points scored and 16th in yards. Hardly pathetic.

The 2010 New York Jets offense was 13th in points and 11th in yards. Mark Sanchez threw for 3,300 yards and 17 TDS, not great, but not scarecrow.

The 2009 New York Jets offense was 17th in points and 20th in yards... and finished 9-7.

Conversely, the 1995 and 1997 Kansas City Chiefs had 2 of the best defenses I've seen in person and did nothing in the playoffs because the offense had to settle for field goal attempts.

You have to have something on offense, and we certainly did not in 2011.

[bluto]

... If you end the season with the fewest points allowed, then you were best at the most important stat a defence has...

[/thread hijack]
not saying that it wasn't at times an informative and instructive hijack though...

back to the impending free agency deadline discussion, then?

[KCargosfan]

JY -- I'm guessing you can't respond to this, but can you comment at all on the release of Lin-J Shell? This came somewhat of a surprise to some of us. I'm guessing it was a salary cap issue.

Even if you can't respond, thanks for coming on here. That info about missing Belli and the 2 linebackers is a great point that I never even considered. Hopefully the haters on here don't scare you away.

[JY26]

-No i am the biggest believer in the mantra that defences win championships. The Baltimore Ravens had Trent Dilfer at QB and he was far from great but the Ravens certainly didn't have the worst ranked offence that year. If i remember correctly they were middle of the pack. And in case you forgot i play for the Toronto Argonauts who have rode defences to the conference championship game 5 of my 8 seasons played. I definitely get it. What was i was saying is that you never see a team with the WORST offense have a dominant defence.
-Match Coverage takes time to implement. We had Wroten, Kuale, Cannon, and Smalls all starting in their first year running a complicated scheme. They also happen to be some of the most important positions in a match system. MLB, WLB, Nose Tackle and boundary corner. You just don't give up on what you believe because you face some adversity not to mention we finished with the #1 scoring defence in the league the prior season running the same system with most of the same people. We didn't just have a bad offence. We had a very bad offence. We had SEVERAL games this year where we didn't have 200 yards passing......IN THE CFL.

TDs against-3rd
Fewest Field Goals-4th
Avg gain per completion-2nd
Avg gain per Rush-2nd
Rushing yards per game-4th

Those are the stats that aren't easily effected by poor offensive production such as downs played or Passes attempted against, Rushes attempted against, Net Yards Passing against, Net Yards rushing against. If you play more plays because the offence can't stay on the field you are going to give up more yards. Thats simple math. Its better to look at the averages. They give you a better idea of how you stack up against the other defences.

[Area 51]

Match Coverage takes time to implement. We had Wroten, Kuale, Cannon, and Smalls all starting in their first year running a complicated scheme. They also happen to be some of the most important positions in a match system. MLB, WLB, Nose Tackle and boundary corner. You just don't give up on what you believe because you face some adversity not to mention we finished with the #1 scoring defence in the league the prior season running the same system with most of the same people.

So if the personnel is struggling to understand the coverage, why not just make the switch to man coverage? It doesn't get more basic than that. Was it because you didn't have the speed or athleticisim to run man defence?

"Believed" in the system? It's ok to believe in the tooth fairy for a little while, but eventually you have to face reality. Surely the players & coaches must have looked at the film every week and seen the scheme was an epic failure. It was so simple to see opponents march up and down the field with short pass after short pass - - the coverage was 5 to 10 yards off the receiver every time. Why? You'd rather give up a 12 play 80yd drive than risk giving up an 80yd pass?

And then there was the missed tackles. How many times did three or four different would be tacklers completely whiff and end up lying on the turf? You could say the defence was too tired - - problem is the broken tackles happened from start to finish.

Bottom line, there's no point in reminiscing what went wrong last year. I'm hoping Jones & Milanovich will come in and blow up the garbage schemes we've seen on offence & defence, and more than anything bring some accountability to what turned into a country club atmosphere.

[OV Argo]

There's plenty of cliches in sports - and they often get dragged out and used over & over on these type forums by the arm-chair QB experts - nature of the beast if you want to wade thru fan forums.

Appreciate your comments JY - and i get what you're saying. I'm looking forward to an improved Argo D this coming season - hopefully with a lot of the talent that is on the current roster, but maybe with a decent influx of some new guys playing (disappointed that Shell got cut at this point - i'm guessing mostly SMS posturing?

And, IMO - you can win in football with a great offence and an average type defence, AND, you can also win with a great defence and an average, not so spectacular offence. Plenty of examples of both happening in both the CFL and the NFL; so stop with the sweeping, definitive, cliche comments that are laughable please. And another factor is special teams - a big part of the game, and maybe moreso in the CFL. I want to see the Argos strong in all 3 facets of the game this coming season; and it starts with strong, smart coaching.

[JY26]

@Argofan87-i did leave out Willie Middlebrooks and i am sorry for that. We definitely missed his consistency and his physical presence.

@Area51-Im not a critic of the match system. I am a critic of the way that we didn't pick it up. It takes a lot of communication both pre snap and while the play is happening in order to run it effectively and we hadn't played together long enough in some spots to make it work. Playing aggressive man-to-man is definitely a more in your face style of defence but again the downside to it is that you are always vulnerable to the big play. Teams like Montreal and Sask's whole systems are designed to put heavy pressure on bump run defences. They have a whole trick bag of routes and combinations that put you in situation where you either have to trade men with the defender next to you or give up a step or 2 to your man and play him from trail technique. And just so you know Winnipeg, Edmonton, and the BC Lions who happen to be top 3 scoring defences in the league all ran forms of match coverage. I think if we would have had a whole training camp under Steinauer we would have a better understanding of how to play the defence. It was a lot to learn on the run.
If we were sitting in front of a television and we were watching game film it would be much easier to explain how easily a receiver can get wide open. All it really takes is for one defender to "match up" to the wrong receiver. There were 2 many times this year where we had 2 defenders on one man and another defender wide open.
Another issue we faced is that we got different game plans that other teams. They attacked us differently. So every week you have 4 first year starters different variations of plays for the first time. Its hard to get anything right the first time for most human beings. I'm not here making excuses. We didn't get it done. But what i would like you to understand that we aren't talking about a huge difference from one team to the next. We are talking about less than 7 points per game between the best scoring defence and the worst scoring defence. We are talking about finding a way to make about 5 more plays a game on offence and stopping 5 plays on defence.

[Area 51]

Im not a critic of the match system. I am a critic of the way that we didn't pick it up. It takes a lot of communication both pre snap and while the play is happening in order to run it effectively and we hadn't played together long enough in some spots to make it work. Playing aggressive man-to-man is definitely a more in your face style of defence but again the downside to it is that you are always vulnerable to the big play.

If the players, and presumably the coaches too, recognize that they don't understand the defensive scheme, why keep running the same thing week after week? Yes I acknowledge you're taking a chance in putting the CBs on an island and if they're too slow or too small you can get burned. But there's risks with every defence and if a scheme is clearly not working, why not dumb things down into a simple man coverage? It's the most basic defence you can run - - there's not going to be a huge learning curve with it.

Teams attacked you differently because you were the only defence in the league that consistently gave up a 10yd cushion to receivers every game. It was a no brainer! Why throw it downfield when you know the receiver is going to be wide open for an easy 6 or 7yd gain, with a good chance there's be a missed tackle to add on yards after the catch?

With all the apologists for last year's train wreck defence, nobody's given an answer yet as to why the defensive scheme wasn't changed. The best one I've heard so far is that you couldn't change the defence because the offence was so pathetic. Really? Guess what, the defence was just as bad. And I haven't heard Dalton Bell complaining that the offence couldn't get into a rythm and score any points because the defence couldn't get the ball back and get off the field. That's what I mean about the lack of accountability. Just give a straight up honest answer instead of looking for excuses and pointing fingers.

We didn't change the scheme even though our defence was getting dominated every week because:

A) We didn't have the athletes to run man coverage.
B) Our coaches didn't understand how to draw up man coverage.
C) The law of averages means the scheme should eventually be successful.
D) No matter how painfully obvious it is, never admit that your scheme is garbage.

[paulwoods13]

Thanks for the posts, JY. Really, really interesting insights. And you've been extremely courteous in responding to Area 51's relentless (and at this point totally unnecessary) attack on what happened last year.

Have to disagree with you on this point. Being #1 in points allowed but near the bottom of so many other defensive categories just doesn't add up. It's like when a baseball pitcher has a great ERA but gave up a ton of walks & hits. Not sustainable.

Area 51, despite your tendency to pile on over what happened in the past, you make a lot of interesting and valuable points. But you have completely lost me on this one. I don't know how you can describe a defence giving up the fewest points over 18 games as "not sustainable." Eighteen games is the entire season -- how much would it take to be considered sustainable? If you end the season with the fewest points allowed, then you were best at the most important stat a defence has. The objective is to win games, not surrender few first downs or few long bombs or anything else like that. You win games by outscoring the opposition -- to give yourself a chance to do that, you need to focus on not giving up points.

If a pitcher has a low ERA, he is doing his job and it doesn't matter how he gets there. He can give up three hits every inning, but if he then strikes out the side and allows no runs, he did what he was supposed to do.

[Will]

Is the free agency deadline still February 16 or thereabouts?

[zontar]

Aside from where Fantuz ends up I'm interested in seeing the climate change in WPG if they lose some key free agents.
Me thinks some previously well-thought of players might suddenly transform into "selfish" jerks and the GM of the team that signs them as "idiots" for "overpaying" said player(s).
Because it couldnt possibly be Mack's fault