Free Agency Countdown

[Area 51]

Exactly, our defence was the first in the league in 2010 but last year we had key injuries in our linebackers in 2011 and a couple of defensive linemen suffered foot and ankle injuries which hindered their play.

First in the league for what? Fewest points allowed in 2010, but that's a very shortsighted measurement of how great a defence is. Look at the underlying stats and get the full story...

2010 Toronto faced the most pass attempts but allowed the second highest completion rate against and had the fewest sacks. How do you interpret those numbers? To me it shows a soft and passive defence that doesn't make any plays and allows the opposing offence to dictate the flow. Fewest points allowed, but the rest of the defensive stats don't support that being sustainable. It was a complete anomolay.

2011 Toronto once again faced the most pass attempts, allowed the highest completion rate and had the second fewest sacks. Not surprisingly, Toronto went from fewest points allowed to most points allowed. Same problems as 2010. If "injuries" was the explanation for 2011, how do you explain the struggles in 2010?

I would never define a great defence by the number of points allowed. My idea of a "great defence" is one that is agressive and intimidating to the point that once they get a smell of blood it becomes a feeding frenzy. Winnipeg had that in 2011. You could sense the fear opposing QBs had going up against the Bomber defence.

Winnipeg faced the fewest pass attempts but had the most INTs and the most sacks and the lowest completion percentage allowed. That's an agressive defence that makes plays.

Last year's defence was embarassing. The offence was just as bad, but they brought in a new QB and a new OC. So what needs to change on defence....new scheme? New players? Or do you think standing pat will somehow produce a different result?

[Mulder]

First in the league for what? Fewest points allowed in 2010, but that's a very shortsighted measurement of how great a defence is. Look at the underlying stats and get the full story...

Wait..What? Isn't it the goal of the defence to to allow the least points? I honestly think it's one of the least shortsighted measurement. Infact, it's the end result of all the other defensive stats combined. The 2010 Argo's didn't lead in any other category.

2010 Toronto faced the most pass attempts but allowed the second highest completion rate against and had the fewest sacks. How do you interpret those numbers? To me it shows a soft and passive defence that doesn't make any plays and allows the opposing offence to dictate the flow. Fewest points allowed, but the rest of the defensive stats don't support that being sustainable. It was a complete anomolay.

That Quarterback in Montreal is partly how I see those numbers. We played Montreal 4 times in 2010. Average gain per pass against? Best 2nd in the league. We both know how Calvillo likes to his 5-8 yard passing gains.

You can also ask Winnipeg how leading the lead in sacks in 2010 worked for them.

2011 Toronto once again faced the most pass attempts, allowed the highest completion rate and had the second fewest sacks. Not surprisingly, Toronto went from fewest points allowed to most points allowed. Same problems as 2010. If "injuries" was the explanation for 2011, how do you explain the struggles in 2010?

Wasn't there some injuries on the defence as well? We stole games in 2010. We owned the ball over a minute and a half more as well. Special teams put us in good field placement more often. Giving the defence more time to stop before scoring.

Winnipeg held on to the ball over 2 minutes more in 2011 than 2010, Riders less 2 minutes. in 2011 than 2010. Is that any coincidence of the final results because of that?

I would never define a great defence by the number of points allowed. My idea of a "great defence" is one that is agressive and intimidating to the point that once they get a smell of blood it becomes a feeding frenzy. Winnipeg had that in 2011. You could sense the fear opposing QBs had going up against the Bomber defence.

Winnipeg faced the fewest pass attempts but had the most INTs and the most sacks and the lowest completion percentage allowed. That's an agressive defence that makes plays.

What was different between the 2010 Blue Bomber team and the 2011 Blue Bomber team?

Last year's defence was embarassing. The offence was just as bad, but they brought in a new QB and a new OC. So what needs to change on defence....new scheme? New players? Or do you think standing pat will somehow produce a different result?

I thought the last 4 games last season the defence started looking better, but that won't change how bad they were earlier in the season either. We were picked apart. An offence that moves the ball would help out a lot. How many times did we go 2 and out? Or did we kick the ball and it was still on our side of half when the other team took over?

[bluto]

beautifully illustrated MulderS.

the only stat i concern myself with on either side of the ball is the amounts of points generated or surrendered. yes, you can go further into the relationship of how the one effects the other vis a vis T.O.P and other things, but your main duty on offence is to create points and your main chore on defence is to deny points. you can accomplish either in a multitude of ways... and those ways will manipulate the lesser stats as a result.

bottom line: we need to be much better at stopping the opposition from scoring in 2012. doesn't matter how.

[Area 51]

Wait..What? Isn't it the goal of the defence to to allow the least points? I honestly think it's one of the least shortsighted measurement. Infact, it's the end result of all the other defensive stats combined. The 2010 Argo's didn't lead in any other category.

"...didn't lead in any other category." That's my point - - the underlying stats didn't support it. Might have looked good on paper to see the fewest points allowed, but the rest of the defensive numbers were a mess. It was an abberation that was not sustainable and caught up with them the next year. You've heard of statistical regerssion?

That Quarterback in Montreal is partly how I see those numbers. We played Montreal 4 times in 2010. Average gain per pass against? Best 2nd in the league. We both know how Calvillo likes to his 5-8 yard passing gains.

Once again, you're missing the full story. Played Montreal 4 times, but Calvillo only played in 3 of them. Remember the last game of 2010? Montreal scrub QBs didn't even break 150yds passing. So that explanation doesn't hold water.

You can also ask Winnipeg how leading the lead in sacks in 2010 worked for them.

Try looking beyond the obvious numbers. A 4-14 season is terrible, but nine of those loses were by 4 or fewer points. Winnipeg's brutal 2010 record was just as deceiving as Toronto's "league leading" defence allowing the fewest points. Winnipeg defence was also near the top of several other categories in 2010.

What was different between the 2010 Blue Bomber team and the 2011 Blue Bomber team?

Going from a good defence to a great defence? Having Tim Burke take over as DC and DB coach was a big part of it. Adjusted the scheme and you see the results - - Winnipeg didn't just sack the QB, they became a fearsome defence. Didn't have the all-important "fewest points allowed" but they did lead the league in several defensive categories.

I thought the last 4 games last season the defence started looking better, but that won't change how bad they were earlier in the season either. We were picked apart.

Fortunately, I don't think Chris Jones is going to come in and decide to just leave everything unchanged. The defensive scheme was pathetic and I'm sure he'll scrap it for soemthing much more aggressive. It'd be great to bring everybody back and win with the same guys, but the reality is there's too many weak links to stand pat for another year of continuity.

[Mulder]

"...didn't lead in any other category." That's my point - - the underlying stats didn't support it. Might have looked good on paper to see the fewest points allowed, but the rest of the defensive numbers were a mess. It was an abberation that was not sustainable and caught up with them the next year. You've heard of statistical regerssion?

I wasn't disagreeing with you. I also called it odd. It doesn't change the fact the goal is still the same. Allow less points than your opposition. The Argos did that in 2010.

Once again, you're missing the full story. Played Montreal 4 times, but Calvillo only played in 3 of them. Remember the last game of 2010? Montreal scrub QBs didn't even break 150yds passing. So that explanation doesn't hold water.

I think you've missed the full story on this one. Montreal completed 68.7% of their passes against us (which was still higher than our stat) Calvillo completed 76.3% of his passes vs us. (97 of 129) . And yes, I remember that last game in 2010. Hamilton completed 69.2 as well.

Try looking beyond the obvious numbers. A 4-14 season is terrible, but nine of those loses were by 4 or fewer points. Winnipeg's brutal 2010 record was just as deceiving as Toronto's "league leading" defence allowing the fewest points. Winnipeg defence was also near the top of several other categories in 2010.

I'm confused, your telling us to look beyond the numbers while at the same time shoving other numbers to the forfront? The end result is 9 times Winnipeg couldn't hold onto their lead or come back, and wasn't good enough, lost.

Going from a good defence to a great defence? Having Tim Burke take over as DC and DB coach was a big part of it. Adjusted the scheme and you see the results - - Winnipeg didn't just sack the QB, they became a fearsome defence. Didn't have the all-important "fewest points allowed" but they did lead the league in several defensive categories.

Because stumbling into the playoffs (1-3) Almost 0-4. Is a sign of a great defence. You seem so high about Winnipeg last season makes me think your actually a bomber fan. Either that or you got caught up in swaggerville. I dunno.

Wasn't it you I disagreed with last year? You predicted a good season for Sask ? Durant an elite qb? I predicted a flop? #justsaying

Fortunately, I don't think Chris Jones is going to come in and decide to just leave everything unchanged. The defensive scheme was pathetic and I'm sure he'll scrap it for soemthing much more aggressive. It'd be great to bring everybody back and win with the same guys, but the reality is there's too many weak links to stand pat for another year of continuity.

Yes last year was bad, I'm sure Chris Jones is going to make some changes. I also don't believe you can overhaul an entire defence and expect success.

[ArgoRavi]

Out of curiosity, how many new starters do you all believe the Argos will have on defence? How many new starters on defence should they have? I don't think that Jones will completely clean house on defence but I suspect that we will see at least four new starters along with a more aggressive scheme.

[OV Argo]

Out of curiosity, how many new starters do you all believe the Argos will have on defence? How many new starters on defence should they have? I don't think that Jones will completely clean house on defence but I suspect that we will see at least four new starters along with a more aggressive scheme.

Yeah - that should be interesting Ravi; someone said in this thread that maybe Foley would be the only guy on D whose job is safe - and that could be right. Though i hope they retain a lot of the vets (all of them even) to give them a shot at a tough, competitive TC.

The D-line, outside of Foley, was a major disappointment last season IMO - for some reason they just weren't consistent or that strong; but I'd like to see all 3 of Flemons, Huntley and Wroten back, if they are healthy and hungry, to see if they could play to their potential; also like to see Greg Alexandre get a real look to see if he could contribute at DT; and Jon Pierre-Etienne could be a nice FA pick-up if he could pan-out at the CFL level - good play-making D-Lineman in CIS ball; and bring in some new bodies for competition too; just don't get rid of guys for the sake of change.

LBs - will Pottinger start at MLB again? will an older Eiben be retained with his salary? could Pile be a force back at OLB again? - like to think those 3 could form a very good LB unit, but i won't be surprised to see changes, and possibly 3 different guys starting? - doubt there will be 2 starting NI linebackers.

DBs - are older guys like Parker and Younger going to be kept and as starters? I really like Shell and hope he is there still; i believe McCullough was getting an NFL try-out? Could Matt Black step-up to start at corner? Might be several changes in the D-backfield? - but again i hope a number of guys are not cut just for the sake of change ...

... cause IMO the current roster features a lot of good, talented defensive players; so sure, bring in some new talent for TC competition, but i hope the new coaching staff is not going to make wholesale changes before TC just for the sake of some sort of house cleaning / their stamp on the team statement?

The Stamps D that Jones was part of has featured quite the revolving door of new faces over the past few seasons - not much continuity (maybe injury issues forced a lot of that though?) - featured a lot of ex-NFL roster guys = plenty of talent but IMO they never gelled into a consistent, tough defence. The new staff may bring in a bunch of other such ex-NFL types for TC, and the Argos' D could see a lot of changes, but it's not that easy to mold a really good defence - especially without some vets for leadership - and with a bunch of guys who are not used to playing together. Jones' D in Calgary last year did seem to feature a lot of subbing with some back-ups getting real action - that's a smart thing IMO.

[Area 51]

I'm confused, your telling us to look beyond the numbers while at the same time shoving other numbers to the forfront? The end result is 9 times Winnipeg couldn't hold onto their lead or come back, and wasn't good enough, lost.

Let me try to clarify again - - look beyond the obvious numbers, ie. Win/Loss record, points allowed, when you're evaluating performance. You could look at a game that was 31- 24 and say wow, that was a close one! But if the winner dominated for 59 minutes and the loser managed two TDs in the final minute, would you still try to say it was a tight game?

Win/Loss record aside, most stats in 2010 pointed to Winnipeg having a much better team than their record indicted. So knowing that they're close to being a good team, it didn't make sense to blow things up. And aside from "points allowed" in 2010, most of the other stats indicated Toronto was much worse than on defence than it might first appear to someone unwilling/unable to look past the obvious. So naturally Toronto decided to stand pat. How did that decision work out?

Because stumbling into the playoffs (1-3) Almost 0-4. Is a sign of a great defence. You seem so high about Winnipeg last season makes me think your actually a bomber fan. Either that or you got caught up in swaggerville. I dunno.

I loved Winnipeg's defensive approach last year. That was my ideal of what a great defense should be. The identity of a team almost always comes from it's defence. They were agressive, knocked people out, made big plays and most importantly they intimated the opposition. You get a defence that does that and the team will have success regardless of how the offence performs.

Wasn't it you I disagreed with last year? You predicted a good season for Sask ? Durant an elite qb? I predicted a flop? #justsaying

That's entirely possible, since much of what I post here is met with disagreement from posters as well as players. I'm sure you're familiar with my comments on Byron Parker that got national media coverage and ended up getting me banned from further posts.

I definitely consider Durant one of the top QBs in the league. Riders were a complete mess last year just like Toronto, but in three years as a starter Durant has two Grey Cup appearances. If not for a teammate that couldn't count, he'd have a ring. You can't name a tougher QB. And most importantly, he's not afraid to be aggressive and take a chance on making a play.

\

Out of curiosity, how many new starters do you all believe the Argos will have on defence? How many new starters on defence should they have? I don't think that Jones will completely clean house on defence but I suspect that we will see at least four new starters along with a more aggressive scheme.

Earlier this off season I projected they needed to immediately replace two starters on defence and should look to upgrade seven others.

http://www.argofans.com/showthread.p...-Cards-DEFENCE

Probably not realistic to expect the new staff to turn over 3/4 of the defence, but anywhere from four to six new starters would not surprise me at all. Anything less than two new starters and I'd say it's going to be more of the same struggles on D.

[argolio]

Win/Loss record aside, most stats in 2010 pointed to Winnipeg having a much better team than their record indicted. So knowing that they're close to being a good team, it didn't make sense to blow things up. And aside from "points allowed" in 2010, most of the other stats indicated Toronto was much worse than on defence than it might first appear to someone unwilling/unable to look past the obvious. So naturally Toronto decided to stand pat. How did that decision work out?

In hindsight obviously not that well, but I see no huge shame in opting to go with mostly the same team and coaches that took the team from 3-15 to 9-9 and a playoff win. Different story if no drastic changes were made after this past season.

I loved Winnipeg's defensive approach last year. That was my ideal of what a great defense should be. The identity of a team almost always comes from it's defence. They were agressive, knocked people out, made big plays and most importantly they intimated the opposition. You get a defence that does that and the team will have success regardless of how the offence performs.

Fair enough, but that was different than our defensive approach during our 2003-07 success. We were aggressive and intimidating at times, but also passive and reactive at other times, often for long stretches of a game. At its best, that defense adjusted well at the half or on the fly. And despite not having a great offense most of those years, we were pretty consistent winners.

Winnipeg's D was interesting to watch but B.C. impressed me more -- starting Khalif Mitchell at tackle in August, going to the 4-3 full-time, and winning all but one of their remaining games. Give me winnerville over swaggerville.

[jerrym]

I hope the Argos keep Picard, Parker, Pile, Potinger, Eiben, and Buzbee in that order. Picard is the foundation of the offensive line; Parker, although not a great cover guy, is the ultimate ball hawk; Pile is a leader and hard tackler; Potinger and Eiben provide Canadian depth and the potential to start; and Buzbee is a solid backup in a position where backups get a significant amount of playing time. Bell and Ishola have shown little; Murphy, although once great, is old and expensive; Robertson has gone downhill. I like the resigning of Black, am comfortable with Johnson (a fine utility player although we need to focus on finding a replacement, such as Canadian free agent Calvin McCarty, at his age by net year at the latest), but wonder if Younger, whom I have always liked, is past his prime.

[Pinner31]

Hello everyone, it seems that everyone is EXCITED about the change......but one statistic that everyone seems to be forgetting is that the defence that gave up the most TD's last year were the Calgary Stampeders. Does that not matter?

[Will]

Hello everyone, it seems that everyone is EXCITED about the change......but one statistic that everyone seems to be forgetting is that the defence that gave up the most TD's last year were the Calgary Stampeders. Does that not matter?

The Stampeders still finished with 476 points against versus 498 points against by the Argos.

I was just looking at the standings to check that out BTW, and realized not one team gave up 500+ points this season.

[JY26]

Just throwing out a few facts and few opinions

-Darian Durant is one of toughest QBs in the CFL and definitely one of the most athletic but i wouldn't put him in the same category as a Calvillo, Ray, or Burris. The Riders went from back to back Grey Cup appearances to the worst team in the CFL. They change coaches and staff and they go from champion contender to basement of the CFL in ONE season. I believe that highlights the importance of coaching and scheme.

-Match coverage is one of the most complicated schemes that a defence can run but if mastered it affords the defence the ability to make adjustments on the fly and problem solve on the field as opposed to waiting to go to the sideline to make adjustments. As a complete defence we didn't pick it up fast enough (fact). I'd like to say to those of you that say we didn't play any man-to-man coverage this year that you are wrong. We were 60 match&zone/40 man for most of the season and the last 3 games of the season were at least 75 percent man-to-man.

-Some statistics have a stronger bearing on a team's success than others. In my opinion some statistics are cosmetic and some can have a huge impact on the outcome of games. In my years of playing turnovers have shown to be the number 1 statistic that effects winning and losing. We had 59 turnovers on offense this year and we only got back 25 on defence. Thats 59 extra possessions. Even if the opposing offence goes 2 and out after every turnover that is still at least 118 more plays over the course of a season.

-Having the #1 scoring defence is never an aberration. They record the statistics over an 18 game season. In order to lead the league in scoring defence there HAS to be both consistency and efficiency. EVERY defensive coordinator i have ever played for listed "limit the number of points scored" number one on his goal/priority list.
A cosmetic and often times misleading statistic in my opinion is passing yardage surrendered. Winnipeg's defence had an amazing year statiscally speaking. They made a lot of plays and they were fun to watch however they had a tendency to give up the big play at worst times. They finished one game above .500 at 10-8. Thats one game better than our record from the previous year.

-I have seen teams make serious runs at all levels with the best offense and the worst defence. I have never seen it the other way around. Offensive efficiency is one of the areas of the game that indirectly has a VERY strong effect on a defence's play. There are several main factors where having a good/efficient offence seriously effects the game. Take for example Montreal. Although they definitely have some good players i don't think they have a strong defence at all. Anthony Calvillo's accuracy and efficiency means that they hold the ball for the majority of the game and correspondingly the defence is on the field for less time. Less time equals less plays. Less plays equals fresher legs in the fourth quarter. Less plays also means that an offence has less attempts to figure a defence out. Another big advantage of having a strong offense is that you are often playing with a lead which allows a defence to gamble more often and more importantly it makes the game much more predictable. It is Montreal's offence that stops their opponents run game not their defence. The way Montreal controls the ball also makes it difficult for the opposing team's offence to get in a rhythm. On the flip side of that a team with a bad/inefficient offence faces more time on the field, more snaps, more punts, (which is a defensive dominated special team) and a greater variation of plays. When an offensive coordinator KNOWS he is going to get the ball back you see all they creativity come out...lol. You get run, pass, screens, play-action and you get them all game long. Couple that with running a complicated system and im sure you can understand why we didn't have much success on the defensive side of the ball. When playing on a football team that struggles offensively you can't afford to give up the big touchdown and especially not early in the game. If you allow a team to score early it can kill a struggling offence by putting too much pressure on them.

-In my opinion one of the biggest differences in the play of the defences from the 2010 and 2011 teams were the loss of Adriano Belli and the injuries to Kevin Eiben and Jason Pottinger. Not only did they both have SERIOUS injuries they also happened to play side by side on the field. The communication between the MLB and rest of the LBs is VITAL for playing against the run and the pass. (And even MORESO when playing match coverage) So not only did we have 2 first year starters at LB but we also had them playing side by side. This is in no way a knock on 1st year starters Ejiro Kuale or rookie Anthony Cannon but you can't replace SEVENTEEN years worth of experience in one season. Both Cannon and Kuale are special athletes and as they learn more about the CFL game they will only get better and better. We missed Belli on the interior of the line. Belli had a garbage man mentality and he enjoyed doing the dirty work. He took on most of the double team blocks so our other guys would have have 1 on 1 battles on the line. We missed that kind of mentality out there this year. the fact that we had 3 first year starters right in the middle of our defence was a challenge that we had some trouble adjusting to. Going into game 17 we made some moves due to injury. Will Pile moved to WLB, Nick Clement moved to SAM and i moved to Free Safety. We were all difference makers in the last couple of games of the season but the best thing about it was that it all happened naturally. We better utilized players specific skill sets and we got better results.

Like i said in my other post i want to be close to you guys and share ideas and opinions with you so that we can do this thing together. I check the forum pretty often so feel free to ask questions. Some things i can't/won't answer but i will do the best that i can. I love you guys. Even the negative ones because we all wear blue and like it or not we are in this together.

[Will]

Was the loss of Willie Middlebrooks at CB also significant?

[KCargosfan]

JY -- I'm guessing you can't respond to this, but can you comment at all on the release of Lin-J Shell? This came somewhat of a surprise to some of us. I'm guessing it was a salary cap issue.

Even if you can't respond, thanks for coming on here. That info about missing Belli and the 2 linebackers is a great point that I never even considered. Hopefully the haters on here don't scare you away.

[Area 51]

They change coaches and staff and they go from champion contender to basement of the CFL in ONE season. I believe that highlights the importance of coaching and scheme.

Couldn't agree more. I've been the most vocal critic of the garbage offensive & defensive game plans and the need to overhaul both systems. Get in better schemes and Toronto can do the opposite of what Saskatchewan did last year.

We were 60 match&zone/40 man for most of the season and the last 3 games of the season were at least 75 percent man-to-man.

How much of an impact that change had on winning those last two games? Or what it just a coincidence?

Having the #1 scoring defence is never an aberration.

Have to disagree with you on this point. Being #1 in points allowed but near the bottom of so many other defensive categories just doesn't add up. It's like when a baseball pitcher has a great ERA but gave up a ton of walks & hits. Not sustainable.

Did the opponent march up and down the field and turn it over a couple times in the red zone? Did they have to settle for a few short FGs instead of TDs? Did a few dumb penalties stall some drives? If you try to rely on a "bend but don't break" defence, it's inevitably going to break. You can't just keep absorbing punches without getting knocked out. That's what happened in 2011.

I have seen teams make serious runs at all levels with the best offense and the worst defence. I have never seen it the other way around.

Huh? Have you never heard the expression "defence wins championships"? You must have missed Baltimore win the Super Bowl with a stiff like Trent Dilfer running a pathetic offence. Last two years the Jets have had a terrible offence and the equivalent of a scarecrow at QB, but they rode their defence all the way to the conference championships.

Look at New Orleans and Green Bay this year. Two of the greatest offensive attacks in history, but both had a lousy defence. Both got knocked out by opponents with a much weaker offence but great defense.

Really surprised and disappointed to hear someone who actually plays the game dismiss how much more critical it is to have a good defence
instead of a good offence.

We missed Belli on the interior of the line. Belli had a garbage man mentality and he enjoyed doing the dirty work. He took on most of the double team blocks so our other guys would have have 1 on 1 battles on the line.

Great point. And who was it that replaced Belli? Right.

So instead of Belli taking on a two blockers and clogging the middle you had Wroten thinking he was a pass rusher, not taking on any blocks and leaving his gap wide open. Sounds like it was pretty obvious for you to see - - couldn't the DLine coach figure that out and tell Wroten to keep his ass inside and collapse the pocket? Or was that message going up in smoke?

Going into game 17 we made some moves due to injury. Will Pile moved to WLB, Nick Clement moved to SAM and i moved to Free Safety. We were all difference makers in the last couple of games of the season but the best thing about it was that it all happened naturally. We better utilized players specific skill sets and we got better results.

I guess my question would be, what took so long to figure that out? Two different DCs and neither one could make the adjustments? Were they just too clueless about how to run a defence? What about the players - - didn't anyone step up and say "man, this isn't working out. I don't belong in this scheme, we need to change things up." Or was there too many players afraid to say anything because it might put their job in jeopardy?

That's the most telling statement that I've seen to explain the disaster of last year.

It took injuries to finally necessitate the proper changes on defence. Until then, it was just go out week after week and keep banging your head against the wall and getting the same losing results.

[JY26]

-No i am the biggest believer in the mantra that defences win championships. The Baltimore Ravens had Trent Dilfer at QB and he was far from great but the Ravens certainly didn't have the worst ranked offence that year. If i remember correctly they were middle of the pack. And in case you forgot i play for the Toronto Argonauts who have rode defences to the conference championship game 5 of my 8 seasons played. I definitely get it. What was i was saying is that you never see a team with the WORST offense have a dominant defence.
-Match Coverage takes time to implement. We had Wroten, Kuale, Cannon, and Smalls all starting in their first year running a complicated scheme. They also happen to be some of the most important positions in a match system. MLB, WLB, Nose Tackle and boundary corner. You just don't give up on what you believe because you face some adversity not to mention we finished with the #1 scoring defence in the league the prior season running the same system with most of the same people. We didn't just have a bad offence. We had a very bad offence. We had SEVERAL games this year where we didn't have 200 yards passing......IN THE CFL.

TDs against-3rd
Fewest Field Goals-4th
Avg gain per completion-2nd
Avg gain per Rush-2nd
Rushing yards per game-4th

Those are the stats that aren't easily effected by poor offensive production such as downs played or Passes attempted against, Rushes attempted against, Net Yards Passing against, Net Yards rushing against. If you play more plays because the offence can't stay on the field you are going to give up more yards. Thats simple math. Its better to look at the averages. They give you a better idea of how you stack up against the other defences.

[Pinner31]

Huh? Have you never heard the expression "defence wins championships"? You must have missed Baltimore win the Super Bowl with a stiff like Trent Dilfer running a pathetic offence. Last two years the Jets have had a terrible offence and the equivalent of a scarecrow at QB, but they rode their defence all the way to the conference championships.

Look at New Orleans and Green Bay this year. Two of the greatest offensive attacks in history, but both had a lousy defence. Both got knocked out by opponents with a much weaker offence but great defense.

Really surprised and disappointed to hear someone who actually plays the game dismiss how much more critical it is to have a good defence
instead of a good offence.

Someone please tell me this GUY isn't serious........The Patriots have the WORST defense in the ENTIRE NFL and they're going to the SUPER BOWL. Baltimore is at HOME and they have one of the best defenses in the whole NFL. Besides, we're talking about the CFL, you CANNOT win games if you don't score points.......PERIOD.

[OV Argo]

There's plenty of cliches in sports - and they often get dragged out and used over & over on these type forums by the arm-chair QB experts - nature of the beast if you want to wade thru fan forums.

Appreciate your comments JY - and i get what you're saying. I'm looking forward to an improved Argo D this coming season - hopefully with a lot of the talent that is on the current roster, but maybe with a decent influx of some new guys playing (disappointed that Shell got cut at this point - i'm guessing mostly SMS posturing?

And, IMO - you can win in football with a great offence and an average type defence, AND, you can also win with a great defence and an average, not so spectacular offence. Plenty of examples of both happening in both the CFL and the NFL; so stop with the sweeping, definitive, cliche comments that are laughable please. And another factor is special teams - a big part of the game, and maybe moreso in the CFL. I want to see the Argos strong in all 3 facets of the game this coming season; and it starts with strong, smart coaching.

[Area 51]

Someone please tell me this GUY isn't serious........The Patriots have the WORST defense in the ENTIRE NFL and they're going to the SUPER BOWL. Baltimore is at HOME and they have one of the best defenses in the whole NFL. Besides, we're talking about the CFL, you CANNOT win games if you don't score points.......PERIOD.

Any idea how many wins New England has against teams that finished above .500? One. Last week, against Baltimore. And if it hadn't been for Lee Evans doing his best Argo impersonation (dropping an easy catch) in the final seconds, New England would have been out.

Let's see how they do against the Giants.