The Jim Barker Love-In thread

[OV Argo]

Posted this on the game thread, but it applies even more here:

Winning a championship pretty much validates everything Barker has done since 2010 -- naming Lemon as the starter, cutting him, signing and cutting Brannagan, taking the heat after Boyd was cut and after other popular players were released or not re-signed, his draft strategy, and anything else you can think of.

"validates" - what does that mean?; has every single move Barker has made - now with GC hindsight - been a stroke of football genius or something?

[294life]

Posted this on the game thread, but it applies even more here:

Winning a championship pretty much validates everything Barker has done since 2010 -- naming Lemon as the starter, cutting him, signing and cutting Brannagan, taking the heat after Boyd was cut and after other popular players were released or not re-signed, his draft strategy, and anything else you can think of.

Not only that but it validates the 2005,06,07 eastern final losses and the 3-15 and 4-14 seasons. As Pinball said in 2003: 'It was the dinner we had to eat to become champions'

[paulwoods13]

It comes down to character. Those QB's didn't have the experience in the CFL to provide the needed leadership. I had suggested the Argos should acquire Jarious Jackson, who I believe would have been a big asset for Lemon getting adjusted to the CFL. The Argos ultimately could never win the big one until they found some leaders at the all-important QB position. That's why I believe not having an experienced CFL QB set the team back.

Invader, they were 3-15 without those guys, and 9-9 with them. You seem to be suggesting that if only we had Jarious Jackson in 2010 we'd have been better than 9-9. I don't buy it. No one loves the QBs we had for those two years, but I'll take a six-game improvement over 3-15 as the kind of "setback" a GM should be praised for. They were head and shoulders better than what we had before.

[argos1873]

Invader, they were 3-15 without those guys, and 9-9 with them. You seem to be suggesting that if only we had Jarious Jackson in 2010 we'd have been better than 9-9. I don't buy it. No one loves the QBs we had for those two years, but I'll take a six-game improvement over 3-15 as the kind of "setback" a GM should be praised for. They were head and shoulders better than what we had before.

And you seem to suggest that the QBs were the only difference between a 3-15 and a 9-9 season. I don't buy that either. We had a real RB in Boyd, and a much better receiving corps in 2010. I actually believe that the Argos would have been better sticking with Kerry Joseph, than going with Cleo Lemon in 2010.

[paulwoods13]

And you seem to suggest that the QBs were the only difference between a 3-15 and a 9-9 season. I don't buy that either. We had a real RB in Boyd, and a much better receiving corps in 2010.

I can see how it looks that way, but that's not at all what I said or meant. The QBs were only part of the story, obviously. But again -- we went from 3-15 and hopeless to 9-9 and a playoff win. A step back? I don't think so.

I actually believe that the Argos would have been better sticking with Kerry Joseph, than going with Cleo Lemon in 2010.

I'm sure you're not the only person who feels that way. I'm not in that group.

[argos1873]

I can see how it looks that way, but that's not at all what I said or meant. The QBs were only part of the story, obviously. But again -- we went from 3-15 and hopeless to 9-9 and a playoff win. A step back? I don't think so.



I'm sure you're not the only person who feels that way. I'm not in that group.

Oh well, you can remain outside that group all you want. I still don't believe the QB position had anything to do with the transformation from a terrible team, to a mediocre team. There were improvements in other areas of the team, and QB was not one of them. Let's put it this way: Joseph is still in the league, and where is Lemon? Better football minds than you or I have deemed him to be football scrap, and he isn't going to return. I'm pretty sure the Argos would have been 9-9 or possibly better sticking with Joseph, as QB wasn't really the problem, or at least the worst of problems, in those terrible years.

[argolio]

"validates" - what does that mean?; has every single move Barker has made - now with GC hindsight - been a stroke of football genius or something?

Because it clearly led us to this point, yes it has. Pure genius.

And you seem to suggest that the QBs were the only difference between a 3-15 and a 9-9 season. I don't buy that either. We had a real RB in Boyd, and a much better receiving corps in 2010. I actually believe that the Argos would have been better sticking with Kerry Joseph, than going with Cleo Lemon in 2010.

A much better receiving corps in 2010? Hardly anyone was saying that on the previous version of this forum. Heck, on this forum many people weren't convinced about our 2012 receivers earlier this season.

[paulwoods13]

Oh well, you can remain outside that group all you want. I still don't believe the QB position had anything to do with the transformation from a terrible team, to a mediocre team. There were improvements in other areas of the team, and QB was not one of them. Let's put it this way: Joseph is still in the league, and where is Lemon? Better football minds than you or I have deemed him to be football scrap, and he isn't going to return. I'm pretty sure the Argos would have been 9-9 or possibly better sticking with Joseph, as QB wasn't really the problem, or at least the worst of problems, in those terrible years.

I'm not interested in debating the merits of Lemon and Joseph. One guy is out of the league and the other guy is at best a late-career backup who happened to be elevated to starter because his team had no other viable QB options. I entered into this discussion to take issue with the notion that signing Lemon et al "set the Argos back." No one has as yet given any explanation as to how going 10-10 in 2010 constituted a step back from 3-15 in 2009.

[KCargosfan]

It's a good thing we didn't take Barker out into the street and shoot him like I posted last spring.

[Will]

We just won the Grey Cup people, is it really necessary to rehash the epic nightmare that was the Kerry Joseph and Cleo Lemon eras.

[KCargosfan]

We just won the Grey Cup people, is it really necessary to rehash the epic nightmare that was the Kerry Joseph and Cleo Lemon eras.

Bingooooooooo

[dmont]

I'm all for Barker being resigned, but not so much to do with winning the Grey Cup.

I knew Barker was good when our backups beat the crap out of Hamilton's starters, who had a whole lot to play for. It shows we have depth, and that we'll be ok in the event of injury or if we lose anyone to free agency. Looks like he's building that depth and continuity.

[argos1873]

I'm all for Barker being resigned, but not so much to do with winning the Grey Cup.

I knew Barker was good when our backups beat the crap out of Hamilton's starters, who had a whole lot to play for. It shows we have depth, and that we'll be ok in the event of injury or if we lose anyone to free agency. Looks like he's building that depth and continuity.

I knew Barker was good when he yelled "He's a keeper!!" after Kackert raced down the field in Winnipeg last pre-season. A good GM, not a really a good coach

[flafson]

I think he's a great GM and not so good coach. He must stay IMO.

[BATKINSON001]

Barker should stay on as GM. I hope that the team doesn't change too much next season... we got a good combination of players so far.

[Invader]

I'm not interested in debating the merits of Lemon and Joseph. One guy is out of the league and the other guy is at best a late-career backup who happened to be elevated to starter because his team had no other viable QB options. I entered into this discussion to take issue with the notion that signing Lemon et al "set the Argos back." No one has as yet given any explanation as to how going 10-10 in 2010 constituted a step back from 3-15 in 2009.

I never said signing Lemon set the Argros back, it was the non-signing of Jarious Jackson (or perhaps another veteran CFL QB). The problem with Lemon was his character, not his win/loss record. There was no QB in the organization who had any experience or who Cleo could learn from. Learn how to be a leader of men instead of being a whiney little puke. Learn how to lead by example instead of smiling and laughing when he made a mistake. Jarious would have set him straight from the first practice how a professional QB acts and how to lead the team. Jarious is no superstar QB but I believe his qualities would have been beneficial in the development of Lemon, making him a better QB, and one who might still be with the Argos today. The team had to start over at QB after Lemon left...which did set them back. Those two seasons would have been much better spent developing a different QB...or at least a different Lemon. Just ask Travis Lulay, Buck Pierce and Mike Reilly how instrumental Jarious was in their development. He was their "eyes and ears" on the sidelines. Who did Lemon have...Bell and Dorsey?

[ArgoRavi]

I never said signing Lemon set the Argros back, it was the non-signing of Jarious Jackson (or perhaps another veteran CFL QB). The problem with Lemon was his character, not his win/loss record. There was no QB in the organization who had any experience or who Cleo could learn from. Learn how to be a leader of men instead of being a whiney little puke. Learn how to lead by example instead of smiling and laughing when he made a mistake. Jarious would have set him straight from the first practice how a professional QB acts and how to lead the team. Jarious is no superstar QB but I believe his qualities would have been beneficial in the development of Lemon, making him a better QB, and one who might still be with the Argos today. The team had to start over at QB after Lemon left...which did set them back. Those two seasons would have been much better spent developing a different QB...or at least a different Lemon. Just ask Travis Lulay, Buck Pierce and Mike Reilly how instrumental Jarious was in their development. He was their "eyes and ears" on the sidelines. Who did Lemon have...Bell and Dorsey?

Jackson had just come off shoulder surgery and was in no position to play so it would have been a bad move to sign him as a free agent at that point. Perhaps they could have offered him a coaching position instead but it is doubtful that he would have taken it then. The only other available veteran QBs at that point were Buck Pierce, Kerry Joseph and Cody Pickett.

[AngeloV]

I never said signing Lemon set the Argros back, it was the non-signing of Jarious Jackson (or perhaps another veteran CFL QB). The problem with Lemon was his character, not his win/loss record. There was no QB in the organization who had any experience or who Cleo could learn from. Learn how to be a leader of men instead of being a whiney little puke. Learn how to lead by example instead of smiling and laughing when he made a mistake. Jarious would have set him straight from the first practice how a professional QB acts and how to lead the team. Jarious is no superstar QB but I believe his qualities would have been beneficial in the development of Lemon, making him a better QB, and one who might still be with the Argos today. The team had to start over at QB after Lemon left...which did set them back. Those two seasons would have been much better spent developing a different QB...or at least a different Lemon. Just ask Travis Lulay, Buck Pierce and Mike Reilly how instrumental Jarious was in their development. He was their "eyes and ears" on the sidelines. Who did Lemon have...Bell and Dorsey?

You talk as if Jackson has proven to be a good starter in this league. He has not, or he wouldn't have been passed on the depth chart in B.C. everytime they bring in somebody new. Pierce, Lulay and Riley. Furthermore, Jackson sure as hell didn't look like he should be a starter in the 3.75 games he played when Ray went down in Montreal. I believe they were 1-3 in those games and had difficulty scoring 20 points. Hmmmm, kind of sounds like the Lemon led Argos.

[paulwoods13]

I never said signing Lemon set the Argros back, it was the non-signing of Jarious Jackson (or perhaps another veteran CFL QB). The problem with Lemon was his character, not his win/loss record. There was no QB in the organization who had any experience or who Cleo could learn from. Learn how to be a leader of men instead of being a whiney little puke. Learn how to lead by example instead of smiling and laughing when he made a mistake. Jarious would have set him straight from the first practice how a professional QB acts and how to lead the team. Jarious is no superstar QB but I believe his qualities would have been beneficial in the development of Lemon, making him a better QB, and one who might still be with the Argos today. The team had to start over at QB after Lemon left...which did set them back. Those two seasons would have been much better spent developing a different QB...or at least a different Lemon. Just ask Travis Lulay, Buck Pierce and Mike Reilly how instrumental Jarious was in their development. He was their "eyes and ears" on the sidelines. Who did Lemon have...Bell and Dorsey?

Your exact quote was: "Barker got off on the wrong foot when he selected Lemon, Bell and Dorsey as his QB's the first season, which set the team back." Made no mention of Jarious or any other vetern QB in that post.

[Invader]

Your exact quote was: "Barker got off on the wrong foot when he selected Lemon, Bell and Dorsey as his QB's the first season, which set the team back." Made no mention of Jarious or any other vetern QB in that post.

I guess I don't communicate that well, but the one quibble I had in this Barker love-in was his decision to bring Hamdan, Dorsey and Lemon to camp his first season (with Bell given a free pass). I questioned at the time why no QB with CFL experience was considered, by free-agency or by trade?

I believe a QB's experience in the CFL is more important to his success that his physical or even mental capabilities. You'd like them to have a rocket arm, be fleet of foot and score 38 on his Wonderlick (like Mike Reilly) but it isn't essential. It's his CFL experience which counts more in my book. That's why I believed that if the Argos had a J. Jackson, J. Maas or K. Joseph, for instance, on the roster (as a backup instead of Dorsey) in Lemon's first season, that would have helped Cleo become a better QB. That's what I was trying to say.

I never once said Jarious should be the starter or even the No. 2. Although I did believe he was a very good QB who never really got a chance to prove himself. I also said he'd probably need to play several consecutive games to regain the form he showed in the 2nd half of 2007 (when he had league-leading QB stats, leading the Lions to a record 14-3-1 finish.)

I don't know Jarious, I can only go by what his teammates have said. Like voting him a team captain (while he was the No. 3 QB)...Lulay saying Jarious was his "eyes and ears" on the sidelines and helped him so much in winning the Grey Cup...Or Reilly praising Jarious as being instrumental in his development last season.

Yes, Jarious had a bad shoulder but he still made on the Lions roster in 2010. Buono said he was "available". Not because they didn't want him, but they owed him the opportunity to go to another team where he'd have a better chance at furthering his career.

My take on Barker's decision (to only try out ex-NFL QB's) was he didn't want a mediocre CFL-vet around because the Argos would be compelled to start him, with the pressure to win "now"...rather than develop a young QB who had the potential to lead them to multiple championships. An admirable goal, but I still believe the Argos and Lemon would have been better off with a veteran CFL QB on the roster.

I realize many will say that I'm wrong. That Lemon played great or that all NFL QB's are superior because they're in the NFL (according to Brunt)...that Lemon didn't need any guidance or support from a veteran...or a team-mate spotting for him on the sidelines. On that we disagree, but the proof is in the pudding.