Should the Bombers head West?

[Mulder]

I wouldn't describe it as a case study, or as proof of what will happen in the future. Yes, there have been a lot of crossovers in the past decade (as we both said). But it's impossible to know what will happen in the future on the basis of what happened in the past. We can surmise what might happen, but probability is not certainty.

Yes, BUT we don't know if Ottawa is going to gel it's first season or be brutal? Much like when Ottawa came into the season in 2002. They were brutal. And for reference, in 2002. The crossover was in play, Ticats had 7 wins. (which would have gotten them in the playoffs in 2012, FYI).

Who would you pick an established team or a team that picked 3 players from each of the other teams? It's not like existing rosters are going to be dismantled. Each team is going to lose 3 players in the expansion draft. Again though, i'm not sure how you cannot use it as a case study. In the 4 years the scenario you are arguing for produced a 75% crossover rate, in the 7 years since 42%. And there has been some pretty brutal teams in the east over this stretch.

I happen to believe Ottawa will be competitive very quickly and the East does not need to be protected from the possibility of a cross-over. Even if Ottawa sucks, the chances of an all-western Grey Cup are slim because a team crossing over would have to win two playoff games on the road. That almost never happens within a division, and has never yet happened across divisions and time zones. Not to say it couldn't happen, but IMO the slim possibility is not a good reason to keep Wpg in the East. And of course we have already had five "all-western" Grey Cups in the past 25 years (Winnipeg against a West Division team.)

You know what i mean when I say "all-western" Grey Cups. So no need to get technical. And again, I'm not saying keep WPG in the east until that 10th Team. I'm saying 2-3 seasons.

When Ottawa returns, I assume that we will retain an 18-game schedule, with teams playing home-and-away against each of the other eight teams, plus two additional games within their own division. So Ottawa will be playing all western teams twice, whether there are four of them or five. If they are terrible, they'll probably be terrible against whoever they play, regardless of division. And as I said, I don't think they will be terrible because the expansion draft rules are pretty generous this time.

They may be better than they were last time. But how many all-stars are they going to get from the expansion draft? Top Canadians will still be protected. They'll beable to pick 1 current Canadian starter from each CFL team. So as an interesting exercise who would you rate as the 7th best starter on each CFL Team today? It'll take time for them to gel too. So Im not going to expect a playoff season by the RedBlacks either. It'll still take 2-3 seasons.

[paulwoods13]

You know what i mean when I say "all-western" Grey Cups. So no need to get technical.

I'm really not interested in carrying on what I'm sure for other posters is becoming a tiresome debate. But I simply don't see how an Edm-Sask or B.C.-Cal Grey Cup would be somehow worse or more "all-west" than the B.C.-Wpg, Cal-Wpg, Edm-Wpg and Sask-Wpg Grey Cups we've already seen over the years. That train left the station in 1988.

As far as I'm concerned, whoever wins the two division finals deserves to be in the Grey Cup. If at some point that is a cross-over team, good for them for achieving something very difficult, and I will still watch with interest.

[Mulder]

I'm really not interested in carrying on what I'm sure for other posters is becoming a tiresome debate. But I simply don't see how an Edm-Sask or B.C.-Cal Grey Cup would be somehow worse or more "all-west" than the B.C.-Wpg, Cal-Wpg, Edm-Wpg and Sask-Wpg Grey Cups we've already seen over the years. That train left the station in 1988.

As far as I'm concerned, whoever wins the two division finals deserves to be in the Grey Cup. If at some point that is a cross-over team, good for them for achieving something very difficult, and I will still watch with interest.

Right, that's because you've grown up seeing Winnipeg in the West. Open your eyes. WPG represented the EASTERN conference during those Grey Cups. They played more games VS EASTERN conference teams. But your looking at is as if it's a western conference team. They are not, it is different. As I've already pointed out. Old views die hard I guess.

I agree with on the second part. But it seems it still may not be understood what I'm saying. Ottawa won't be good the first season. And maybe even their second season. Why have a repeat of 2002-2005? I've already proved to you the cross-over happened statically more when the Renegades were around. A fact you have yet to acknowledge.

Regardless,Mark Cohon has said Winnipeg will remain in the east for now.

[ArgoRavi]

Right, that's because you've grown up seeing Winnipeg in the West. Open your eyes. WPG represented the EASTERN conference during those Grey Cups. They played more games VS EASTERN conference teams. But your looking at is as if it's a western conference team. They are not, it is different. As I've already pointed out. Old views die hard I guess.

For those of you who are less than 30 years-old, do you consider it to be "normal" that the Bombers are in the East Division? How about the folks who are over 30? I am in that latter group and Winnipeg in the East still doesn't look right to me although they have been in that division for 21 of the last 27 years.

[paulwoods13]

Regardless,Mark Cohon has said Winnipeg will remain in the east for now.

Source? Obviously they are remaining in the East "for now" -- i.e. this season -- but I haven't seen any comment attributed to Cohon other than the one in the tweet above, which was, "Spoke too soon about the Bombers staying in the east or moving to the west. Will get a recommendation from their board shortly." If he has said more since then, I'd like to know. Otherwise I assume that tweet is his most recent word on the subject.

[argolio]

Winnipeg is a West team and I hope that's where they go and stay.

I think we might have fewer crossovers in the future because the (now fully enforced) salary cap evens out the talent in the league. It only barely happened last year due to a historically bad Ticat defense. And I think the Grey Cup is strong enough to survive two teams from the same division, if that ever happens.

[argonaut11xx]

For those of you who are less than 30 years-old, do you consider it to be "normal" that the Bombers are in the East Division? How about the folks who are over 30? I am in that latter group and Winnipeg in the East still doesn't look right to me although they have been in that division for 21 of the last 27 years.

In a perfect world....US expansion, the montreal concordes, would have never existed...and Ottawa would still be the Rough Riders...and in that same perfect world, Winnipeg would have remained in the west.

all that said...our CFL has always done things hardly "perfect", and in an very interesting manor...

Winnipeg is in Central Canada, and as much as i cringed when they first moved to the eastern division, i've pretty much gotten used to to them as an eastern team.

As a Fan, its really a non issue to me...i just want a strong league

[AngeloV]

As Paul has mentioned in already, the fact that the Bombers biggest rival is in the west will be reason enough for them to move back. I agree with stuntdog that they are just playing their leverage card in order to get some cash from the league.

[Argo57]

For those of you who are less than 30 years-old, do you consider it to be "normal" that the Bombers are in the East Division? How about the folks who are over 30? I am in that latter group and Winnipeg in the East still doesn't look right to me although they have been in that division for 21 of the last 27 years.

I'm in my mid 40's Ravi and agree Winnipeg belongs in the Western Division, as we all know they were moved east out of necessity but with Ottawa coming back in I would like to see them moved back out west and scrap the crossover.

[Mulder]

Source? Obviously they are remaining in the East "for now" -- i.e. this season -- but I haven't seen any comment attributed to Cohon other than the one in the tweet above, which was, "Spoke too soon about the Bombers staying in the east or moving to the west. Will get a recommendation from their board shortly." If he has said more since then, I'd like to know. Otherwise I assume that tweet is his most recent word on the subject.

You mean like this

http://globalnews.ca/news/674432/blu...east-division/

[paulwoods13]

You mean like this

http://globalnews.ca/news/674432/blu...east-division/

Thanks. That certainly suggests there is an excellent chance they'll stay in the East. If that proves to be the case, it will be a shame, IMO. It's also possible this is just a stakes game, with Cohon showing the Bombers they won't get financial compensation for switching.

[Mulder]

Thanks. That certainly suggests there is an excellent chance they'll stay in the East. If that proves to be the case, it will be a shame, IMO. It's also possible this is just a stakes game, with Cohon showing the Bombers they won't get financial compensation for switching.

All I've been saying is that since Ottawa won't be that competitive keep WPG in the east for a few years. While the Expansion draft is good. They won't get
1) Franchise established QB
2) Top Canadian Starters
3) Established All-Stars.

They will obviously pick up some top CFL talent though free-agency. Which also begs to question. Will that factor into the draft choice? Would they pick up a guy who is going into free agency?

[paulwoods13]

They should be able to get two or three quarterbacks with some degree of CFL experience, and will definitely get some non-imports who have started. I imagine a few established all-stars will be made available in the draft but they will probably be expensive and on the down side of their career. They also get two drafts to stock their non-imports, and they have a year and a half to scout and recruit. IMO there is little chance they will be a terrible expansion team like the Renegades were.

And as I said earlier, I'm not in favour of artificially "enhancing" their playoff chances by keeping Wpg in the east for a few years. I'm not convinced that would make a difference to Ott's playoff chances anyway. To make the playoffs in a nine-team league, you have to beat out three teams. Here are the scenarios to get into the playoffs:

Finish at least third and have a record at least equal to the fourth-place team in the other division
or
Finish fourth and have a better record than the third-place team in the other division

There is no scenario in which the fifth-place team in a 5-team division can get in.

So the question is, does any team have a better chance of getting into the playoffs in a 4-team or 5-team division? In a 5-team East, Ottawa would have to beat out two other eastern teams AND have at least an equal record to the fourth-place western team. In a 4-team East, Ottawa would have to beat out one other eastern team AND have at least an equal record to the fourth-place western team. Is one road easier than the other? If there is a weak sister in your own division to beat up on three times, then it's possible having five teams would lessen your odds of falling victim to the crossover. But even if Wpg was terrible and Ott beat them up, they would still have to beat out someone else as well to make the playoffs -- either another Eastern team or the fourth-place Western team.

If Ottawa truly is terrible (which I don't think will happen), it won't matter whether Wpg is east or west -- a terrible team won't (and shouldn't) make the playoffs either way.

[Mulder]

They should be able to get two or three quarterbacks with some degree of CFL experience, and will definitely get some non-imports who have started. I imagine a few established all-stars will be made available in the draft but they will probably be expensive and on the down side of their career. They also get two drafts to stock their non-imports, and they have a year and a half to scout and recruit. IMO there is little chance they will be a terrible expansion team like the Renegades were.

Which backups would they get? Is there any backup QB on any team currently with more than 10 games started? Aside from the Kevin Glenn/Drew Tate.

They also get to draft the 7th best Canadian from each roster. Which would hardly be All-Star game breakers. The draft better than last time? Sure. But not as better as some people think.

http://www.ottawasun.com/2012/12/08/...me-fine-tuning

And as I said earlier, I'm not in favour of artificially "enhancing" their playoff chances by keeping Wpg in the east for a few years. I'm not convinced that would make a difference to Ott's playoff chances anyway. To make the playoffs in a nine-team league, you have to beat out three teams. Here are the scenarios to get into the playoffs:
Finish at least third and have a record at least equal to the fourth-place team in the other division
or
Finish fourth and have a better record than the third-place team in the other division

There is no scenario in which the fifth-place team in a 5-team division can get in.

I've NEVER argued to "artificially" enhance Ottawa`s playoff chances. So I have NO idea where you got this from.

So the question is, does any team have a better chance of getting into the playoffs in a 4-team or 5-team division? In a 5-team East, Ottawa would have to beat out two other eastern teams AND have at least an equal record to the fourth-place western team. In a 4-team East, Ottawa would have to beat out one other eastern team AND have at least an equal record to the fourth-place western team. Is one road easier than the other? If there is a weak sister in your own division to beat up on three times, then it's possible having five teams would lessen your odds of falling victim to the crossover. But even if Wpg was terrible and Ott beat them up, they would still have to beat out someone else as well to make the playoffs -- either another Eastern team or the fourth-place Western team.

As history has proven, you have a better chance of getting into the playoffs when you are in the 5 team division, when the 4 team division has an expansion franchise.

If Ottawa truly is terrible (which I don't think will happen), it won't matter whether Wpg is east or west -- a terrible team won't (and shouldn't) make the playoffs either way.

I agree with the last statement, but lets face it.
Ottawa probably won`t win 6 games, they won`t make the playoffs nor be a contender for a spot in come October. It`s an automatic crossover race. Team 3 in the east, now has to fight off team 4 and 5 from the west. If you want to see more Eastern Semi-Finals and Finals featuring either Edmonton,BC,and Sask, and listen to the jokes afterward on how a western conference team was playing in the East Finals. Then I guess that`s your preference. I`d prefer to make sure Ottawa gets established.

IMO as well, the expansion draft isn`t that better than the 2002 one. Aside from the QB.

2002 - Each team protects 9 imports
2013 - Each team protects 10 imports (not including QB)

2002 - Each team protects 7 Non-imports but no more than 4 OL and only 1 kicker
2013 - protects 6 NI`s. 7 if a Kicker punter was selected in round 1, 8 if a QB.

2002 - 6 additional players protected
2013 - 6 additional players protected, 8 if a kicker punter was selected from your team.

In addition, Ottawa was allowed to select 2nd round draft picks for the 2002 draft.

I don`t see how this is hugely better than the 2002 draft. Besides the QB rules.

[argos1873]

I'm saying wait until Ottawa is competitive. Or we might finally see that all western grey cup we've been waiting for.

Given the competitiveness of Ottawa football teams over the last 30 years, we may have to wait a few more decades...

[294life]

Bombers have only won a single west division title in 1984 since their 1965 win and won the east division title 7 times since 1987. Once they go back west they'll be as good as boned.

[1argoholic]

Well then it's official! Time for Winnipeg to head back to the west and all bend over, and get what 294life suggests will happen.

[294life]

might as well give them a taste of it tonight. argoooooooooos.

[argotom]

Although against it in the past for the usual traditional issues, I am now more open to looking at having a one 9 team league.

[Midnight Blue]

Forgive me for being mundane (it is an occasional part of my nature), but why can't we have a team in Quebec City, or in St. John's, Newfoundland, or in Halifax? Moncton, or in St. John, New Brunswick?


Dammit, there are Hosers all over this Country. All they need is Football, to cut down on their drinking and whoring....


And yes ... anything west of Kenora, is West.



Ka 'Pla !