View Poll Results: Where should the new Argonauts Stadium be located?

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  • Richmond Hill

    3 5.26%
  • Markham

    3 5.26%
  • Vaughan

    7 12.28%
  • Woodbine Racetrack

    4 7.02%
  • York University

    2 3.51%
  • Downsview

    13 22.81%
  • BMO Field

    19 33.33%
  • Other

    6 10.53%
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  1. #1
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    Question New Stadium Locations

    I was wondering what everyone thinks is the best location for the new Argonauts stadium. As we all know the Argonauts have to vacate the Rogers Centre in 4 years (by 2017) although the agreement does say that they might consider letting the Argonauts stay 1 additonal year if their new stadium isn't ready yet.

    I've heard the following locations mentioned as possibilities in the 416:

    BMO Field
    Woodbine Racetrack
    Downsview
    York University

    How would you feel if the Argonauts moved to the 905? I think that these locations could work:

    Markham
    Vaughan
    Richmond Hill

    Markham is considering building an NHL sized hockey rink. Could a CFL sized stadium fit on these grounds too?

    Buttonville Airport in Markham is about to close. It would be a great location for a new CFL sized stadium. It's on the 404 and close to the 407 & Highway 7. It's at the intersection of Woodbine Avenue & 16th Avenue both of which are 4 Lane streets with no parking allowed on the street.

    Richmond Hill boarders Vaughan, Aurora & Newmarket and the 404, 407 & Highway 7 all pass through Richmond Hill. The Viva high speed buses connect to Finch Station and new Viva & YRT bus right of way lanes have just opened along Highway 7 and are comming to Yonge Street too. The Yonge Street Subway is in the planning stages of being extended from Finch to Highway 7. An extension of the 404 North of Newmarket is about to open.

    Vaughan has the 400, 407 and Highway 7 passing through it and construction is already underway to extend the Subway north from Downsview Station into Vaughan.

    It's my understanding that the majority of Argonauts fans are actually from the 905 Area Code, so perhaps it's time to consider moving the Argonauts to the 905? This would be similar to how the Ottawa Senators aren't actually located in Ottawa but are in the Ottawa suburb of Kanata.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neely2005 View Post
    It's my understanding that the majority of Argonauts fans are actually from the 905 Area Code, so perhaps it's time to consider moving the Argonauts to the 905? This would be similar to how the Ottawa Senators aren't actually located in Ottawa but are in the Ottawa suburb of Kanata.
    I've made this point in other threads and on other forums, but it bears repeating: even if it is true that the majority of Argo ticket-buyers live in the 905 area code, that is a massive agglomeration of many communities stretching from Oshawa/Whitby/Pickering in the east to Burlington/Hamilton/Niagara in the west. Someone living in Pickering is pretty unlikely to go to a game in Mississauga, say, just because the two cities share an area code.

    The traffic woes last night, documented elsewhere in this forum, may actually enhance the case for BMO or some other downtown location, because at least with a downtown stadium there is an option from the suburbs that does not involve fighting traffic (GO Transit). If the stadium is put in any of the suburban locations that have been suggested, anyone who is not originating downtown will have virtually no choice but to drive. I would wager that traffic in all parts of the GTA (not just into and out of downtown) is only going to get worse in the next few decades.

    I realize there are many Argo fans who would prefer to drive and feel it would be easier to drive to Woodbine/Downsview/York/etc., and for at least some of them (perhaps many of them) that is undoubtedly true. But there are others who would find getting there harder than it is currently, and there is a risk that those fans would not go to the new location. As I've said before, the Argo brass need to weigh that risk -- if they are reasonably sure they can pick up enough new paying customers to offset current paying customers who might be lost because of a move to the suburbs, then they can and should proceed if a suburban stadium is the best option. Personally I would be reluctant to risk chasing any existing fans away, considering the franchise needs more ticket buyers than it has now. But it's a fairly straightforward calculation they should be able to make.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulwoods13 View Post
    I've made this point in other threads and on other forums, but it bears repeating: even if it is true that the majority of Argo ticket-buyers live in the 905 area code, that is a massive agglomeration of many communities stretching from Oshawa/Whitby/Pickering in the east to Burlington/Hamilton/Niagara in the west. Someone living in Pickering is pretty unlikely to go to a game in Mississauga, say, just because the two cities share an area code.

    The traffic woes last night, documented elsewhere in this forum, may actually enhance the case for BMO or some other downtown location, because at least with a downtown stadium there is an option from the suburbs that does not involve fighting traffic (GO Transit). If the stadium is put in any of the suburban locations that have been suggested, anyone who is not originating downtown will have virtually no choice but to drive. I would wager that traffic in all parts of the GTA (not just into and out of downtown) is only going to get worse in the next few decades.

    I realize there are many Argo fans who would prefer to drive and feel it would be easier to drive to Woodbine/Downsview/York/etc., and for at least some of them (perhaps many of them) that is undoubtedly true. But there are others who would find getting there harder than it is currently, and there is a risk that those fans would not go to the new location. As I've said before, the Argo brass need to weigh that risk -- if they are reasonably sure they can pick up enough new paying customers to offset current paying customers who might be lost because of a move to the suburbs, then they can and should proceed if a suburban stadium is the best option. Personally I would be reluctant to risk chasing any existing fans away, considering the franchise needs more ticket buyers than it has now. But it's a fairly straightforward calculation they should be able to make.
    The problem with BMO Field is for people that have to drive or take the TTC. Yes there is GO Train access (depending on the start & end time of the game and where you're coming from) if you're coming from the East or the West. However if you're coming from the North it's brutal to get to and the TTC access is a joke. I've taken the TTC to BMO Field for TFC Games and to the Exhibition Grounds for Marlies Games & for Concerts at the Molson Amphitheater and it's brutal. If you're lucky the TTC will run a few extra Streetcars into the Exhibition grounds but nowhere near enough and you end up literally having to fight to get on the Streetcar and then you're crammed in there like a sardine.

    On top of that there's nowhere near enough parking and the parking that there is, is very expensive. Plus a lot of parking disappears for the 3 Weeks or so that the CNE is on.

    Then there's the issues with the Stadium itself. It's like a poor mans version of the old Ivor Wynne, albeit newer and in better condition.

    As to a Stadium in the Suburbs if it's relativley close to Yonge Street and/or Highway 7 there will be excellent Transit options via the Viva High Speed Buses and the regular YRT Buses and you can take the Subway to Finch Station - and hopefully one day soon all the way to Highway 7. You can also take the Subway to Downsview and soon you'll be able to take it all the way into Vaughan.

    For me the BMO Field location is one of the worst possibilities as I'm coming from the North end of Toronto. I probably wouldn't renew my Seasons Tickets if they go to BMO Field. It's just a terrible location for me personally. The funny thing is that 'it's so close, yet so far' from the current location at the Rogers Centre.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArgoGabe22 View Post
    Mississauga is another one that was brought up before in an article with Braley. I vote "Other" for Mississauaga. My 2nd unselfish vote would be BMO.

    I agree with Paul on this one. Heck we all want it close to our home for selfish reasons, myself included but I believe it has to be somewhere near the city's core. Therefore BMO is the best fit. Varsity would have been better but we all know what happened with that.
    Sorry I should have made Mississauga an option, didn't think of that.

    Personally I'm glad that they didn't go to Varsity. That location is a nightmare for anyone who has to drive and there is very little parking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neely2005 View Post
    The problem with BMO Field is for people that have to drive or take the TTC. Yes there is GO Train access (depending on the start & end time of the game and where you're coming from) if you're coming from the East or the West. However if you're coming from the North it's brutal to get to and the TTC access is a joke. I've taken the TTC to BMO Field for TFC Games and to the Exhibition Grounds for Marlies Games & for Concerts at the Molson Amphitheater and it's brutal. If you're lucky the TTC will run a few extra Streetcars into the Exhibition grounds but nowhere near enough and you end up literally having to fight to get on the Streetcar and then you're crammed in there like a sardine.
    There's no site anywhere that is immune to traffic from all directions. If it's brutal to drive to BMO from the north (and I'm sure it is), it must also be brutal to drive to Rogers Centre from the north. Just as it can be brutal to drive to RC from the west (it certainly was on Friday night, at least) and from the east quite often. No matter where the stadium ends up, driving there will involve fighting traffic for anyone who does not live within a couple of kilometres. The point I've been trying to make is that at least downtown (or at the Ex), you have an option to get there -- from all directions -- that does not require you to drive in Toronto traffic. Anywhere outside the downtown core will eliminate that option for at least some paying customers. If the team can offset any losses from that group with gains from other customers, moving to the suburbs would be a good idea. If not, it won't be.

    I don't disagree that the leg of the journey from subway to Ex can be unpleasant on crowded streetcars, but Argo fans put up with that for 30 years when the team played at the Ex.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neely2005 View Post
    Then there's the issues with the Stadium itself. It's like a poor mans version of the old Ivor Wynne, albeit newer and in better condition.
    I think it's fairly certain (based on comments from Leiwecke) that the stadium is going to be renovated extensively, whether or not the Argos become a tenant or partner, so I don't think the current setup should be seen as what we'd be moving into.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neely2005 View Post
    As to a Stadium in the Suburbs if it's relativley close to Yonge Street and/or Highway 7 there will be excellent Transit options via the Viva High Speed Buses and the regular YRT Buses and you can take the Subway to Finch Station - and hopefully one day soon all the way to Highway 7. You can also take the Subway to Downsview and soon you'll be able to take it all the way into Vaughan.
    There are no high-speed buses that I know of from west of the city or east of the city to the area you are speaking of. Someone living in Oakville, Burlington or Milton (and presumably Pickering/Oshawa/Whitby although I am not positive about that) would need to take GO train to Union, then subway to the stadium. A journey that would take 90 minutes or more from most locations. If GO ever adds a route that goes across the top of Toronto from the eastern and western suburbs, it would be a different story, but I think that's unlikely as there already seems to be a shortage of usable rails.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulwoods13 View Post
    If GO ever adds a route that goes across the top of Toronto from the eastern and western suburbs, it would be a different story, but I think that's unlikely as there already seems to be a shortage of usable rails.
    I don't think the issue is shortage of usable rails as much as no high concentrations of employment in the burbs, and certainly nothing approaching downtown. You only have to look at the Yonge subway line, which is over-capacity with 6-car trains running every 90-120 seconds, while Sheppard, a totally suburban line, is at or below capacity with 4-car trains running every 5 minutes.
    Last edited by argolio; 10-26-2013 at 02:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by paulwoods13 View Post
    There's no site anywhere that is immune to traffic from all directions. If it's brutal to drive to BMO from the north (and I'm sure it is), it must also be brutal to drive to Rogers Centre from the north. Just as it can be brutal to drive to RC from the west (it certainly was on Friday night, at least) and from the east quite often. No matter where the stadium ends up, driving there will involve fighting traffic for anyone who does not live within a couple of kilometres. The point I've been trying to make is that at least downtown (or at the Ex), you have an option to get there -- from all directions -- that does not require you to drive in Toronto traffic. Anywhere outside the downtown core will eliminate that option for at least some paying customers. If the team can offset any losses from that group with gains from other customers, moving to the suburbs would be a good idea. If not, it won't be.

    I don't disagree that the leg of the journey from subway to Ex can be unpleasant on crowded streetcars, but Argo fans put up with that for 30 years when the team played at the Ex.



    I think it's fairly certain (based on comments from Leiwecke) that the stadium is going to be renovated extensively, whether or not the Argos become a tenant or partner, so I don't think the current setup should be seen as what we'd be moving into.



    There are no high-speed buses that I know of from west of the city or east of the city to the area you are speaking of. Someone living in Oakville, Burlington or Milton (and presumably Pickering/Oshawa/Whitby although I am not positive about that) would need to take GO train to Union, then subway to the stadium. A journey that would take 90 minutes or more from most locations. If GO ever adds a route that goes across the top of Toronto from the eastern and western suburbs, it would be a different story, but I think that's unlikely as there already seems to be a shortage of usable rails.
    Surprisingly even though they're pretty close it's much easier to drive and park at/near the Rogers Centre from the North than it is to BMO Field. Wth the Rogers Centre you have the DVP, Gardiner, Lakeshore and City Streets. When driving to BMO Field it's not practical to use the Gardiner due to the lack of exits in the area. And there are much fewer parking options at BMO Field - especially when the CNE is on.

    Yes hopefully they follow through with the improvements to BMO Field, especially the partial roof.

    It's true that there aren't any high speed buses from that far out but if the stadium was located in Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Markham or even at Woodbine Racetrack it becomes Much easier to drive to due to the Highways - 401, 407, 404, 427, 409 and to a lesser extent the 410, 403, 50, 27 & 7.

    The Highway options are just so much better in Vaughan, Richmond Hill, Markham and at Woodbine Racetrack.

    BMO Field has limited highway options, limited transit options and limited parking options. It's pretty much the hardest location possible to get to, much worse than the Rogers Centre.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neely2005 View Post
    When driving to BMO Field it's not practical to use the Gardiner due to the lack of exits in the area. And there are much fewer parking options at BMO Field - especially when the CNE is on....

    BMO Field has limited highway options, limited transit options and limited parking options. It's pretty much the hardest location possible to get to, much worse than the Rogers Centre.

    I'm not sure I understand this argument. From the west, exit at Jameson and you're almost right there; from the east, (downtown) exit at Spadina and it's not THAT far.
    Limited transit? GO Trains right at the door with half-hourly service east and west. From the GO perspective this is an ideal location. (I agree, TTC streetcar service could be better.)
    Limited parking? It's surrounded by parking lots. The tailgate scene might actually be pretty good.
    Last edited by shayman; 10-27-2013 at 03:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neely2005 View Post
    For me the BMO Field location is one of the worst possibilities as I'm coming from the North end of Toronto. I probably wouldn't renew my Seasons Tickets if they go to BMO Field. It's just a terrible location for me personally. The funny thing is that 'it's so close, yet so far' from the current location at the Rogers Centre.
    That's kind of funny you should say that because there are a lot of Toronto FC fans who said they wouldn't renew their season's tickets if the Argos came to BMO. I was watching the TFC/Montreal game yesterday and there was a banner hanging on the lowest rail of the south stands almost behind the net which said "No Argos at BMO". Apparently many believe the Argos would ruin the grass, plus most don't want to see American football field markings (either fresh or covered up which you can never do 100%) on the field when they're trying to watch TFC play. So looks like the biggest pushback regarding the Argos at BMO will be TFC fans, however if MLSE buys the Argos, which would be the best thing for the Argos in my opinion, then it's a foregone conclusion that the Argos would move into a rebuilt BMO.

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    American football?

    Quote Originally Posted by Argo57 View Post
    I think all this talk of other sites is simply "posturing" by Braley to up the ante with MLSE so that they don't appear to be the only option. Let's face it, the guy is 72 years old and may want a quick exit from this franchise
    I don't think Braley is in any hurry to divest the Argos, it's not like he's hard up for cash. If age had anything to do with it he could sell the Lions much easier than the Argos.

    I think he's looking for the best long term solution for the Argos and certainly isn't posturing. If there is any apprehension I would think it is a reluctance to build a new stadium when you're not 100% sure if the Argos can make a real resurgence in the market. That's why it would have to be part of a larger development deal to have some part of the development assured to make money

    Quote Originally Posted by cflsteve View Post
    One of the stadiums that the MLSE has looked at modeling BMO after is PPL park home of the Union which is estimated to cost about 130 million in 2013 to build.
    If the Argos become a part of MLSE's band of losers (save financially) they're looking at 27-29k seats, a roof and a form of winterization to the structure, far beyond PPL Park. It's gonna cost a few shekels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rdavies View Post
    American football?
    The type of "football" played in North America. Not the real football played everywhere.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rdavies View Post
    American football?
    When talking about soccer and football in the same post I always like to write Amercian football as some still picture soccer when someone says "Football".

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    Mississauga is another one that was brought up before in an article with Braley. I vote "Other" for Mississauaga. My 2nd unselfish vote would be BMO.

    I agree with Paul on this one. Heck we all want it close to our home for selfish reasons, myself included but I believe it has to be somewhere near the city's core. Therefore BMO is the best fit. Varsity would have been better but we all know what happened with that.
    Last edited by ArgoGabe22; 10-25-2013 at 04:28 PM.
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    Speaking of traffic - I'm hoping that if we wind up in a new stadium, the Argos will have better control of dates. Meaning, no more weeknight games. Wherever the stadium is, and I'm still hoping for downtown - traffic won't be nearly as much of an issue if we're playing on Saturday afternoons.

    I bet many people would think better of Skydome if they weren't constantly fighting weekday rush hour traffic to get there.
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    Quote Originally Posted by shayman View Post
    Speaking of traffic - I'm hoping that if we wind up in a new stadium, the Argos will have better control of dates. Meaning, no more weeknight games. Wherever the stadium is, and I'm still hoping for downtown - traffic won't be nearly as much of an issue if we're playing on Saturday afternoons.

    I bet many people would think better of Skydome if they weren't constantly fighting weekday rush hour traffic to get there.
    I actually don't mind the Rogers Centre. Close to the DVP, the Gardiner and the Lakeshore. Plus very close to the Subway and GO. As I get older I really enjoy having the roof to keep me warm and dry too!

    As to dates I can't imagine that they can get any worse than this season.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neely2005 View Post
    Subway extension into Richmond Hill:

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle15113241/

    This has been in the planning for years. Hopefully they get the shovels in the ground soon as this extension made more sense than the Vaughan extension which is already under way.
    Hudak can say anything right now, but it's anyone's guess what the PCs will actually do about transit if they win the next election. The last PC government certainly didn't live up to the transit legacy set by Bill Davis and John Robards.

    Even if they were to start this tomorrow, you're talking at least five years until it's finished. And it's extremely doubtful a new stadium would be anywhere near Yonge Street in York Region. Any extra land along the proposed subway route is zoned for high density projects.
    Last edited by argolio; 10-28-2013 at 10:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by argolio
    Even if they were to start this tomorrow, you're talking at least five years until it's finished. And it's extremely doubtful a new stadium would be anywhere near Yonge Street in York Region. Any extra land along the proposed subway route is zoned for high density projects.
    Agreed there's no way Richmond Hill works on the timeline needed for the Argos. I do think that Vaughan Metropolitan Centre is in the cards though: https://www.vaughan.ca/business/vaug...s/default.aspx. Here's the map: https://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=U...011e2e39c222a6

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    The new stadium should be in the downtown Toronto area so that fans can enjoy the downtown area with countless quality restaurants plus the usual " chain " restaurants. Numerous out of town fans attend the games and spend the day & night . Games should be saved for Fr Sat nights /Sat & Sun afternoons .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neely2005 View Post
    What highway access does Downsview have?

    Go a couple more stops on that Subway line and you'll be in Vaughan with real highway access.
    A real highway access that'll cost $15-20 per way for those coming from Oakville or Durham region. IMO, the 407 shouldn't enter the equation of being hwy access to a stadium. I live right by the 407, and do often take it, but man do I grumble when I get my monthly bill.
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    MLSE will be buying the Argos.... Tim has to save face with the soccer fans a little bit here.. The Argos wil be at BMO field by 2015 in my opinion.

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