Argos at BMO Field

[AngeloV]

These two companies are fierce competitors who go head to head in every single aspect of their business. They are not going to do anything to help each other out.

Right. I can't see them teaming up to do anything...except for maybe teaming up to bid on the olympics and teaming up to buy the Leafs, Raptors, TFC....on second thought..nevermind.

[ArgoRavi]

Agreed. The NFL in Toronto gets more unlikely by the day but if it does happen the Argos would become Football Jr. under the MLSE umbrella with cross-selling of tickets, gear, etc. It wouldn't be such a terrible outcome. Other NFL owners might look askance at one team potentially having a free farm team but rules could be put in place regarding player transfer.

Speaking of profits the Argos aren't making any, which I think everyone moaning about MLSE needs to remember. The team hasn't been profitable in more than two decades. We don't need another well intentioned but ill-equipped multi-millionaire (and there maybe none of those left anyway) but an organization capable of creating efficiencies, doing proper marketing, and absorbing losses in lean years. With the TSN deal and MLSE ownership I don't see why the Argos couldn't be in the black a few million most of the time. That also wouldn't be such a terrible outcome.

The new TV contract with TSN which kicks in this year must make the Argos more attractive to a potential buyer like MLSE. I don't think that they are far from being in the black and I agree that MLSE should be able to put them there.

[mac_davy]

MLSE is all about making profit. If they own the Argos and somehow get an NFL team (the latter is highly unlikely but not entirely out of the question), they will run both to make profits. The way to make a profit with the Argos, IMO, is to get them into a great facility with good dates and an accessible location, have them be successful on the field and promote them as an affordable niche product. If they also made some NFL ticket buyers pony up for Argo tickets or otherwise subsidize the CFL team, that would be fine with me.

"Niche product" are you kidding, have you seen the TV ratings, your realize its close to hockey night in Canada numbers. The whole MLSE wants the Argos to get an NFL team is made up media garbage, MLSE is buying the Argos for the TV ratings and to get subsidizing to renovate BMO, you don't think they realize with those TV numbers, properly handled and marketed the Argos will be a very profitable franchise, actually the most profitable. The NFL in Toronto is done, and the CFL isn't niche.

[paulwoods13]

"Niche product" are you kidding, have you seen the TV ratings, your realize its close to hockey night in Canada numbers. The whole MLSE wants the Argos to get an NFL team is made up media garbage, MLSE is buying the Argos for the TV ratings and to get subsidizing to renovate BMO, you don't think they realize with those TV numbers, properly handled and marketed the Argos will be a very profitable franchise, actually the most profitable. The NFL in Toronto is done, and the CFL isn't niche.

Umm, yes I realize the Argos can be profitable, and I believe MLSE realizes that as well. I have made that point in a number of posts, including the one you seem to have taken offence to. Calling them a "niche product" is neither insulting nor unfactual. The Argos will never be as big a revenue generator as the Leafs are. They will never attract endless piles of people willing to pay $400 or more a ticket. Over 10 games they will attract something like 250,000-300,000 customers paying reasonably low prices -- enough to make them profitable but not enough to make them anywhere near as big as the Leafs in this town.

I admire your positive attitude, but to suggest that the Argos if properly handled and marketed would be "the most profitable" franchise in the CFL strikes me as a tad optimistic. Much as I wish it were otherwise, I don't believe there will ever be anything resembling Rider Nation in this market, and the cost of doing business in Toronto further cuts into the potential bottom line. As for the NFL in Toronto being done, I'm sure everyone on this forum hopes you are correct, but it's way too early to assume the truth of such a claim.

[Rich]

Umm, yes I realize the Argos can be profitable, and I believe MLSE realizes that as well. I have made that point in a number of posts, including the one you seem to have taken offence to. Calling them a "niche product" is neither insulting nor unfactual. The Argos will never be as big a revenue generator as the Leafs are. They will never attract endless piles of people willing to pay $400 or more a ticket. Over 10 games they will attract something like 250,000-300,000 customers paying reasonably low prices -- enough to make them profitable but not enough to make them anywhere near as big as the Leafs in this town.

I admire your positive attitude, but to suggest that the Argos if properly handled and marketed would be "the most profitable" franchise in the CFL strikes me as a tad optimistic. Much as I wish it were otherwise, I don't believe there will ever be anything resembling Rider Nation in this market, and the cost of doing business in Toronto further cuts into the potential bottom line. As for the NFL in Toronto being done, I'm sure everyone on this forum hopes you are correct, but it's way too early to assume the truth of such a claim.

I understand you're trying to be the voice of reason here, but i think you're leaning a tad pessimistic.

It is entirely possible MLSE ownership will bring increased public interest in Argos. It is entirely possible MLSE marketing will bring in more Argo ticket sales gradually over time. It is entirely possible the Argos will get a huge bump from playing in totally refurbished hot-ticket BMO.

Therefore it is entirely possible the Argos could be drawing 38-40,000 fans by 2017. So here's my question. Are they still niche if they are drawing 38k?

an organization capable of creating efficiencies, doing proper marketing, and absorbing losses in lean years.

There wouldn't be any losses to absorb if they were marketed properly. We've been saying this for 20 years.

[paulwoods13]

I understand you're trying to be the voice of reason here, but i think you're leaning a tad pessimistic.

It is entirely possible MLSE ownership will bring increased public interest in Argos. It is entirely possible MLSE marketing will bring in more Argo ticket sales gradually over time. It is entirely possible the Argos will get a huge bump from playing in totally refurbished hot-ticket BMO.

Therefore it is entirely possible the Argos could be drawing 38-40,000 fans by 2017. So here's my question. Are they still niche if they are drawing 38k?

I hope you are correct. The equation would have to include ticket prices as well as attendance so I can't really say, but I think my point is that with 10 games a year, relatively low ticket prices and a vast segment of the population that pays no attention to them, they would have to be considered as filling a specific niche. Arguably the only team in Toronto, now and probably in the future, that isn't niche is the Leafs. Certainly the Jays have gone from mainstream 20 years ago to niche now, and the Raptors are far from mainstream.

[Neely2005]

Right. I can't see them teaming up to do anything...except for maybe teaming up to bid on the olympics and teaming up to buy the Leafs, Raptors, TFC....on second thought..nevermind.

Yeah the Olympic experiment worked so well that they didn't repeat it. As to MLSE they've already been at odds with each other. Bell wanted to fire Brian Burke and Rogers wanted to keep him. Don't be surprised if one buys the other out.

[AngeloV]

Yeah the Olympic experiment worked so well that they didn't repeat it. As to MLSE they've already been at odds with each other. Bell wanted to fire Brian Burke and Rogers wanted to keep him. Don't be surprised if one buys the other out.

The Olyimpic thing wasn't an experiment. They wanted and won the rights to the Olympics in Canada. No other Olympic bid means nearly as much to Canadian TV.

My point being that they have and continue to work together on certain ventures. The way you described it implied that they wouldn't have anything to do with each other whatsoever. At least I provided facts on times they did work together. You on the other had present nothing but your personal theories. Sorry Dude, but the BS meter rises higher with pretty well every post you make.

[Neely2005]

The Olyimpic thing wasn't an experiment. They wanted and won the rights to the Olympics in Canada. No other Olympic bid means nearly as much to Canadian TV.

My point being that they have and continue to work together on certain ventures. The way you described it implied that they wouldn't have anything to do with each other whatsoever. At least I provided facts on times they did work together. You on the other had present nothing but your personal theories. Sorry Dude, but the BS meter rises higher with pretty well every post you make.

I presented facts in a professional manner. You on the other hand chose to take the low road and make it personal.

[AngeloV]

I presented facts in a professional manner. You on the other hand chose to take the low road and make it personal.

No, you presented personal theories. There was nothing factual about what you presented.

[Neely2005]

No, you presented personal theories. There was nothing factual about what you presented.

Fact Rogers and Bell are each others biggest competitors across almost every line of their business.

Fact Sportsnet (Rogers) is TSN's (Bell) biggest competitor.

Fact Rogers has invested heavily in the NHL and the Blue Jays. Bell has invested heavily in the NFL and the CFL.

Fact they're already having disagreements at MLSE as Bell wanted to fire Brian Burke and Rogers wanted to keep him.

On second thought nevermind...

[T-Bone]

Fact Rogers and Bell are each others biggest competitors across almost every line of their business.

Fact Sportsnet (Rogers) is TSN's (Bell) biggest competitor.

Fact Rogers has invested heavily in the NHL and the Blue Jays. Bell has invested heavily in the NFL and the CFL.

Fact they're already having disagreements at MLSE as Bell wanted to fire Brian Burke and Rogers wanted to keep him.

On second thought nevermind...

Reality: Rogers and Bell don't really compete as they both have a pretty much equal share of the market place. Also I wasn't aware that Bell wanting to fire Brian Burke and Rogers wanting to keep him was a fact. You may want to read this. From what I've read Bell and Rogers are pretty hands off when it comes to MLSE running their teams.

[Neely2005]

Reality: Rogers and Bell don't really compete as they both have a pretty much equal share of the market place. Also I wasn't aware that Bell wanting to fire Brian Burke and Rogers wanting to keep him was a fact. You may want to read this. From what I've read Bell and Rogers are pretty hands off when it comes to MLSE running their teams.

"Burke got the axe Wednesday morning because Bell boss George Cope, after months of campaigning for Burke’s dismissal, finally wore out the Rogers suits and Larry Tanenbaum. The deal is that Rogers and Bell will vote as a bloc on all matters, and Cope is the lead actor in this stage play. It took him a while but he got his way and Rogers had to roll with the tide."

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/...ss_cox.bb.html

[T-Bone]

"Burke got the axe Wednesday morning because Bell boss George Cope, after months of campaigning for Burke’s dismissal, finally wore out the Rogers suits and Larry Tanenbaum. The deal is that Rogers and Bell will vote as a bloc on all matters, and Cope is the lead actor in this stage play. It took him a while but he got his way and Rogers had to roll with the tide."

http://www.thestar.com/sports/leafs/...ss_cox.bb.html

Ok. Regardless, both Rogers and Bell want the Leafs as well as the other teams they own under MLSE to be profitable. They haven't set out to destroy any of them so your fear mongering BS about the Argos getting the guillotine if MLSE buys them is unwarranted. Outside of Burke are there any other things Bell and Rogers have interfered in MLSE business? Like I said from what I've read they are pretty hands off. I'm sure they're more concerned with things like content for their channels as well as cross marketing etc. Also like I said:

Reality: Rogers and Bell don't really compete as they both have a pretty much equal share of the market place.

[rdavies]

Leiweke soothes TFC fan worries over BMO expansion
John Molinaro January 9, 2014

Like a lot of Toronto FC fans, Phil Tobin feels somewhat out of the loop.

Tobin is president of the Red Patch Boys, one of TFC’s biggest and best-known supporters groups. He’s concerned about the possibility of the CFL’s Toronto Argonauts moving into Toronto FC’s home at BMO Field.

Tobin and other TFC season-ticket holders have been repeatedly and publically assured by Tim Leiweke, president of Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment, that any potential modifications to BMO Field to accommodate the Argonauts or turn the soccer specific stadium into a multi-purpose facility won’t take place without MLSE first consulting them.

So imagine Tobin’s surprise last week when a Sportsnet report included confirmation from Leiweke that BMO Field, which has been TFC’s home since 2007, might undergo a major renovation and expansion in order to host a future edition of the NHL’s Winter Classic and CFL’s Grey Cup.

Another Sportsnet report cited CFL sources who said Argos executives hoped a scenario would unfold where MLSE would purchase the franchise, a move that could very well lead to the gridiron team moving into BMO Field on a full-time basis.

SUPPORTERS’ FEARS

Tobin, a 39-year-old telecom technician who calls Toronto home, has served as Red Patch Boys president since 2010. He’s feels very confident in speaking for the majority of his membership when he says Leiweke and MLSE are sending mixed messages.

“We talk to Tim and MLSE people at town hall meetings and we engage them about these issues, and they’re promising before they do anything that they’re going to talk to us,” Tobin told Sportsnet.

“But it’s frustrating because then you open up the newspaper or see website articles talking about Winter Classics, the Argos moving in, stadium expansion…. It’s every single point contradicting another one they’ve made and it’s frustrating.”

Maintaining the soccer aesthetics of BMO Field, a soccer-specific stadium built for the Reds prior to their first Major League Soccer season in 2007, is a key issue for Tobin and thousands of other loyal TFC supporters.

BMO Field’s present configurations don’t allow for Canadian football because of the dimensions of the field and stadium. If the Argos were to move in, the stands would have to be moved back—unless retractable stands were used—putting TFC fans further away from the action, and resulting in BMO Field losing its sense of being what fans consider a proper soccer stadium.

Then there’s the issue of the football lines on the field, which would visibly detract from the stadium’s “soccer vibe.” Also, BMO Field features natural grass, but supporters fear an artificial surface would likely have to be installed to accommodate the Argos. Again, that’s not ideal for soccer.

Tobin argues that putting in an artificial surface at BMO Field, which featured FieldTurf up until 2010, would make it increasingly more difficult for TFC to sign top players, especially those from overseas who are used to playing on grass.

“You’re not going to get a Jermain Defoe without grass,” Tobin said, referring to the Tottenham and England star that TFC will officially unveil on Monday.

The Argonauts’ present lease with Rogers Centre expires in 2017, although it has an opt-out clause that could theoretically allow them to move into BMO Field. But as far as the Red Patch Boys are concerned, the bottom line is this: BMO Field should not roll out the welcome mat to the Argos.

“The position for most of our group, and personally, is that the Argos should find their own home venue. BMO isn’t a real solution,” Tobin stated. “It’s not spite for the CFL. We’re really happy the CFL exists. … It’s a great tradition and it’s Canadian, and we’re very proud of it. But the Argos should sort out their stadium issues on their own.”

LEIWEKE RESPONDS

Leiweke states that if BMO Field is renovated to become a multipurpose facility that can accommodate other events such as the CFL that the soccer experience won’t be affected in any way.

“When we talk about Winter Classics or Grey Cups and a 40,000-capacity BMO, that is with a base of 30,000 seats. Our expansion plans for BMO are to go from our current capacity of just under 22,000 to 30,000,” Leiweke told Sportsnet. “We do not think that will ultimately out-paces demand, especially with where we’re trying to go with this team.

“We want to design it in a way so that we can get 40,000 on a temporary basis for big events. Our goal is still to have a 30,000-seat stadium that would protect the intimacy and the environment of the game and the experience, while still projecting some growth for the sport going forward.”

The additional seats will come by adding another level to current structure of the stadium, Leiweke explained.

As far as installing artificial turf, Leiweke maintains that is not going to happen.

“I want to be as clear as I can: We are committed to grass. There is no miscommunication on the grass issue,” Leiweke stated.

Leiweke also went to great lengths to explain that any system or technology implemented to physically slide back the end-zone stands in order to accommodate a CFL-size field would have no effect on soccer.

“One of the reasons why the renovation costs are so high—and I’m talking about a renovation cost that is twice what it cost the build the stadium in the first place—is to create an engineering system within the building to make sure for soccer the configuration remains as it is today,” Leiweke said.

Leiweke later added: “There will be no obstruction of the sidelines, no distances created between the first row and the pitch that are any different than what you see today.… We will have the same ambience and same experience and same atmosphere that they have today but with additional seats.”

What about Tobin’s fears that CFL football would tear up the pitch? Or the gridiron line marks on the soccer pitch?

“There is a way to schedule events so that you never have the two teams playing on the same weekend and you always give the pitch a week to recover. [As for the lines], there are now ways to do lines that are a paint-based concept where the paint literally can be taken right off and you’d never know it was there,” Leiweke assured.

Significantly, Leiweke went to great lengths to say that all of this—the expansion of BMO Field, it becoming a multipurpose facility—is in the exploratory phase. MLSE will use the next six months to consult with engineers, designers and architects to see if the renovation can be achieved without disrupting the soccer experience. He also stressed that MLSE will solicit fans’ opinions throughout the six-month period via town hall meetings and focus groups before any decision is made.

“We clearly don’t have some hidden plan, nor do we have a secret agreement done with the CFL,” Leiweke promised. “We’re committed to making the experience better—not worse—for TFC. That’s why we need six months. Not just for the fan feedback, but also from an engineering and design evaluation as to whether or not we can find a way we can have multiple events on a grass pitch that enhances the environment for soccer. That’s the guideline. That’s our commitment.”

While Leiweke understands why fans are concerned about proposed renovations to BMO Field, he’s bothered by the suggestion that making the stadium into a multipurpose facility suggests he and MLSE are not fully supportive of TFC.

“For those who think that we don’t love soccer and those who think we’re not committed to the right environment or the grass pitch, are you serious? Look what we’re in the middle of doing here. I love soccer. So can we just for once all calm everyone down and let everyone understand that they have no one—and I mean no one—that is a greater fan, a more passionate leader or more utterly, emotionally committed to building a great soccer franchise here than me,” Leiweke said.

“I have made a solemn pledge, and I will stick by it, that we’re going to make the experience better.”

[ArgoRavi]

I wonder if Tobin has had a problem with rugby being played at BMO Field. They must tear up the grass just as much as Canadian football players would.

[argolio]

Sounds to me like Leiweke is telling Tobin and his gang to kindly STFU.

[Ron]

Sounds to me like Leiweke is telling Tobin and his gang to kindly STFU.

He only said they'd discuss it with them. He never said he needed their permission.

[T-Bone]

I wonder if Tobin has had a problem with rugby being played at BMO Field.

Why wonder? Ask him.

[argotom]

He only said they'd discuss it with them. He never said he needed their permission.

But it's not their stadium, we the taxpayers own it as MLSE only manages it.
Unless we sold the farm which I expect may well have occurred, you would think the City would have to be involved?