Argo Sale

[argos1873]

Peddie on TSN Drive with Dave Naylor and special guest host Dave Hodge.
Starts at 21:46.

http://iphone.tsn.ca/tsnpodcasts/TSN...R 1 Jan 28.mp3

Richard Peddie of all people: @ about 26:45 "When you have a business and its not working you can always shut the business down...and my point was you cannot shut the Argos down, because they're the oldest sports franchise in North America. That's unacceptable." This was point 4 of his reason's for not buying the Argos. Not sure how the current MLSE feels about that point, but unlike others here, I don't think there is a corporate attempt to shut down the Argos, as they really don't pose a threat to an NFL team here. And I really believe any sane businessman believes that. Given priority? No, but I have no believe that even Rogers cares to shut the Argos down. They just don't care.

[OV Argo]

Just for some sort of clarification on the Argos sale or value : anybody know or have any educated guesses as to what Mr, Braley paid to become the Argos owner?

The Argos are just like any other business ??? ; and selling them is just like the average joe selling his house or car ???

[VANRIDERFAN]

Now I know that I am an outsider here. I am thrilled that there seems to be a bright light on the horizon for the Argo franchise.

But I have to chuckle at the arrogance of the Toronto media (and how it infects staff that moves to the big smoke from the hinterlands). When Dave Hodge says to Peddie and Naylor that Torontonians don't want to see their team play Hamilton or Regina, they want to see them play New York or Dallas. I'm thinking, do New Yorkers want to see their team play Toronto, or are they more excited to see them play Philadelphia, Miami or San Fran or London England?

I would like to see the US TV numbers for the Jays, Raptors, Leafs and TFC. I would suspect that they are not all that impressive.

[rdavies]

Shoalts: MLSE outlines plans for stadium renovation, with eye on NFL team
David Shoalts The Globe and Mail Jan. 29 2014

Tim Leiweke’s and Larry Tanenbaum’s big plans for BMO Field are based in large part on a billion-dollar bet: finally landing that elusive NFL franchise for Toronto.

That may sound ominous for the CFL’s Toronto Argonauts, but a happy side effect of this plan would be an escape from the Rogers Centre for the far more football-friendly setting of a renovated BMO Field – not to mention a possible sale to either Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment Ltd. or Tanenbaum. The NFL is expected to insist that sort of safety net for the Argos must be part of bringing a franchise to Toronto, be it a purchase of the Buffalo Bills or an expansion team.

So Tanenbaum and Leiweke – the chairman and chief executive officer of MLSE, respectively – are fairly well along in their planning for the soccer-specific BMO Field, which is owned by the City of Toronto but managed by MLSE. The plan is for MLSE to spend $120-million making the stadium suitable for both the CFL and Toronto FC, the company’s Major League Soccer franchise, topped by a roof over the expanded stands, which will seat 30,000 for soccer and between 25,000 and 26,000 for football.

MLSE executive vice-president Bob Hunter, who is in charge of the BMO renovations, said Wednesday it will take about two years to finish, with the seating expected to be ready for the Pan American Games in the summer of 2015, and the canopy over the seats to be done by 2016. There is still some paperwork to be completed with the city, but since MLSE is footing the bill, no huge problems are expected.

However, on either side of this equation, the road ahead is fraught with potholes as deep as MLSE’s pockets.

The renovation price tag plus a potential purchase of the Argos – which would also mean taking on somewhere between $2-million and $4-million in annual operating losses, according to someone who knows the team’s financial picture – can be seen as the price Leiweke and Tanenbaum are willing to pay to get into the NFL game. That is a lot of money to bet on landing an NFL team – which would also require someone having to spend around $2-billion on acquiring a franchise and then building an NFL-acceptable stadium.

On the NFL side of things, Leiweke and Tanenbaum are at the head of the charge, but both are expected to be minority owners of a team at best.

By league rules, only individuals (not corporations) can own NFL teams – and that role probably would go to someone from the Rogers family, which owns 37.5 per cent of MLSE through Rogers Communications Inc.

No matter how friendly the MLSE forces get with 95-year-old Buffalo Bills owner Ralph Wilson and his family, the fact is when he passes on, his heirs will hold an auction to get the highest possible price for the team. And then there will be political forces in New York State that will not want to see the Bills leave Buffalo. (The Bills, however, have played annual games in Toronto since 2008.)

An expansion franchise is an even greater long shot.

On the CFL side of things, the Argos have long yearned to leave the 50,000-seat Rogers Centre (their lease is up in 2017, but they have an escape clause they can exercise at the end of each CFL season) for a more intimate venue. Now that MLSE is willing to pay for the expensive construction work needed to expand BMO Field’s end zones to accommodate the 110-yard-long CFL field, it would seem the good ship Argonaut has smooth sailing ahead.

But not necessarily, and for some of the same reasons that scuttled the same move several years ago, when the Argos were owned by Howard Sokolowski and David Cynamon. Former senator David Braley has owned the Argonauts since 2010. (and the B.C. Lions since 1997).

It is expensive to play a game at BMO Field, way more expensive than it is now for the Argos to play a game at the Rogers Centre, where they essentially play rent-free. Thanks to several union contracts between the city and everyone from the electrical and sound staff to concessions workers and the ushers, it costs about $100,000 every time Toronto FC plays at BMO Field. Since the facility is owned by the city, there is no cutting a sweetheart deal just to land a new tenant.

Multiply that by eight regular-season games and a preseason game (and perhaps postseason games) and that is a roughly $1-million bill for a CFL team, a crippling charge for a league that operates on tight margins.

If the MLSE board ever agrees to buy the Argos or Tanenbaum does so with his own money, that may not be a problem. But if not, then finding another CFL owner presents a whole new wrinkle.

When Dave Hodge says to Peddie and Naylor that Torontonians don't want to see their team play Hamilton or Regina, they want to see them play New York or Dallas. I'm thinking, do New Yorkers want to see their team play Toronto, or are they more excited to see them play Philadelphia, Miami or San Fran or London England?

Yes, but the strange thing is, in hockey, do Torontonians want to see Montreal and Ottawa or New York and Dallas. I would say it is the former not the latter. Same thing in soccer, I would think the Impact and Whitecaps are better received than New York and Dallas. It is still the Toronto perception that the CFL is "small time"

And yes, to Americans, Toronto is more akin to Jacksonville than it is to London.

[ArgoGabe22]

Just for some sort of clarification on the Argos sale or value : anybody know or have any educated guesses as to what Mr, Braley paid to become the Argos owner?

The Argos are just like any other business ??? ; and selling them is just like the average joe selling his house or car ???

It seems that the value of other CFL franchises is at around $15M. I bet Braley paid close to that ($12-15M?) and I believe I read somewhere that he is now looking to get around $20M.

[OV Argo]

It seems that the value of other CFL franchises is at around $15M. I bet Braley paid close to that ($12-15M?) and I believe I read somewhere that he is now looking to get around $20M.

I'd take that bet; my bet would be that he paid next to nothing (but assusmed some Argo debt) to become the custodian of a money losing Argos.

And now Braley expects to get 20 mil for the Argos - who according to this Shoalts character have "annual operating losses" of 2 to 4 million $ a year and who can't get 20 thousand people out to a football game in a demograhic of 5 million plus ???

[ArgoGabe22]

I'd take that bet; my bet would be that he paid next to nothing (but assusmed some Argo debt) to become the custodian of a money losing Argos.

And now Braley expects to get 20 mil for the Argos - who according to this Shoalts character have "annual operating losses" of 2 to 4 million $ a year and who can't get 20 thousand people out to a football game in a demograhic of 5 million plus ???

I forgot that he already funded the team so he probably did pay less. I can't find the number reported but many CFL forums report that he is looking to get $20M for the Lions. Not a very good source but I think he did say something like he knows what the franchises are worth and what they go for ($15M) and won't sell for anything else.

[R.J]

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/leiwe...for-bmo-field/

Argos to BMO talk starts close to the end of the segment. Sounds like it's a done deal already just waiting to reach an agreement with the city and sale of the Argonauts. Hybrid grass, retractable seats, roof etc, in the works.

[Ron]

Just this past summer I wrote on this board that MLSE would own this team and they would play at BMO Field within 2 seasons and I was essentially laughed at. Apologies accepted anytime lol.

I'll take a stab at this.

I apologize that you thought we were laughing at what you wrote when we were clearly just laughing at you.

[ArgoRavi]

Something that Shoalts is missing in his article is that gate receipts for Argos games at the new BMO Field should improve substantially over what they have been getting in recent years at SkyDome. Also, the TV revenues are going to be significantly greater so it is very likely that the "2 million to $4 million" in losses will be reduced considerably if not eliminated entirely (which is my guess).

I'd take that bet; my bet would be that he paid next to nothing (but assusmed some Argo debt) to become the custodian of a money losing Argos.

And now Braley expects to get 20 mil for the Argos - who according to this Shoalts character have "annual operating losses" of 2 to 4 million $ a year and who can't get 20 thousand people out to a football game in a demograhic of 5 million plus ???

I am pretty sure you are correct, OV. Braley probably didn't pay one cent to Cynamon and Sokolowski. He likely just assumed their debts which was a few million dollars. Braley will make a killing if he sells to MLSE/Tanenbaum for $15 million to $20 million but I do suspect that he will get something close to that as the value of the Argos will rise significantly with the new TV deal and greater gate receipts at a renovated BMO Field.

[AngeloV]

Something that Shoalts is missing in his article is that gate receipts for Argos games at the new BMO Field should improve substantially over what they have been getting in recent years at SkyDome. Also, the TV revenues are going to be significantly greater so it is very likely that the "2 million to $4 million" in losses will be reduced considerably if not eliminated entirely (which is my guess).

They will also benefit financially from not paying rent at BMO, and being assured of better home dates.

[argotom]

They will also benefit financially from not paying rent at BMO, and being assured of better home dates.

Not to mention the game day sales of beer, merchandise etc..

[Argo57]

While all the talk of new ownership and home for the Argonauts is intriguing,as a season ticket holder I do wonder how much ticket prices will be increasing to pay for all of this.

[jerrym]

While I am nervous about the likelihood of MLSE taking over the Argos, it looks like the best option with the best possible upside, despite the fact the thought still lingers that this could still be a NFL bait and switch.

[Ron]

While I am nervous about the likelihood of MLSE taking over the Argos, it looks like the best option with the best possible upside, despite the fact the thought still lingers that this could still be a NFL bait and switch.

The NFL needs (NEEDS) the CFL. So MLSE ain't buying them just to kill them Plus they'll always need to fill dates at BMO. (The NFL ain't playin at BMO)

But this falls with the long standing paranoia by Argo fans. For example ... if Rogers really wanted the Argos dead they could have killed them long ago. Just not renew a lease when the team had nowhere else to go. (Which could have been done many times) Even now the word from "Rogers" is that they would not boot the Argos from the Dome of they had nowhere else to go. That sure don't sound like an organization hell bent on killing them. There be a big difference between not giving a shit and wanting something dead.

While all the talk of new ownership and home for the Argonauts is intriguing,as a season ticket holder I do wonder how much ticket prices will be increasing to pay for all of this.

Look at what BC Lions ticket prices are. Toronto and Hammer have been cheap in comparison for a while. My $20 dome seat would be about $50 at BC Place.

Cats fans OTOH are lucky going forward that their owner ain't a money grab dude. Existing seat holders get a sweet deal as long as they keep those seats. If the Argos fill BMO, it's logical to assume higher tix prices are ahead.

[ArgoGabe22]

If the stadium houses 40K then they really can't price out too many people or half of it will be empty. Maybe a small increase but nothing huge, I hope.

[AngeloV]

While all the talk of new ownership and home for the Argonauts is intriguing,as a season ticket holder I do wonder how much ticket prices will be increasing to pay for all of this.

I don't think it's a matter of who owns the team that relates to ticket prices but rather demand. Tough to ask market value for your tickets when there are 30k empty seats in a 55k stadium (or 10k empty seats in a reduced version of that stadium). If the team starts playing to 90% capacity in whatever stadium they call home, ticket prices will go up.

[argotom]

While all the talk of new ownership and home for the Argonauts is intriguing,as a season ticket holder I do wonder how much ticket prices will be increasing to pay for all of this.

You are bang on for that as MLSE has an atrocious history with ticket holders.
No better example what MLSE charges for the Leafs, then blackmails their season ticket holders to purchase Raptors.
Even worse to TFC when increasing their prices and effectively chasing many away.
I am also a multi year season ticket holder, who knows what's going to happen?

[Argo57]

I don't think it's a matter of who owns the team that relates to ticket prices but rather demand. Tough to ask market value for your tickets when there are 30k empty seats in a 55k stadium (or 10k empty seats in a reduced version of that stadium). If the team starts playing to 90% capacity in whatever stadium they call home, ticket prices will go up.

I get the supply and demand aspect Angelo and trust me would love to see a much greater live game experience, but as enthused as I am with many aspects of these recent developments MLSE is all about profit and I know when they establish greater ticket demand (with more limited supply) this group will jam it to the fans big time!!
Perhaps this is a somewhat necessary by product of making our team relevant again. Time will tell.

[Rich]

If the stadium houses 40K then they really can't price out too many people or half of it will be empty. Maybe a small increase but nothing huge, I hope.

Well Shoalts' story today said Argo capacity at BMO will be 25 or 26 thousand. Is there any doubt that place will regularly be sold out completely? I was really hoping there'd be at least 30k seats for the Argos. But at 25, I'm afraid ticket prices will go up. A lot. Hopefully i'll be making more money by then.