Argo Sale

[paulwoods13]

We all want the franchise to not only survive but thrive, right? If it is able to charge more for tickets, and sell most or all of them, then it should thrive. No doubt some fans won't be able to afford to buy tickets, or at least the top-priced tickets, but if other fans buy those tickets, our team will thrive for years to come (and everyone else can watch on TV). There's no way to have the franchise become profitable -- which several of us have said is possible -- while charging down-market prices. I'd rather have higher prices and a stable, successful future than low prices and the constant risk of going out of business.

[T-Bone]

MLSE plan for an expanded BMO Field loaded with uncertainty

[Neely2005]

Something that Shoalts is missing in his article is that gate receipts for Argos games at the new BMO Field should improve substantially over what they have been getting in recent years at SkyDome. Also, the TV revenues are going to be significantly greater so it is very likely that the "2 million to $4 million" in losses will be reduced considerably if not eliminated entirely (which is my guess).

It's also much more expensive to stage a game at BMO Field due to the city workers and their union contacts.

See Post # 50 above.

I am pretty sure you are correct, OV. Braley probably didn't pay one cent to Cynamon and Sokolowski. He likely just assumed their debts which was a few million dollars. Braley will make a killing if he sells to MLSE/Tanenbaum for $15 million to $20 million but I do suspect that he will get something close to that as the value of the Argos will rise significantly with the new TV deal and greater gate receipts at a renovated BMO Field.

Braley also lost millions of dollars each season that he owned the Argonauts. Aside from the Grey Cup year.

If the stadium houses 40K then they really can't price out too many people or half of it will be empty. Maybe a small increase but nothing huge, I hope.

As per Post # 50 in this thread BMO Field will seat 25,000 - 26,000 for Regular Season Argonauts games.

40,000 is with Temporary Seating for Grey Cups and Winter Classics.

[OV Argo]

It's also much more expensive to stage a game at BMO Field due to the city workers and their union contacts.

See Post # 50 above.



Braley also lost millions of dollars each season that he owned the Argonauts. Aside from the Grey Cup year.



As per Post # 50 in this thread BMO Field will seat 25,000 - 26,000 for Regular Season Argonauts games.

40,000 is with Temporary Seating for Grey Cups and Winter Classics.



Based on the TV ratings for TFC there doesn't seem to be a huge following outside of those that actually go to the games. TFC attendance has been down the past few seasons too.

What is your source of information that Braley has lost millions of dollars each season he's owned the Argos? - got any bank statements or financial audits to show us to back that up? Or is it maybe more like from conventional CFL media gossip/wisdom/cliches that a lot of posters like to cite on these fan forums?

[ArgoGabe22]

As per Post # 50 in this thread BMO Field will seat 25,000 - 26,000 for Regular Season Argonauts games.

40,000 is with Temporary Seating for Grey Cups and Winter Classics.

From yesterday....."Tim Leiweke elaborates on his ultimate goal for BMO Field on Prime Time Sports, sharing his vision of a 40,000-seat world class stadium that can also accommodate the CFL, bringing up ‘hybrid grass’ as a possibility."

[T-Bone]

It's also much more expensive to stage a game at BMO Field due to the city workers and their union contacts.

See Post # 50 above.

If the cost to host an Argo game at BMO Field is too high for MLSE to make a profit they simply won't buy the team. I highly doubt that is the case but I'm sure they have people crunching those numbers for them to figure that out.

[Neely2005]

What is your source of information that Braley has lost millions of dollars each season he's owned the Argos? - got any bank statements or financial audits to show us to back that up? Or is it maybe more like from conventional CFL media gossip/wisdom/cliches that a lot of posters like to cite on these fan forums?

"the team may currently be losing upwards of $6 million per season less than a year after successfully hosting and winning the 100th Grey Cup last November. It all seemed desperate, you’ll recall, back in 2003 when Sherwood Schwarz threw up his hands after losing an estimated $15 million in three seasons, and the league took over the franchise before selling it to the tandem of David Cynamon and Howard Sokolowski."

http://www.thestar.com/sports/2013/0...r_cfl_cox.html

"The renovation price tag plus a potential purchase of the Argos – which would also mean taking on somewhere between $2-million and $4-million in annual operating losses, according to someone who knows the team's financial picture"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/football/leiweke-outlines-mlse-plans-for-stadium-renovation/article16570810/

From yesterday....."Tim Leiweke elaborates on his ultimate goal for BMO Field on Prime Time Sports, sharing his vision of a 40,000-seat world class stadium that can also accommodate the CFL, bringing up ‘hybrid grass’ as a possibility."

"The plan is for MLSE to spend $120-million making the stadium suitable for both the CFL and Toronto FC, the company's Major League Soccer franchise, topped by a roof over the expanded stands, which will seat 30,000 for soccer and between 25,000 and 26,000 for football."

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...ticle16570810/

40,000 is to big for Regular Season TFC & Argonauts games. 40,000 for the Argonauts is probably 45,000 for TFC.

[OV Argo]

"the team may currently be losing upwards of $6 million per season less than a year after successfully hosting and winning the 100th Grey Cup last November. It all seemed desperate, you’ll recall, back in 2003 when Sherwood Schwarz threw up his hands after losing an estimated $15 million in three seasons, and the league took over the franchise before selling it to the tandem of David Cynamon and Howard Sokolowski."

http://www.thestar.com/sports/2013/0...r_cfl_cox.html

"The renovation price tag plus a potential purchase of the Argos – which would also mean taking on somewhere between $2-million and $4-million in annual operating losses, according to someone who knows the team's financial picture"

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...ticle16570810/

As i suspected: some unsubstantiated media reports = the usual with CFL financial figures ("somewhere between 2 & 4 million" eh? - how conveniently vague) ; could well be quite true/accurate; and you are free to believe as you wish.

[doubleblue]

I don't think the Argo losses would be much at all IF they were in a Stadium like BMO with Friday nights, Weekends and the odd Holiday home schedule. Plus parking and food and drink revenue with a 25,000 paid attendance. I don't think there is any way the Argos owned by MLSE would lose money with the current SMS and better home dates and concessions. Plus more corporate sponsors. You want to have a Maple Leaf corporate box? Maybe you should buy an Argo one at the same time, especially if you want a good one at the ACC.

[Downtownfan]

Well, I am not sure if I can believe the accuracy of Shoalts, the hockey guy, on these matters. He did write that the team has an "eight" game season. Few of these reports take into account the new TV deal on the Argos finances, a curious but opportune bout of collective amnesia.

Funny, these journalists are amazingly good at ferreting out the supposed annual losses for the Argos, a privately held club. Yet no one ever reports on the Blue Jays losses, or the massive losses Rogers undoubtedly suffered with the Bills' debacle, and Rogers is a publicly traded company. Given that so many of these "reporters" actually work for Rogers, you would think it would be a simple matter to find out-- of course, that would shatter their prejudged narrative. If Rogers' actual losses on the Bills were reported, it would make the Argos look better in contrast-- and we can't have that, can we?

[Neely2005]

Well, I am not sure if I can believe the accuracy of Shoalts, the hockey guy, on these matters. He did write that the team has an "eight" game season. Few of these reports take into account the new TV deal on the Argos finances, a curious but opportune bout of collective amnesia.

Funny, these journalists are amazingly good at ferreting out the supposed annual losses for the Argos, a privately held club. Yet no one ever reports on the Blue Jays losses, or the massive losses Rogers undoubtedly suffered with the Bills' debacle, and Rogers is a publicly traded company. Given that so many of these "reporters" actually work for Rogers, you would think it would be a simple matter to find out-- of course, that would shatter their prejudged narrative. If Rogers' actual losses on the Bills were reported, it would make the Argos look better in contrast-- and we can't have that, can we?

Probably because the new TV deal hasn't kicked in yet and they were reporting previous years losses.

[ArgoRavi]

Probably because the new TV deal hasn't kicked in yet and they were reporting previous years losses.

However, Damian Cox was only too willing to speculate that the team "may be losing upwards of $6 million per season". What is that based on? I could see them losing in the $2 million to $4 million range but $6 million sounds like a bit much to me. Again, all we can do is speculate but the Argos playing out of BMO with a rich (by CFL standards) TV contract would likely put them in position to be profitable.

[Downtownfan]

Actually, they are not "reporting" on previous year's losses, they are speculating. Fact is, there is a TV deal, which has been reported (not speculated) to be approximately $40 million a year, which kicks in this year, and rarely has been mentioned in all the reporting of the last week on the Argos and their potential move to BMO/MLSE. Again, the point stands-- there is virtually never any reporting on the finances of other teams, especally the Blue Jays, but including TFC-- even though Tim L. stated that the recent big name signnings are "financial suicide." There is a media narrative out there that fits within a prejudice against the CFL and the Argos in particular.

[Invader]

However, Damian Cox was only too willing to speculate that the team "may be losing upwards of $6 million per season". What is that based on? I could see them losing in the $2 million to $4 million range but $6 million sounds like a bit much to me. Again, all we can do is speculate but the Argos playing out of BMO with a rich (by CFL standards) TV contract would likely put them in position to be profitable.

I heard Cox explain how he arrived at the $6 million loss figure on PTS last year. To paraphrase: "Ok, whada Argos make in tickets, $2-3 mil? Then there's the TV deal, $1 mil? Throw in half a mil from sponsors and signs and stuff. But the Argos got to pay the $4 mil salary cap, then another mil for coaches and a couple mil to rent Rogers Centre, add in the air fare and stuff, that's gotta be $6 mil in losses right there!"

I couldn't believe my ears when I heard him sav that on national TV. I thought he was a reputable columnists, but is actually a total buffoon. On another PTS show Cox was emphatic "the Argos only averaged 13,000 crowds this year"..."I know." Pretending like he has some secret info from the RC ticket office or perhaps he counted the Argo crowds each game to come to this revelation?

As a columnist, Cox is entitled to have an opinion about the Argos losses. But as a reporter in the sports section, he would need to provide proof to his editor and publisher that the loss figures can be verified by a reputable source, or the Toronto Star could be facing a lawsuit.

Other reports over the years have put the Argos losses at $1 to $2 million per year, which I would tend to believe over Cox who seems to have a axe to grind against the CFL. I'm sure he'd quickly change his tune from a Rogers hack to an Argos Booster if MLSE/Tannenbaum bought the team!

P.S. In the Shoalts G&M story, that is his "analysis" and not a news story. Anything which is not quoted from a source in the story is only his opinion and cannot necessarily be verified as true.)

[Argo57]

I heard Cox explain how he arrived at the $6 million loss figure on PTS last year. To paraphrase: "Ok, whada Argos make in tickets, $2-3 mil? Then there's the TV deal, $1 mil? Throw in half a mil from sponsors and signs and stuff. But the Argos got to pay the $4 mil salary cap, then another mil for coaches and a couple mil to rent Rogers Centre, add in the air fare and stuff, that's gotta be $6 mil in losses right there!"

I couldn't believe my ears when I heard him sav that on national TV. I thought he was a reputable columnists, but is actually a total buffoon. On another PTS show Cox was emphatic "the Argos only averaged 13,000 crowds this year"..."I know." Pretending like he has some secret info from the RC ticket office or perhaps he counted the Argo crowds each game to come to this revelation?

As a columnist, Cox is entitled to have an opinion about the Argos losses. But as a reporter in the sports section, he would need to provide proof to his editor and publisher that the loss figures can be verified by a reputable source, or the Toronto Star could be facing a lawsuit.

Other reports over the years have put the Argos losses at $1 to $2 million per year, which I would tend to believe over Cox who seems to have a axe to grind against the CFL. I'm sure he'd quickly change his tune from a Rogers hack to an Argos Booster if MLSE/Tannenbaum bought the team!

P.S. In the Shoalts G&M story, that is his "analysis" and not a news story. Anything which is not quoted from a source in the story is only his opinion and cannot necessarily be verified as true.)

Cox actually fits in perfectly on the PTS show, along with the other dim bulb, legends in their own mind!!
Don't take much (if anything) that they say seriously.

[Argocister]

If I recall correctly, Cohon commented that the extra monies from the TV deal puts all teams in the black. I assume the Argos are the worst financially, so I'm thinking the extra million helps ease the dollar woes.So from that assumption, they have lost only a million or so the past year or two.
IF the Argos can capitalize on the concessions and stores as well ..... will that provide extra monies? although the rent of BMO may cancel that benefit of being outside of skydome. ..... crap wish I won the 50 mill from lotto max.

[argotom]

From yesterday....."Tim Leiweke elaborates on his ultimate goal for BMO Field on Prime Time Sports, sharing his vision of a 40,000-seat world class stadium that can also accommodate the CFL, bringing up ‘hybrid grass’ as a possibility."

This guy Leiweke is nothing more then a snake oil salesman.
The man cannot be trusted.

[ArgoRavi]

This guy Leiweke is nothing more then a snake oil salesman.
The man cannot be trusted.

I am not crazy about Leiweke either, AT, but he won't be in Toronto forever. At some point within the next decade the bright lights of New York, Chicago or Los Angeles will call for this guy once again and he will head back across the border after attempting to colonize us backwards Canadians.

[T-Bone]

I am not crazy about Leiweke either, AT, but he won't be in Toronto forever. At some point within the next decade the bright lights of New York, Chicago or Los Angeles will call for this guy once again and he will head back across the border after attempting to colonize us backwards Canadians.

I never thought I would see MLSE knowingly lose money in order to improve a product, then Leiweke showed up. There has definitely been a shift in mentality at MLSE since Leiweke arrived. I don't fully trust him and MLSE is still about making money but it's nice to see them taking a risk and investing some of their money in hope of future returns.

[Downtownfan]

Richard Griffin has a terrible piece in the Star today that blames the Argos for Rogers inability to put grass in Skydome. Despite Beeston's claims to support the Argos, the article makes clear that the Argos are the "problem." Of course, no mention of the Bills series. Not sure how this fits with the MLSE move, but I wrote to Griffin to ask him why he omitted the Bills. No doubt I will get some shoddy brush of, if he relies at all.