Is lack of sustained on-field success a factor in Argo attendance problems?

[Gill The Thrill]

Disagree, the 1976-81 attendance decline was largely due to the upstart Jays (1977) even though they were a struggling expansion team the Argos no longer had the summer sports season all to themselves.

The Jays are not going away anytime soon, so the Argos better compete, on the field and in the promotion and marketing department where quite frankly, they get slaughtered by the Blue Jays. Ticket prices are not as competitive and the team has no promotion giveaways, no magnet schedules, no bobbleheads, nothing that sells the brand or tradition. It's as if the Argos are an expansion team with no identity in Toronto even though they've been around for decades...Hey it's great that the Argos do great work in the off-season and play basketball against high school kids and have the bullying program, but for the fans who are willing to pay to go down to the stadium, they've got to provide them with some sense of value, not just a ticket, overpriced beer and horrible overpriced food of which the team makes no money on anyway. They can't just chalk it up to that's the price of doing business in Toronto and that we should be privileged to be at Skydome to watch them...that's WRONG, they should be privileged to have us come down to support the team, not the other way around. When they've conveyed that message as C @ S did in their first few years, attendance always improved.

Before any skeptics can disagree, you can argue as I've heard casual sports fans say that the Argos should not charge these prices based on player salaries in the CFL compared to MLB, NBA and NHL...I don't want to get into the major league argument or Canadian, American perception debate, but the truth is the Argos payroll is lower than all those other teams in this market including TFC in MLS...if that's the case, where's all their expenses coming from...A CFL team in Toronto should be viable based on the league salary cap alone and I don't know why it can't be successful....ah...that damn lease agreement which sees zip coming to the team in parking and concessions....shall I say it again......(Why are they there) Get together with Rugby Canada or some other group and do something about that.

Glad the Argos are now practicing at York Stadium, that's half the solution. It's also on a future subway line and York needs a better football facility to actually compete against Western, Queen's, Ottawa U, MacMaster and even Windsor to get decent players to gain at least some positive publicity...(sure beats the publicity they get now as the commuter school where young women have to fear for their safety after night classes during the school year).

[ArgoRavi]

Interestingly, the biggest complaint among B.C. Lions fans is that there are no cheap tickets anymore at refurbished B.C. Place. They have 15k season ticket holders in a Grey Cup year compared to the 24k that they had not long before Bob Ackles' death. The Lions have, apparently, shared data which shows that their fans have an average income of $90k. Anyway, Braley is making money out there even though attendance has fallen about 7k from the peak (I am talking of the Braley years only) of 34k back in '08 IIRC and despite the fact that the refurbished B.C. Place is supposed to be one of the best football stadiums in North America. Braley isn't really interested in growing the fan base out there; he is simply content to milk the existing base for as much as he can which is concerning when you look at the long-term view. Anyway, I think what he is doing out in B.C. provides some context for how he is running the Toronto operation.

[Neely2005]

The Jays are not going away anytime soon, so the Argos better compete, on the field and in the promotion and marketing department where quite frankly, they get slaughtered by the Blue Jays. Ticket prices are not as competitive and the team has no promotion giveaways, no magnet schedules, no bobbleheads, nothing that sells the brand or tradition. It's as if the Argos are an expansion team with no identity in Toronto even though they've been around for decades...Hey it's great that the Argos do great work in the off-season and play basketball against high school kids and have the bullying program, but for the fans who are willing to pay to go down to the stadium, they've got to provide them with some sense of value, not just a ticket, overpriced beer and horrible overpriced food of which the team makes no money on anyway. They can't just chalk it up to that's the price of doing business in Toronto and that we should be privileged to be at Skydome to watch them...that's WRONG, they should be privileged to have us come down to support the team, not the other way around. When they've conveyed that message as C @ S did in their first few years, attendance always improved.

Before any skeptics can disagree, you can argue as I've heard casual sports fans say that the Argos should not charge these prices based on player salaries in the CFL compared to MLB, NBA and NHL...I don't want to get into the major league argument or Canadian, American perception debate, but the truth is the Argos payroll is lower than all those other teams in this market including TFC in MLS...if that's the case, where's all their expenses coming from...A CFL team in Toronto should be viable based on the league salary cap alone and I don't know why it can't be successful....ah...that damn lease agreement which sees zip coming to the team in parking and concessions....shall I say it again......(Why are they there) Get together with Rugby Canada or some other group and do something about that.

Glad the Argos are now practicing at York Stadium, that's half the solution. It's also on a future subway line and York needs a better football facility to actually compete against Western, Queen's, Ottawa U, MacMaster and even Windsor to get decent players to gain at least some positive publicity...(sure beats the publicity they get now as the commuter school where young women have to fear for their safety after night classes during the school year).

A couple of things to consider, the Argonauts gave out magnet schedules at the Home Opener. They've given out bobble heads in the past. The Argonauts won't be practicing at York for much longer, they're moving to Downsview.

In regards to ticket prices the Argonauts have less home games than TFC and the Blue Jays.
Also the MLS and MLB TV Deals are both much bigger than the CFL TV Deal. MLS gets 90 Million per season from Fox. MLB gets about 1.5 Billion per season through its various TV Deals. The CFL gets 40 Million per season through its new TV Deal. MLS and MLB can subsidize ticket prices through their TV Deals and the fact that they have more home games than the CFL.

[Will]

By Marty York
Globe & Mail
November 8, 1983

Toronto Argonauts were a major success on the field this season, but a major failure at the gate.

The Argos 12-4 record was not only the best in the Canadian Football League during the 1983 season, it was the best in the history of the Eastern Division. Yet, they attracted only 296,871 spectators -- a decrease of 10,535 from last season -- to Exhibition Stadium for their eight home games.

The question is why? Why after turning out en masse during those miserable, losing years have Argo fans shunned the team during what appears to be a Grey Cup-bound season?

Perhaps they prefer a loser. After all, in 1976 when the Argos finished with a mediocre 7-8-1 record, the team lured a club record 378,847 customers.

"It has me baffled," says Lew Hayman, the Argos' honorary chairman and former president. "I'm very curious about it. You can rationalize the thing, I suppose, and say that the big ticket in Toronto was the Blue Jay baseball team, but I don't think that's the answer. I'm at a loss for an explanation. I just don't understand it."

In 1979 and 1980, the last two years of Hayman's presidency, the Argos concentrated heavily on marketing, and drew 320,358 and 303,853 fans respectively. Those attendance figures were registered despite the fact that they finished in last place with records of 5-11 and 6-10, respectively.

Hayman's successor, Ralph Sazio, has always maintained that winning would result in sizeable crowds, so he de-emphasized the marketing program after arriving in Toronto in 1981. But his theory has been proved inaccurate this season, and the Argos will suffer a loss of nearly $1-million.

Reasons for the Argos' attendance problems vary, depending on whom you're asking.

The two mentioned, the Blue Jay success and the lack of Argo marketing, are common expalantions. The shaky economy is another. So are the poor station, terrible public relations, the lack of continuity on CFL rosters and the over-exposure of football in general.

The senior Argo player, however, has an altogether different answer. Quarterback Joe Barnes' reason is simply that Toronto is no longer a football town.

"How else can you explain it?" Barnes says, "We've done pretty well this year, but the fans don't seem to care."

Barnes also expresses concern about the rowdiness in the football crowds at Exhibition Stadium.

Fans have smuggled booze into Argo games for years, but, perhaps strictly by coincidence the rowdiness has grown this season -- after beer sales were inaugurated last year.

On Saturday during the Argos' 33-9 triumph over Winnipeg Blue Bombers, for example, three men were seen urinating in the stands. Several fights broke out as well.

"I've been talking to some people about this," Barnes says. "Some of the things that go on in the stands are disgraceful. Who wants to bring their family out to our games, spend $50 and then be abused and exposed to the garbage that goes on in the stands when they can sit home and so something else?

The lack of fan support, however, is disturbing to Barnes and his teammates.

"It isn't enjoyable seeing empty seats," he said. "Sure, it bothers you."

Terry Greer, the Argos' superb wide receiver, concurs.

"It's disturbing," Greer says. "We've lost a few home games this year (three) and maybe the fans are disappointed about that, I don't know. But we should be having more fans with the record we've had this year. You appreciate the ones do come out, that's for sure. You just wish there were more."

Barnes is confident Argo fans can be won back, eventually, but he believes a domed stadium is required first.

"Hopefully," he says, "we'll get a dome in here and the novelty will start bringing 60,000 people out for our football games.

--

The part I bolded is relevant because some of those points are the same today.

[Neely2005]

It could also just be that Toronto loves a loser.

I guess that the domed stadium didn't work out so well.

[ArgoRavi]

If Greer and Barnes were disturbed by seeing an average of 17k empty seats in a 54k seat stadium, I can only imagine what they would say today when only about 17k seats are being filled in a similar size of stadium. Thanks for finding that article, Will, as that is the one I was talking about. Not sure why I remember that article in particular but I always have, perhaps because it was a foreshadowing of sorts.