Is lack of sustained on-field success a factor in Argo attendance problems?

[Invader]

Then there was Blue Jays Mania which hit big time in 1985, revolving commissioners after Jake Gaudaur, a substantial drop in league revenues with the expiration of the 1984-86 TV contract, the Alouettes folding on the eve of the '87 season, financial troubles with the Riders and Stamps, the extended ineptness of Ottawa (twice), mixed fortunes with U.S. expansion, the change in perception that the Dome was built for the Jays rather than the Argos, the Jays contending every year and then winning it all twice, shifting media coverage, rapid growth of NFL TV contracts, endless speculation of NFL expansion to Toronto, the coming of the Raptors, the transformation of the Leafs from a small-time operation to a huge corporation, a clear shift in the strength of the CFL from East to West.

It goes on and on.

Great overview, Argolio.

Since the Renegades suspended operations, which was a huge source of negative news for the league, the CFL has been on the upswing. Now there's mainly good news across the league. All we need is to relocate the Argos into a more intimate football stadium, like happened in Mtl, and happy days will be here again! New owners, new stadium, new attitude. Enjoy Canadian football for what it is!

[AngeloV]

Great overview, Argolio.

Since the Renegades suspended operations, which was a huge source of negative news for the league, the CFL has been on the upswing. Now there's mainly good news across the league. All we need is to relocate the Argos into a more intimate football stadium, like happened in Mtl, and happy days will be here again! New owners, new stadium, new attitude. Enjoy Canadian football for what it is!

Problem is, unless Braley becomes more reasonable in terms of his asking price, will they ever have new owners, new stadium, new attitude?

[Neely2005]

Problem is, unless Braley becomes more reasonable in terms of his asking price, will they ever have new owners, new stadium, new attitude?

You don't think that the rumoured price of $10 Million is reasonable?

[ArgoRavi]

You don't think that the rumoured price of $10 Million is reasonable?

It is $10 million plus Braley wants a percentage of revenues going forward (reportedly). With MLSE balking, they don't seem to think it is reasonable which is a problem.

[AngeloV]

You don't think that the rumoured price of $10 Million is reasonable?

No I don't. How can $10M be reasonable when the last 2 owners, including the current one, have been given the team (free of charge) after the league had revoked it from the previous owner? It's not like they've turned it around and are playing in front of a full house. As was mentioned earlier, Braley should just give the team up to MLSE and the league should say thanks and give him an additional Grey Cup to host in B.C. That would be his $10M right there.

[Neely2005]

It is $10 million plus Braley wants a percentage of revenues going forward (reportedly). With MLSE balking, they don't seem to think it is reasonable which is a problem.

Yeah the percentage of future revenue doesn't make sense, it's probably just a negotiation tactic.

No I don't. How can $10M be reasonable when the last 2 owners, including the current one, have been given the team (free of charge) after the league had revoked it from the previous owner? It's not like they've turned it around and are playing in front of a full house. As was mentioned earlier, Braley should just give the team up to MLSE and the league should say thanks and give him an additional Grey Cup to host in B.C. That would be his $10M right there.

Plenty of money losing professional sports teams have been sold for more than they were bought for. In fact when was the last time that a professional sports team was sold (from one owner to another owner) for less than the Seller originally paid for it? I certainly can't think of an example. Owners make most of their profit when they sell the team.

[AngeloV]

Plenty of money losing professional sports teams have been sold for more than they were bought for. In fact when was the last time that a professional sports team was sold (from one owner to another owner) for less than the Seller originally paid for it? I certainly can't think of an example. Owners make most of their profit when they sell the team.

As I said, the team was revoked from the last 2 owners (Schwartz and C&S) and all Braley did was pick up the outstanding debt. With that history, and the report of season ticket sales dwindling, how can anyone think this team can be sold for an actual dollar exchange? At this point, I truly believe that the they will be lucky to find any buyers willing to pay cash for it.

I truly still believe MLSE will own the team and they will end up at BMO, but my thinking is unless Braley basically gives them the team, they are going to wait to aquire the team the same way that both C&S and Braley did.

[T-Bone]

I truly still believe MLSE will own the team and they will end up at BMO, but my thinking is unless Braley basically gives them the team, they are going to wait to aquire the team the same way that both C&S and Braley did.

I agree and still think MLSE will own the team. There doesn't appear to be any buyers so there is no urgency for MLSE to buy the team at this time, they can sit and wait Braley out. I think the most MLSE would be willing to pay is the $10M to accommodate the Argos at BMO Field.

[Neely2005]

As I said, the team was revoked from the last 2 owners (Schwartz and C&S) and all Braley did was pick up the outstanding debt. With that history, and the report of season ticket sales dwindling, how can anyone think this team can be sold for an actual dollar exchange? At this point, I truly believe that the they will be lucky to find any buyers willing to pay cash for it.

I truly still believe MLSE will own the team and they will end up at BMO, but my thinking is unless Braley basically gives them the team, they are going to wait to aquire the team the same way that both C&S and Braley did.

So you think that Braley should just give the team away for free?

I think that $10 Million (period, no percentage of future revenues) is a reasonable price.

[Argo57]

So you think that Braley should just give the team away for free?

I think that $10 Million (period, no percentage of future revenues) is a reasonable price.

Honestly sounds like a lot to me, I'd like to know what any prospective owner would be getting for their money.
Judging by the lack of people lining up to purchase this franchise our question may already have been answered.

[AngeloV]

So you think that Braley should just give the team away for free?

I think that $10 Million (period, no percentage of future revenues) is a reasonable price.

How is it reasonable?

Stop thinking like a fan for a moment here. The last two times the team has changed ownership, no money was exchanged. The team is not in better shape now financially (other than having someone that will pay their bills) than they were either of those times. If they can get MLSE to take this team and move it into a moe suitable stadium, the league needs to step in and make it happen. It they have any games this season where the crowd at the dome appears to be 10k or less, I say it's time to revoke the franchise from Braley as well.

[ArgoRavi]

How is it reasonable?

Stop thinking like a fan for a moment here. The last two times the team has changed ownership, no money was exchanged. The team is not in better shape now financially (other than having someone that will pay their bills) than they were either of those times. If they can get MLSE to take this team and move it into a moe suitable stadium, the league needs to step in and make it happen. It they have any games this season where the crowd at the dome appears to be 10k or less, I say it's time to revoke the franchise from Braley as well.

I got the sense from the Cohon interview with McCown that he isn't expecting great attendance this season. I really feel like this franchise is back to where they were in 2003 - in regard to their attendance and profile in the city - and that is not a good thing. The difference is that there is a very viable solution this time with the sale of the team to MLSE and a move to BMO Field that did not exist over ten years ago.

[Argo57]

How is it reasonable?

Stop thinking like a fan for a moment here. The last two times the team has changed ownership, no money was exchanged. The team is not in better shape now financially (other than having someone that will pay their bills) than they were either of those times. If they can get MLSE to take this team and move it into a moe suitable stadium, the league needs to step in and make it happen. It they have any games this season where the crowd at the dome appears to be 10k or less, I say it's time to revoke the franchise from Braley as well.

100% correct IMO what any potential owner would be purchasing are"potential earnings" and little else (as it currently stands).
All leads back to MLSE, they have the ideal stadium, financial resources,and corporate marketing cache necessary to turn the Argos around.
Braley has kept the team afloat (for which he should and has been acknowledged) but is acting like he has turned this franchise into a financial and marketing juggernaut which in actuality is deteriorating by the day.
The sooner Braley realizes that he needs MLSE more than they need him something might get done.
Argo ownership completely pissed away a great opportunity to be part of BMO a few years ago and in the height of stupidity could do it again if not careful!!!!!

[argolio]

I think that $10 Million (period, no percentage of future revenues) is a reasonable price.

Then why aren't there any other buyers out there who think it's worth that? Anyone? Bueller??

[Neely2005]

How is it reasonable?

Stop thinking like a fan for a moment here. The last two times the team has changed ownership, no money was exchanged. The team is not in better shape now financially (other than having someone that will pay their bills) than they were either of those times. If they can get MLSE to take this team and move it into a moe suitable stadium, the league needs to step in and make it happen. It they have any games this season where the crowd at the dome appears to be 10k or less, I say it's time to revoke the franchise from Braley as well.

The franchise still has value regardless of what it sold for in the past. The Phoenix Coyotes went bankrupt and were owned by the league and the league didn't give them away they sold the team for $170 Million.

[argolio]

The franchise still has value regardless of what it sold for in the past. The Phoenix Coyotes went bankrupt and were owned by the league and the league didn't give them away they sold the team for $170 Million.

That's a deal with a five year out clause that was partially funded by the league and Glendale taxpayers

The NHL paid $140M to get the Coyotes out of bankruptcy, so they didn't exactly rake it in after owning the team for four years.

[AngeloV]

The franchise still has value regardless of what it sold for in the past. The Phoenix Coyotes went bankrupt and were owned by the league and the league didn't give them away they sold the team for $170 Million.

Yes, but there is a history of the Argos been given away for free. The last person that actually paid for them had no clue of the true value, but listened to BS advice from one J.I. Albreicht. There is no similar history in the NHL.

Look, if you want to keep looking at this situation as a fan that stays extremely optimistic, go ahead. In the end, the Argos and league may even come up with some sort of price tag if and when MLSE takes ownership. I personally won't believe it. It would be more of a save face smoke screen IMO. I highly doubt actual dollars will change hands with the changing of ownership.

[ArgoZ]

I got the sense from the Cohon interview with McCown that he isn't expecting great attendance this season. I really feel like this franchise is back to where they were in 2003 - in regard to their attendance and profile in the city - and that is not a good thing. The difference is that there is a very viable solution this time with the sale of the team to MLSE and a move to BMO Field that did not exist over ten years ago.

The Montreal Alouettes past franchise and stadium issues were near identical at the time. There is an opportunity to turn this around and become a modest success. Frustrating for us fans for sure.

[rdavies]

As bleak as the Toronto situation is, I don't think it could be any worse than what transpired in Montreal. I think there were far more factors against Montreal than face Toronto. I believe it can be turned around but it takes proaction and all I can see is fiddling while Rome is burning.

Even it there is something going on behind the scenes, you have to let your fanbase and potential fanbase know that there is hope on the horizon or a plan to get there. This is to me where Argo leadership has failed, big time.

And again, even worst case scenario, if the Argos are dead or dying in the GTA sports market, I have a hard time believing that in an area of what? 5 million that you couldn't dig up at least 22k (to break even) contrarians to support the Argos.

I understand it costs more to do business in Toronto, or so I've been told. There are union costs etc, but I'd be interested to find out what the costs are and why 22k in most other cities can break even and why it can't in Toronto. I'm not doubting it, I just want to know.

Surely there must be one rebel not under the Rogers thumb who can do an investigative piece on where all this money goes that the Argos supposedly lose every year (to the tune or 3-6 million, or so we've been told)

[R.J]

Considering MLSE had originally offered Braley a reported $8 million, $10 million does not seem unreasonable and I highly doubt that number is what held back the sale.
If the rumour of Braley wanting a percentage of future Grey Cup profits is true, that would seem to be the real issue.
Braley should have sold the team when he had his chance, even at $8 million, he would have walked away with money and clearly he's done nothing positive or of note since his take over of the Argonauts.