Is lack of sustained on-field success a factor in Argo attendance problems?

[Neely2005]

Considering MLSE had originally offered Braley a reported $8 million, $10 million does not seem unreasonable and I highly doubt that number is what held back the sale.
If the rumour of Braley wanting a percentage of future Grey Cup profits is true, that would seem to be the real issue.
Braley should have sold the team when he had his chance, even at $8 million, he would have walked away with money and clearly he's done nothing positive or of note since his take over of the Argonauts.

Yeah I don't understand what Braley is thinking in asking for a percentage of future Grey Cup revenue after he's sold the team.

[Rich]

There is no question in my mind that the Argos would be a lot harder to ignore in this city if they were seen as perennial contenders. Over the past 25 years, the haters and the ignorers have liked to say that the Argos suck, and more often than not, they'd be right. I'd say a 10-year run of excellence will help overcome that impression going forward. We're in year 3, by the time we're in BMO it will be year 5 and the new image of the Argos will already be well underway.

[1argoholic]

The team has really never been marketed properly. Someone like MLSE would market the hell out of the team and do really well with merch. There are plenty of Argo fans that sit at home watching games. We all are waiting for the right owners who do everything to make this team successful on and off the field. Just look at how many people got sucked into the Blue Jay hype of the last two years. For years you barely saw Jays merch being worn and now you see suckers wearing Jays hats all over as the Jays start to crap away another year.

[T-Bone]

Over the past 25 years, the haters and the ignorers have liked to say that the Argos suck, and more often than not, they'd be right.

If someone is ignoring, how can they also be actively hating? Anyway, I think lack of knowledge is probably a lot worse than the hating. At least the hater knows something about what is going on but the person ignoring probably knows very little to nothing. There seems to be many people in this city that know very little to nothing about the Argos.

[VANRIDERFAN]

From the voice of the Roughriders, Rod Pedersen.
Now this is the view from an outsider (same as I) but we are concerned outsiders. We would like to see the RC packed for Argo games.
Anyway here is his comments on the lack of CFL interest in the Big Smoke.

http://www.rodpedersen.com/2014/07/d...ng-goalie.html

So the evening before the game, I met a nice couple from Buffalo, NY in an Italian restaurant called Kit Kat. They saw my Grey Cup ring and started up a conversation. Of course, with Americans, those discussions always begin with Doug Flutie. Regardless, these folks - both Buffalo Bills season ticket holders - were up for the weekend and staying just a few blocks from Rogers Centre. However they had absolutely no idea the Argonauts were playing at home that weekend. When I told them the game details, they jumped on it. The cheapest tickets can be had for $37 while the most-expensive are $106. I'm not sure which they chose.

But the fact these tourists didn't even know there was a CFL game on during their stay is the quintessential example of dropping the ball. That's the essence of marketing; making people aware of your product. I learned that during my studies at the School of Hard Knocks. If you're a sports team and people don't know when you're playing at home, how are they supposed to come to your games?

Now, I don't blame the Argonauts marketing staff nor the Toronto media. The Argos threw their hands up in the air long ago when it comes to marketing their team. They won a Grey Cup and Torontonians still didn't care. TSN's Sportscentre had CFL stories running as the #2 item behind Wimbledon all weekend. If you didn't know the Argos were playing at home last weekend, you likely weren't paying attention.

And therefore, I blame Torontonians. Sunday was a slow day on Twitter so I fired up the notion, along with @FakeGainer, that the Argos should be moved to Moncton. Well that got people in Toronto all fired up, not the least of which are long-time Toronto football reporters Dan Ralph of the Canadian Press and Mike Hogan, the Voice of the Argos on TSN Radio.

Hogan wrote on Twitter, "Yep, move 'em. Should have moved the Riders there in the late 80's too. Smh". (Shake my head)

Of course we all know that's an Apples and Oranges discussion and I don't have it in me to argue with Hogan at my advanced age. We would have won that argument without even breaking a sweat but for now, we'll let it die. Comparing the Riders to the Argos is like comparing Jenny McCarthy to her cousin Melissa.

And that's exactly what's happening to the Toronto Argonauts. They're dying. The once proud franchise - the oldest pro football team in North America - is withering up like a weed right before our very eyes. You can blame the traffic or whatever you want all day long. However the Blue Jays, Raptors, Maple Leafs and Toronto FC all play downtown and nobody complains about going to those games. It's like people griping about Sask Place being on the outskirts of Saskatoon. Either you want to go, or you don't.

The Argos are sliding right off the page and within a few years they won't even have a place to play because they're being booted out of Rogers Centre.

However the feeling I got in Toronto over the weekend was a notion of, "What? Me Worry?" If the football people in that city aren't concerned, then why the hell should I be?

[AngeloV]

I definitely agree with Pederson's take that many people have no idea when the Argos are playing. This was a Saturday afternoon game. The Argos should have had every radio station and not just sports radio and TV station in the city hyping the hell out of the game. But we all know there is no cash going into building off field success for this team.


As for his take on the Riders of the 80's to today's Argos being apples and oranges, I don't agree with him there. It's easy to make that assessment now when the Riders are so popular, but I remember the telethon's in the 80's. The Riders were a lot closer to folding then than the Argos are now.

[Will]

Pedersen writes the exact same article every year about moving the Argos and now seems taken aback when Argo fans dare to get just a little bit angry about the suggestion? There's a reason I cheered for Hamilton in the Grey Cup last year and this is part of it.

Again, I'll reiterate, the massive popularity of the Roughriders really began in 2007 when they won that Grey Cup. They were popular before that to be sure, but it hadn't taken on the levels that it had now. The constant reference to other teams' attendance by Rider stakeholders is one of the reasons they are now the most hated team in the CFL instead of being everyone's second favorite team.

But, if Pedersen of the Saintly Rider broadcasts and some silly twitter account insist the Argos be moved then who are we to argue with them?

[VANRIDERFAN]

Pedersen writes the exact same article every year about moving the Argos and now seems taken aback when Argo fans dare to get just a little bit angry about the suggestion? There's a reason I cheered for Hamilton in the Grey Cup last year and this is part of it.

Again, I'll reiterate, the massive popularity of the Roughriders really began in 2007 when they won that Grey Cup. They were popular before that to be sure, but it hadn't taken on the levels that it had now. The constant reference to other teams' attendance by Rider stakeholders is one of the reasons they are now the most hated team in the CFL instead of being everyone's second favorite team.

Taken aback? No, he was wanting a response and he got one.
As for the second favourite team? The only reason for that was because we were the loveable losers. Screw that noise.

[Mulder]

As for the second favourite team? The only reason for that was because we were the loveable losers. Screw that noise.

You and other Rider fans can keep thinking it's because "We are no longer the lovable losers" If that gives you guys peace of mind.

The fact is the Riderfan base became a very arrogant and cocky group after winning the 2007 Grey Cup. Always attempting to get in the face of other fan bases. Always telling what other fan bases or other teams should be doing. You certainly didn't see it from the other Grey Cup winners fans. Even after we've been Montreal wipping boy in the playoffs for the better part of the last 10-15 years. One even attempted to steal my Argo Flag & a ripped up a sign I made.
What happened to the humble group of Riderfans?

A team doesn't go from everybody's second favourite, to the most hated just because they are winning.

[VANRIDERFAN]

You and other Rider fans can keep thinking it's because "We are no longer the lovable losers" If that gives you guys peace of mind.

The fact is the Riderfan base became a very arrogant and cocky group after winning the 2007 Grey Cup. Always attempting to get in the face of other fan bases. Always telling what other fan bases or other teams should be doing. You certainly didn't see it from the other Grey Cup winners fans. Even after we've been Montreal wipping boy in the playoffs for the better part of the last 10-15 years. One even attempted to steal my Argo Flag & a ripped up a sign I made.
What happened to the humble group of Riderfans?

A team doesn't go from everybody's second favourite, to the most hated just because they are winning.

An Als fan did that? I have been accosted by Lions fans at BC place. Does that mean all Lions fans are a-holes? Not in the least.

Once again, these are concerned outsiders view of what is going on in our biggest market
Look, like it or not your team is in deep trouble, indifference from the general public, hostility from some members of the public and derision from your local media and finally an owner who doesn't seem to give two hoots about marketing the team. There has to be an answer to your troubles somewhere.

I am a person who wants to see all teams (except maybe the Eskimos) have great success on and off the field. If we didn't care we wouldn't comment.
But fire away, boys its your forum.
Cheers!

[Will]

I don't see Pedersen's tweet as constituting concern. He's outright coming out and saying essentially that the team should be moved.

Were all perfectly aware of the challenges the Argos are facing right now, but the fact is, I'm going to get damned well angry when people start suggesting the team should be moved.

[1argoholic]

There's a reason that HUGE corporations like McDonalds, Wendy's, Tims, Mazda, Ford, etc..etc still market and fill our tv screens with crappy commercials because you always have to be on peoples minds. They don't need to run ads but it's all about being seen.

As I've mentioned time and time again, The Argonauts never had to market much at CNE but they have done little since moving to Skydome. Grey Cup 100 proved to me how many Argo fans are out there and really care. I had never heard the place so loud and rockin from every Calgary offensive huddle until the play was dead, then repeat. The place was full of Argo fans who would love nothing more then to be out of Rogers at this point. Problem now is that we stuck with a guy who happens to own the team who really has no feeling about this team. He has proven time and time again that he loves his Lions but the Argos where a project that he's given up on. He's gotten tighter than Harry Ornest who had the players scrambling for toilet paper he was so cheap. He wasn't paying bills. I had a friend who did Physio on players at her Oakville clinic at the time who wasn't getting paid. Now here we go again.

So I too remember the days where The Riders had more empty seats then full and the CFL community rallied around them.The days where Sask was a have not province and it's greatest export was it's people. The same people who now glam on to the green and white as the team plays in each CFL city. These wagon jumpers dust off any old green and white clothing they have to attend games in the new cities they call home. That shows that it's never too late to turn an organization around. Sask has done a great job.
I remember marching around Skydome with a combo of Ticat and Argo fans yelling save the Cats.
Calgary had it's issues. Hell all teams have yet everyone wants to always toss the Argos under the bus. This is the oldest professional team in North America playing in a very unique city. A huge percentage of Torontonians have moved from other countries and football to them means kicking around a round ball. The Argos hold some responsibility for not pushing and marketing our brand of football to these new Canadians year after year with very interesting and inventive marketing. Market the hell out of the team every year at these huge festivals such as Pride, Caribana and every other massive weekly event taking place in TO.

However Braley won't spend any money on this and now he's shown that he's a greedy old fart to boot. He'll be filling his pockets for the third time in four years thanks to Grey Cup.

Just read the part about asshole Rider fans and there is way too many at this point. Too many young wagon jumper Rider fans getting all hopped up on Pil Swill and act way over the top stupid. The racist comments I've mentioned on here many times spewed by these fools makes me sick. If I was a good down to earth Rider fan I'd be pissed with these clowns. A guy telling telling my father in law that he'd be dead before the Stamps win another cup while he was siting in his own seasons at Grey Cup in Calgary.The family has had those seats since the stadium opened. Karma hit quick with the 13thman that day. That same guy was balling like a baby after that game. He's lucky that my firefighter brother in law only reached over and quietly said something in this buttplugs ear. Not one other CFL fan I know likes the Riders. Many of us Grey Cup regulars skipped last year because it was in Regina. I had two previous great trips there but I'd had enough at this point. I know there are still great Rider fans but way to many have become a royal arse pain.

[Mulder]

An Als fan did that? I have been accosted by Lions fans at BC place. Does that mean all Lions fans are a-holes? Not in the least.

Nope, It was a Rider Fan. In my own stadium.

And you're right, I've met some awesome Rider Fans. But the more there is the more douchebags there is.

Once again, these are concerned outsiders view of what is going on in our biggest market
Look, like it or not your team is in deep trouble, indifference from the general public, hostility from some members of the public and derision from your local media and finally an owner who doesn't seem to give two hoots about marketing the team. There has to be an answer to your troubles somewhere.

I am a person who wants to see all teams (except maybe the Eskimos) have great success on and off the field. If we didn't care we wouldn't comment.
But fire away, boys its your forum.
Cheers!

There are people over at Riderfans.com licking their chops and predicting the failure of the Ottawa Franchise again. The perception out there is the majority of riderfans care only about the Riders, and would be perfectly happy with an 18 game schedule consisting of Team Rider White (with Green strips) vs Team Riders Green. Meanwhile, the majority of the fans from other teams across the league care more deeply about the league and it's health as a whole. Not saying it's you, but giving you what the other teams fanbases actually think of the Riders and their fan base. As I said, it's not because you guys are no longer the lovable losers.

So I too remember the days where The Riders had more empty seats then full and the CFL community rallied around them.The days where Sask was a have not province and it's greatest export was it's people. The same people who now glam on to the green and white as the team plays in each CFL city. These wagon jumpers dust off any old green and white clothing they have to attend games in the new cities they call home. That shows that it's never too late to turn an organization around. Sask has done a great job.
I remember marching around Skydome with a combo of Ticat and Argo fans yelling save the Cats.

I'll steal this one from Cossack.

"Saskatchewan's 2nd entertainment option is to move away from Saskatchewan and tell everybody how great it is."

[1argoholic]

Big Green incestfest is what I call Mosaic. You never see other teams fans in there. I'm sure they don't let them in.

[ArgoGabe22]

Here's a question for members who live around the GTA - why aren't you going to Argo games or why aren't you a STH?

I'm not looking to call you out if you don't attend games in person but just curious why? I don't think we can assume every member on here is a STH or attend every game live because it just won't happen.

I for one got into coaching and the last two years had horrible schedules and I have to be with my team since I am the only one qualified to do so so I dropped seasons. I still get the flex packs and will go to any game that fits my schedule. My father complains about the transportation even though we now take the GO train but I don't think transportation will ever factor into our decision of attending.

[Neely2005]

Here's a question for members who live around the GTA - why aren't you going to Argo games or why aren't you a STH?

I'm not looking to call you out if you don't attend games in person but just curious why? I don't think we can assume every member on here is a STH or attend every game live because it just won't happen.

I for one got into coaching and the last two years had horrible schedules and I have to be with my team since I am the only one qualified to do so so I dropped seasons. I still get the flex packs and will go to any game that fits my schedule. My father complains about the transportation even though we now take the GO train but I don't think transportation will ever factor into our decision of attending.

Good question, probably deserving of it's own Thread.

[QBall]

I think the venue is a big problem. Not in terms of capacity or facilities, but if one were to stand outside RC you wouldn't be able to tell that the Argos even play there. Rogers is a terrible landlord and the Argos need a venue where they can plaster their brand on the outside in order to gain visibility within the city and make themselves relevant.

[Neely2005]

The sight lines are also pretty bad for football.

[AngeloV]

The sight lines are also pretty bad for football.

They are in the 100 level. That's why I sit in the 200. Switched to 100 about 12 years ago for 1 season, and immediately swithed back the next. 200 level is really good.

[Neely2005]

They are in the 100 level. That's why I sit in the 200. Switched to 100 about 12 years ago for 1 season, and immediately swithed back the next. 200 level is really good.

I agree with you and I also sit in the 200 Level. However the way that the 200 Level arcs makes it so that you are farther away from the field the closer that you get to the 50 Yard line of the 200 Level.