Why has Argonauts Home Game Attendance declined so much in 1 year? (2013-2014)

[argolio]

It isn't the media's job to market the Argos but the lack of media coverage about the team doesn't help either. The other major pro Toronto sports teams all market themselves well but they also get more media coverage than the Argos do.

Speaking of media coverage, I wonder if the Sun's CFL coverage will change now that the Post is (subject to approval) buying the Sun.

[Argocister]

Speaking of media coverage, I wonder if the Sun's CFL coverage will change now that the Post is (subject to approval) buying the Sun.

I don't get either paper.... And only read articles as they are referred to here .... But who covers CFL and the
Argos in the Post? If there is duplication ..... Who would you prefer to keep ?

[ArgoRavi]

I agree it is a factor. Unfortunately as argofan87 pointed out there is not much the Argos can do to make the media report about them so they have to market themselves in other ways. As Argos23 has pointed out it is difficult if you have limited resources. In my opinion, things like road closures and transit closures are extremely minor factors when it comes to attendance because like I said earlier people that want to go will find a way. I feel pointing to those things is more of an excuse than a factor in attendance. Jays attendance shows that despite those things they still get crowds. We have an attendance issue. I've been asked more this year than any other year by people on my way to games "The Argos are playing today?" There seems to be a lack of knowledge in the city about the team and when they play.

I feel that the casual fan depends more on the media to let them know when Toronto's sports teams are playing. The Argos certainly have to do more to market themselves but when the sports media in Toronto largely ignores the Argos, I can understand why so many casual fans have no idea when the Argos are playing. The media drives the "water cooler" talk and the Argos certainly come up short in that department.

I don't get either paper.... And only read articles as they are referred to here .... But who covers CFL and the
Argos in the Post? If there is duplication ..... Who would you prefer to keep ?

Sean Fitz-Gerald and Mark Masters used to be the beat reporters for the Argos in the Post. However, the former was reassigned to the Leafs while the latter departed for TSN where he mostly covers the Leafs. Wasn't Matt Scianitti also a beat reporter for the Argos in the Post? He, of course, is now at TSN. Over the last year or two, I have noticed that the Post no longer has a regular beat reporter for the Argos so it is pretty much the Sun's Frank Zicarelli or bust.

[paulwoods13]

I was at a Jays game this year and I am sure the crowd was smaller than the Argo game on Saturday against Edmonton. They've had some very small crowds the past two years and more. They only draw big crowds on opening day and then a few Yankees or Red Sox games, which inflates the average.

This is simply not true. With 81 games, you could not get much inflation from a few games. The Jays did have some small crowds this year, but they also had lots of big crowds on weekends, and not just against the Yankees and Red Sox. To my surprise, they have inserted themselves back into the city's sporting consciousness. Five-10 years ago I thought they would be gone by now.

[Will]

The idea that the Jays only drew against the Red Sox and Yankees hasn't held much water for the past few years. The Blue Jays tend to have crowds below 20,000 during the week still, but that number would boost on the weekends regardless of the opponent.

[T-Bone]

I feel that the casual fan depends more on the media to let them know when Toronto's sports teams are playing. The Argos certainly have to do more to market themselves but when the sports media in Toronto largely ignores the Argos, I can understand why so many casual fans have no idea when the Argos are playing. The media drives the "water cooler" talk and the Argos certainly come up short in that department.

But if the team can't get more media attention then they need to do something to get the attention of those casual fans. I'm not saying it is easy and more funds are probably required. An aggressive ad campaign sustained for the entire season is probably needed. If the team moves to BMO Field they will get media attention, but what concerns me is for how long? If attendance isn't great will it be more of the same negative media attention?

The idea that the Jays only drew against the Red Sox and Yankees hasn't held much water for the past few years. The Blue Jays tend to have crowds below 20,000 during the week still, but that number would boost on the weekends regardless of the opponent.

Here are the numbers for Jays home attendance this past season and here are the year by year totals from 1977 to today.

[Invader]

But if the team can't get more media attention then they need to do something to get the attention of those casual fans. I'm not saying it is easy and more funds are probably required. An aggressive ad campaign sustained for the entire season is probably needed. If the team moves to BMO Field they will get media attention, but what concerns me is for how long? If attendance isn't great will it be more of the same negative media attention?


Here are the numbers for Jays home attendance this past season and here are the year by year totals from 1977 to today.

We should keep in mind that Beeston publically apologized a couple years ago because the BJ's had been grossly inflating their announced attendance for many years. They were claiming 20,000+ crowds when anyone could see there were only 8,000 or less at Skydome. Some of the media made mention of the smaller crowds but the BJ's retorted that attendance wasn't important and requested that the media no longer quote BJ's crowd counts in their stories...which all the media complied with for many years.

The BJ's crowds have bounced back the past couple years, but we shouldn't just rely on Rogers "announced" crowds for past seasons as a true reflection of their fan support.

Many sceptics claim the Argos and other teams also lie also about their attendance...but only the BJ's were forced to admit it with so many empty seats at Skydome for their baseball games.

The Raptors indicated last week the Argos had more season ticket holders than the Raptors last year. The velocipede's management was crowing last week they'd sold over 3,000 more seasons tickets than last year and if the ticket sales pace continued, they'd be close to 500 tickets away of their 13,000 season ticket goal for this season. So the Raptors had sold fewer than 9,500 season tickets last year...which was below the Argos claimed subscriber base of 10,000.

[Will]

The Raptors indicated last week the Argos had more season ticket holders than the Raptors last year. The velocipede's management was crowing last week they'd sold over 3,000 more seasons tickets than last year and if the ticket sales pace continued, they'd be close to 500 tickets away of their 13,000 season ticket goal for this season. So the Raptors had sold fewer than 9,500 season tickets last year...which was below the Argos claimed subscriber base of 10,000.

Source please?

[AngeloV]

We should keep in mind that Beeston publically apologized a couple years ago because the BJ's had been grossly inflating their announced attendance for many years. They were claiming 20,000+ crowds when anyone could see there were only 8,000 or less at Skydome. Some of the media made mention of the smaller crowds but the BJ's retorted that attendance wasn't important and requested that the media no longer quote BJ's crowd counts in their stories...which all the media complied with for many years.

The BJ's crowds have bounced back the past couple years, but we shouldn't just rely on Rogers "announced" crowds for past seasons as a true reflection of their fan support.

Many sceptics claim the Argos and other teams also lie also about their attendance...but only the BJ's were forced to admit it with so many empty seats at Skydome for their baseball games.

The Raptors indicated last week the Argos had more season ticket holders than the Raptors last year. The velocipede's management was crowing last week they'd sold over 3,000 more seasons tickets than last year and if the ticket sales pace continued, they'd be close to 500 tickets away of their 13,000 season ticket goal for this season. So the Raptors had sold fewer than 9,500 season tickets last year...which was below the Argos claimed subscriber base of 10,000.

Honestly, why must you constantly come on here and feed such B.S.?

[Neely2005]

Honestly, why must you constantly come on here and feed such B.S.?

The part about the Blue Jays is true. I don't know about the Raptors part but their Regular Season TV Ratings have been poor so it wouldn't surprise me to hear that they had low season ticket numbers.

[Invader]

Source please?

Sorry I should have included the link to the Star puff piece in my post (which was part of my response to T-Bone's "official" BJ attendance post above):
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Raptors ticket sales jump

Since their dramatic Game 7 loss to the Brooklyn Nets, the Raptors have sold an extra 3,000 season tickets and boosted sales in almost every category, says Tom Pistore, vice-president of ticket sales at Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment.

With Air Canada Centre capacity close to 19,000, Pistore says 13,000 season tickets “is the right number. That will still allow other fans and other types of packages to access the team. But literally by next week, we’re gonna be about 500 away.”

http://www.thestar.com/sports/raptors/2014/10/02/toronto_raptors_ticket_sales_jump.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's do the math. If the Raptors have sold 3,000 more seasons tickets than last year...and by next week they're gonna be about 500 away from their 13,000 target...that means they couldn't have sold more than 9,500 seasons tickets last year (9500 + 3000 + 500 = 13,000). I know MLSE forces many Leaf subscribers to also buy Raptors tickets. I wonder how many of those Raptors 9,500 season ticket holders last year were actually basketball fans?

I only mention this because many posters quote media sources who dump all over the Argos and their attendance...but other Toronto teams like the Raptors and TFC (which struggle to draw 100,000 viewers on national TV) or the BJ's who've fudged their announced attendance figures...aren't the Leafs either.


wow, this website sure has a crazy text editor?

[AngeloV]

Sorry I should have included the link to the Star puff piece in my post (which was part of my response to T-Bone's "official" BJ attendance post above):
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Raptors ticket sales jump

Since their dramatic Game 7 loss to the Brooklyn Nets, the Raptors have sold an extra 3,000 season tickets and boosted sales in almost every category, says Tom Pistore, vice-president of ticket sales at Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment.

With Air Canada Centre capacity close to 19,000, Pistore says 13,000 season tickets “is the right number. That will still allow other fans and other types of packages to access the team. But literally by next week, we’re gonna be about 500 away.”

http://www.thestar.com/sports/raptors/2014/10/02/toronto_raptors_ticket_sales_jump.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's do the math. If the Raptors have sold 3,000 more seasons tickets than last year...and by next week they're gonna be about 500 away from their 13,000 target...that means they couldn't have sold more than 9,500 seasons tickets last year (9500 + 3000 + 500 = 13,000). I know MLSE forces many Leaf subscribers to also buy Raptors tickets. I wonder how many of those Raptors 9,500 season ticket holders last year were actually basketball fans?

I only mention this because many posters quote media sources who dump all over the Argos and their attendance...but other Toronto teams like the Raptors and TFC (which struggle to draw 100,000 viewers on national TV) or the BJ's who've fudged their announced attendance figures...aren't the Leafs either.


wow, this website sure has a crazy text editor?

And where is your source that the Argos had 9,500 ST holders in 2013?

[T-Bone]

And where is your source that the Argos had 9,500 ST holders in 2013?

I would like to know that as well. We have a ticket rep telling a member of this board that season ticket sales were around 4,000 at the beginning of the season:

There is a difference between a ticket rep telling ArgoTom that they "hope to have 10,000"
Then another account rep telling me renewals are at 80%, which puts them around 4,000. (not including new sales)

I only mention this because many posters quote media sources who dump all over the Argos and their attendance...but other Toronto teams like the Raptors and TFC (which struggle to draw 100,000 viewers on national TV) or the BJ's who've fudged their announced attendance figures...aren't the Leafs either.

TV ratings, tickets sold, and attendance are separate things. The Argos have amazing TV ratings but the building is looking emptier this season. Here is the ticket availability for this Friday's game against our biggest rival. The Jays have great TV ratings and their attendance the past few seasons has been good. TFC has bad TV ratings yet the tickets are selling again this season, look at the availability for tonight's game. Outside of section 325A and 4 accessibility sections there are only single tickets left. Despite some posters watching the first 5 minutes of some TFC games and then claiming BMO Field empty, the place has been close to full most of the season.

I don't only read articles, I have tickets for all three teams and I have seen game days in person for all three teams. I honestly want to see all Toronto teams do well on and off the field unlike some around here that seem to enjoy seeing other teams struggle for whatever reasons. The Jays and TFC currently both have much more stable ownership situations in my opinion. I'm not as concerned about those two teams or the Raptors long term sustainability but the Argos current situation is a little worrisome. I'm still hopeful that they will move to BMO Field and if MLSE purchases the team my concern about their long term outlook will be alleviated. In the meanwhile, I'm not going to stick my head in the sand about the reality of the current situation.

[Neely2005]

I've only been to one TFC game this season but it was far from full, throughout the entire game.

[AngeloV]

Sorry I should have included the link to the Star puff piece in my post (which was part of my response to T-Bone's "official" BJ attendance post above):
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Raptors ticket sales jump

Since their dramatic Game 7 loss to the Brooklyn Nets, the Raptors have sold an extra 3,000 season tickets and boosted sales in almost every category, says Tom Pistore, vice-president of ticket sales at Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment.

With Air Canada Centre capacity close to 19,000, Pistore says 13,000 season tickets “is the right number. That will still allow other fans and other types of packages to access the team. But literally by next week, we’re gonna be about 500 away.”

http://www.thestar.com/sports/raptors/2014/10/02/toronto_raptors_ticket_sales_jump.htm
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's do the math. If the Raptors have sold 3,000 more seasons tickets than last year...and by next week they're gonna be about 500 away from their 13,000 target...that means they couldn't have sold more than 9,500 seasons tickets last year (9500 + 3000 + 500 = 13,000). I know MLSE forces many Leaf subscribers to also buy Raptors tickets. I wonder how many of those Raptors 9,500 season ticket holders last year were actually basketball fans?

I only mention this because many posters quote media sources who dump all over the Argos and their attendance...but other Toronto teams like the Raptors and TFC (which struggle to draw 100,000 viewers on national TV) or the BJ's who've fudged their announced attendance figures...aren't the Leafs either.


wow, this website sure has a crazy text editor?

And where is your source that the Argos had 9,500 ST holders in 2013?

And let's not factor in the fact that Raptors Season tickets on average cost from 2-8k while Argos on average are 250-800 bucks. I'll also bet of the 7k seats that are not ST's, there are thousands of 10 game flex packs sold that don't factor into ST numbers. Football plays 10 home games a year period. There is no reason or logic to compare these season ticket numbers other than to be apologetic for your hero, David Braley.

[T-Bone]

And let's not factor in the fact that Raptors Season tickets on average cost from 2-8k while Argos on average are 250-800 bucks. I'll also bet of the 7k seats that are not ST's, there are thousands of 10 game flex packs sold that don't factor into ST numbers. Football plays 10 home games a year period. There is no reason or logic to compare these season ticket numbers other than to be apologetic for your hero, David Braley.

AngeloV, you should know by now that the only statistic that matters when comparing teams is TV ratings. Don't complicate things by throwing other factors and logic in to the mix.

[Invader]

I distinctly remember reading the Argos reporting they were approaching 10,000 season tickets last year (averaging about 22,000 fans per game). I guess we could believe T-Bone's source who claimed 4,000? Rogers McCown on PTS said the Argos have 3,500 ST holders this season. Who to believe?

Redoing the math, the Raptors aren't projected to be up to 12,500 until next week. So if they've sold 3,000 more already this year, they must have sold less than 9,500 last year...perhaps only 9,000.

We must also take into account how the Argos factor in corporate, sponsor and bulk sales. Are they considered "season tickets", like Braley's practice in B.C. of counting the 5,000 tickets aloted to 7/11 as seasons ticket sales, whether 7/11 actually resells the tickets or the seats remain empty.

Any way you look at it, the Argos season ticket sales are abysmal, the lowest in the CFL. This seems odd in Canada's largest city but I guess even the incredibly successful and popular NFL blacks out games if 95% of the tickets aren't sold. After 30 years of lifting home blackouts I guess we're seeing the consequences in Toronto...the Argos have developed a fanbase of Chauncy Gardner's, who prefer to watch on TV instead of "being there".

[Wobbler]

This thread doesn't really seem to be going anywhere, but I like the Being There reference, Invader.

[ArgoRavi]

We must also take into account how the Argos factor in corporate, sponsor and bulk sales. Are they considered "season tickets", like Braley's practice in B.C. of counting the 5,000 tickets aloted to 7/11 as seasons ticket sales, whether 7/11 actually resells the tickets or the seats remain empty.

If true, this makes the Lions' season ticket numbers that much more frightening. The Lions currently report 15k season ticket holders which is down from the 24k that they had when Bob Ackles died. So you are saying, Invader, that one-third of these season tickets are actually those 7/11 tickets? That leaves the Lions with only 10k season tickets otherwise in a Grey Cup hosting year? Braley not only needs to sell the Argos a.s.a.p. but he needs to sell the Lions to an owner with fresh ideas as to how to fill the seats at B.C. Place as the Lions seem headed down the same path that the Argos have been travelling.

[Neely2005]

I have updated my OP with the attendance from the last game.