August 1, 2014: Toronto Argonauts vs. Montreal Alouettes

[Rich]

I agree that he is out of sync, as I said above. But to suggest he is "below average" is plainly ridiculous. There are nine starting QBs in the league. The "average" QB would be the fifth-best, roughly speaking. Are there four QBs consistently, week after week, outplaying Ray? I haven't seen that. Reilly and Willy have had good starts but after that, who?

Ricky is the highest-paid player in the league. It is reasonable to expect an above average level of play from him, injuries or no injuries.

Meezy is absolutely right when he said good teams can overcome injuries. This happens when the team's top veterans raise the level of their game a notch, find another gear, and lift up all the new guys around them.

It seems like Tom Brady loses half his receiving corps every year thru injuries, yet he always finds a way to make it work with new guys, because he raises his game.

Surely not even Meezy could argue that Ricky has raised the level of his game in the last 3 weeks. And neither has Emry, arguably the second most-important Argo.

Luckily lots of guys on defence really picked up their games tonight, I'm hoping it will rub off a bit on the big guy and everyone else on offence.

[ArgoRavi]

That's where the depth in the backups or lack thereof is the key.

I believe that Duane Forde made a good point tonight though when he said that it takes at least a few weeks before the coaches truly understand the strengths and weaknesses of any new players so that they can properly devise a gameplan for them. The replacements that the Argos have may not be bad players but they are mostly new to the league and certainly to the system and there is an adjustment period for the both the players and coaches.

I can only think of two other times, off the top of my head, where I have seen a receiving corps decimated by injury like the Argos' corps has been this season. Three years ago, the Esks were without most of their starters for a game at home to B.C. and they ended up losing 36-1. The other time I can think of was last year when Hamilton had most of their starting receivers out and were shut out in Regina early in the season. Even then, both the Esks and Ticats were without their top three or four receivers for only a game whereas the Argos have been without their top four for two games and their top three for another game so far.

[gilthethrill]

What I am reminded of watching the Argo offence is the 2010 season. The receivers were just not able to get separation from coverage. I did not see many wide open receivers for Ray to throw to last night, making Ray look really bad. I am not sold on the Defense since they faced no competition...that is to be expected when facing a team that has no real offence due to a coaching change in preseason.

Did anyone else feel bad for Don Matthew when TSN panned on him for a couple of minutes when he was sitting down for what appeared to be a nap? At this stage in his life, I really don't know what he can do for this Montreal team, which is by far the worst in the league.

[paulwoods13]

Ricky is the highest-paid player in the league. It is reasonable to expect an above average level of play from him, injuries or no injuries.

Meezy is absolutely right when he said good teams can overcome injuries. This happens when the team's top veterans raise the level of their game a notch, find another gear, and lift up all the new guys around them.

It seems like Tom Brady loses half his receiving corps every year thru injuries, yet he always finds a way to make it work with new guys, because he raises his game.

Surely not even Meezy could argue that Ricky has raised the level of his game in the last 3 weeks.

What would raising his game look like? Somehow completing a pass to a guy who is not open or ran the wrong route? Forcing throws through the arms of defensive linemen who are mauling the o-line AND getting their arms in the lanes? Sprouting wings on his feet?

I would argue that by finding a way to win, avoiding mistakes and throwing two TD passes to a newbie, Ricky did in fact "raise his game" last night. It's amazing that what he does is never good enough for a few Argo fans. And I fear we are now into the second cycle of Cleo Lemon, i.e. him not being good enough is all we're gonna hear from one poster for the rest of the season.

[Will]

Ray did look off last night and this was the first time where I may have been inclined to not blame the receivers as much though it remains a factor. See a team may expect to have to replace 1 or 2 receivers along the way, but replacing 90÷ of it due to injury is not something I expect that teams think they'll have to do. I'm not ready to throw Ray under the bus yet because Alex Brink and Troy Smith looked horrible.

The Argos defense seems jekyll and hyde so far. In three games they've given up 38 points and in three other games given up 116.

Argos also played a pretty clean game while Montreal was quite undisciplined.

[Argocister]

For what its worth.... 2 cents....

Ray did pick it up last night as he was much more careful not to throw an interception, and guarded the ball much more closely. (except for that damn centre line trip)
I think his missed passes were more the receivers not being in the right spot. Adams missed a number .... and that was sad as I was hoping he would be able to raise the level of his game.
Slaton is a keeper, he runs strong and north south AND he guards the ball well.
I am worried now that Coombs is hurt... especially when you saw him in a sling at the end of the game. That was depressing.
I havent checked the stats but I think we kept the penalties down.
Having Bradwell as KR is an interesting option.... he does run north south though and seemed to make some yardage.


This game was perfectly placed for our team to try and get some chemistry. It looked like we were improving as the game went on .... not ready for the playoffs yet, but if we keep the upward trend we will make it. By then I hope everyone is healthy.... and our backups will have had some good experience under their belt. this game will help boost some confidence as well.

[Argo-Les]

I
posted In another thread I was Impressed with Slaton and now even moreso!
he imo was one of the few on offense tht gave 200% way too go Steve runnin back issue solved he s a good blocker too!
glad too see a win esp goin into bye bye week

[MEEZY]

Hold on a second, RR is a future hall of famer.
No question about it.
However, he is not having a good season or what some of us are expecting RR to be.
For me and there are others here also echoing the same thing.
Sure there are combination of reasons, but every team has to deal with injuries!
The QB is the face of the offense, you only have to look at the train wreck that is the Als.
The offense is only as good as their leader and especially in the CFL.
As for your other question, there are several and good for the league, young up and coming gunslingers.
Willy, Bo Levi, I like Reilly and there is Zach, any one of them I would take for the present and future.

First of all, I could debate that Ray's "not having a good season." Looking at the QB stats, Ray leads the league in passing, is tied for second for TD passes, and has the second-highest QB rating. In comparison to other QBs, Ray is having a decent season.

Let's compare Ray to the other QBs you would prefer:
1) Willy - Ray has a higher QB rating, more yards, more TD passes, the same number of picks, and a higher completion percentage.
2) Mitchell - Ray has more yards, a higher completion percentage, and the same number of TD passes
3) Reilly - Ray has more yards, a higher completion percentage, the same number of picks and a higher QB rating.
4) Collaros - Really? Collaros was brutal in his first few games with Hamilton and now he's on the shelf. Something that Ray was criticized for over the past two years. So youth does not necessarily equate to health nor does it equate to better stats. A better future, maybe.

The above analysis shows that Ray is better than or equal to the other QBs that you would prefer over him. So if he's having a lousy season as are all other CFL QBs, which perhaps constitutes a valid point.

Secondly, assuming that Ray IS having a bad season, its due to having to work with inexperienced receivers that are just learning the system. What we see as poorly-thrown balls may in fact be receivers missing routes. You don't see Ray struggle as much with Owens and Durie in the lineup. Or a undisputed #1 back for that matter.

You're absolutely right Tom, and Rich, that every team has to deal with injuries and that the good teams overcome those injuries. However, Ray is doing all that he can. He's stepping out of his comfort zone to run a lot more than a pocket-passer ordinarily would. He's sticking with his young receivers and being patient in their development by continually going back to them even when they drop the ball (i.e. Darvin Adams). And he doesn't throw his teammates under the bus as would other star players. He would rather take the blame on his shoulders, even if he doesn't deserve it, which prompts a whole flock Ray-haters to emerge from the woodwork. In a way, it may be better that Ray pulls a Jon Cornish or a Henry Burris and takes his teammates to task as a way of motivating them. But that's not his style. To me, all of this is evidence of leadership, to address Gill's previous comment that Ray was a poor leader.

What would raising his game look like? Somehow completing a pass to a guy who is not open or ran the wrong route? Forcing throws through the arms of defensive linemen who are mauling the o-line AND getting their arms in the lanes? Sprouting wings on his feet?

I would argue that by finding a way to win, avoiding mistakes and throwing two TD passes to a newbie, Ricky did in fact "raise his game" last night. It's amazing that what he does is never good enough for a few Argo fans. And I fear we are now into the second cycle of Cleo Lemon, i.e. him not being good enough is all we're gonna hear from one poster for the rest of the season.

Excellent post, Paul. It's actually a group of 3-4 posters, though

[Ron]

I'm not ready to throw Ray under the bus yet

Yet? Well when you do make sure Tom gives you the decoder ring for their group.

[argotom]

Excellent post, Paul. It's actually a group of 3-4 posters, though

What is a group of 3-4 mean?
This is a debate into the troubles the team has had and no one here has compared RR to Cleo Lemon, to suggest same or to bring up Lemon's name with RR in the same sentence is insanity.
More is expected of a QB with the credentials of RR likely the highest paid athlete in the league, after all the man has been voted by his peers as the best player in the league.
Like I said a sure future hall of famer.
When his play is sub par in comparison to other years like it has been this year, it has to be called out.
After all there is no such thing as an untouchable in sport.

[Ron]

When his play is sub par in comparison to other years like it has been this year, it has to be called out.
.

When your analysis is sub par in comparison to other years like it has been this year, it also has to be called out.

[Argo57]

What is a group of 3-4 mean?
This is a debate into the troubles the team has had and no one here has compared RR to Cleo Lemon, to suggest same or to bring up Lemon's name with RR in the same sentence is insanity.
More is expected of a QB with the credentials of RR likely the highest paid athlete in the league, after all the man has been voted by his peers as the best player in the league.
Like I said a sure future hall of famer.
When his play is sub par in comparison to other years like it has been this year, it has to be called out.
After all there is no such thing as an untouchable in sport.

If one or two receivers were out with injury you could maybe surmise that Ray has been a little off, but when the entire receiving corps is out and now the backups are nicked as well he gets a pass in my books. Let's also factor in the somewhat questionable O-Line play so far this season as well, actually feel bad for the guy!!!

[argotom]

When your analysis is sub par in comparison to other years like it has been this year, it also has to be called out.

That's absolutely ridiculous, others have also said the same thing.
I have never said Ricky is the only reason this team is losing, it's a collaborative effort with other parts and players of the team.
After all look at our record 2-4, which may have been worse had we played any other team yesterday.

If one or two receivers were out with injury you could maybe surmise that Ray has been a little off, but when the entire receiving corps is out and now the backups are nicked as well he gets a pass in my books. Let's also factor in the somewhat questionable O-Line play so far this season as well, actually feel bad for the guy!!!

I agree with you it's a total team effort.
However, the QB being such a pivotal roll on a football team this position is magnified much more so.

[paulwoods13]

More is expected of a QB with the credentials of RR likely the highest paid athlete in the league, after all the man has been voted by his peers as the best player in the league.

So what, exactly, could/should he be doing that would constitute "more"? How should he be playing differently?

[Argo]

Since this thread principally has evolved to discuss Ray's performance (including his performance relative to other QBs), I will add my 2 cents' worth: there's not terribly much wrong with Ray's performance thus far that cannot be explained by the absence of a bunch of starting receivers. When Ray is given quality to work with (e.g. Slaton), good things still happen.

Some comments on the abilities and play of other QBs have been absurd: stating, for example, that Reilly "can't throw"; that "Collaros was brutal in his first few games", etc. (IIRC Collaros - invariably running for his life - was knocked out of action playing in just his second game, playing behind an abysmal O line that allowed 10 sacks in game one and continued that fine play in game two. And the difficulties of the position that Collaros found himself in would have only been compounded in the case of an older pocket passer...)

[1argoholic]

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can't believe guys ripping Ray. This is Friggin so laughable. Is it Ray's fault that Barker hasn't found superstars to fill the roll of his injured superstars. You can't replace Owens and Durie. Now even a solid rookie who catching the ball amazingly is injured in Coombs.

When we get our injured guys back we'll be laughing in this really shit filled eastern division.

[argolio]

This is one funny thread.

[Rich]

What would raising his game look like? Somehow completing a pass to a guy who is not open or ran the wrong route? Forcing throws through the arms of defensive linemen who are mauling the o-line AND getting their arms in the lanes? Sprouting wings on his feet?

C'mon Paul. You said "Ricky is struggling right now. Obviously the plethora of new receivers is not helping but he seems a bit off"

You and I are seeing the same thing. I am saying the same thing, and so are several others. Taking into consideration that he's lost all his starting receivers, he still "seems a bit off".

The only point I'm trying to make is that this is the worst possible time for him to be "a bit off". When you have a lot of injuries you need your best guys to be at their very best.

So given all the injuries, Ricky raising his game = Ricky not looking a bit off anymore.

That's not too much to ask from the league's highest-paid player, and I think he knows it, and I fully expect him to play better going forward, because he's a consummate pro.

[paulwoods13]

C'mon Paul. You said "Ricky is struggling right now. Obviously the plethora of new receivers is not helping but he seems a bit off"

You and I are seeing the same thing. I am saying the same thing, and so are several others. Taking into consideration that he's lost all his starting receivers, he still "seems a bit off".

The only point I'm trying to make is that this is the worst possible time for him to be "a bit off". When you have a lot of injuries you need your best guys to be at their very best.

So given all the injuries, Ricky raising his game = Ricky not looking a bit off anymore.

That's not too much to ask from the league's highest-paid player, and I think he knows it, and I fully expect him to play better going forward, because he's a consummate pro.

I also said (to end that sentence) and I suspect he might be playing through some sort of injury.

Obviously I have no inside info but I still think that is possible. He has taken more hits than we'd like, and a few of them have been big ones.

But again, even if he was not off in the slightest, the likelihood of unfettered success is reduced significantly by the receiving corps he is working with. Adams is not Owens, Bradwell is not Durie, Fayson is not Barnes, Mann is not Chiles (altho even Chiles is not Chiles so far this season), Slaton/Johnson/Steele are not Kackert, and none of those guys is Inman. A great throw to a guy who drops it is still an incompletion. A well-designed play that is scuppered by a receiver running the wrong route is still a failure.

If Ray can't match Tom Brady's apparent ability to work with new receivers (some of whom inevitably seem to evolve into stars), I guess we will have to live with that. And again, it is beyond ridiculous to suggest that he has been "below average" this season. He has, however, been "below Ricky Ray 2013," which was one of the greatest levels we have ever seen.

[294life]

Congrats on the weekend toronto sweep guys. Now to see if at least 15,000 can show up on a tuesday night at Rogers. I hear Jarrod Johnson might be heading to the als.