Argos Popularity..

[Gill The Thrill]

No, I don't find that suspicious at all. The Esks hadn't won the Grey Cup since 2005 and had missed the playoffs in '06, '07, and '10. They did recover somewhat in 2011 but the Ray trade was not that shocking IMO. Tillman had reportedly tried to trade Ray to the Ticats a year earlier but could not reach an agreement with Hamilton. Tillman also had a history of trading away starting QBs in the past and taking his chances with backups whom he liked. Kerwin Bell threw for over 5000 yards for the Argos in '98 but Tillman traded him to Edmonton for freaking Jimmy Kemp prior to the '99 season. He traded Kerry Joseph coming off an MOP season as Tillman had confidence in Darian Durant and Steven Jyles. Tillman made that trade willingly and it just happened to blow up in his face. To suggest some conspiracy was thought up here is insulting to the Eskimos, the Argonauts, the Canadian Football League, Jim Barker and Eric Tillman. And given what a loudmouth Tillman is, do you really think that he would have kept quiet all this time about such a conspiracy considering that this trade cost him his job? Really, Gill?

I did not use the word conspiracy, but the word encouraged was used in this thread as a way for the league to promote the Argos, and that's insulting to the CFL and all it's fans. What is this wrestling? It's supposed to be a competitive football league. As far as insulting Barker, this is the clown who was promoting Cleo Lemon as if he was Doug Flutie. Speaking of Flutie, Ravi, you remember how the Argos got him right?..the league helped orchestrate the deal. Then you wonder why I use suspicious to describe the Ray deal? The precedent was already there.

[paulwoods13]

As far as insulting Barker, this is the clown who was promoting Cleo Lemon as if he was Doug Flutie.

You do yourself no favours with outlandish exaggerations like that.

[Gill The Thrill]

You do yourself no favours with outlandish exaggerations like that.

Favours for who??? You? I'm not a cheerleader for the team, yes I'm a fan, but I call it the way I see it and don't lose my objectivity like many who post on here do.

Why would calling Barker a clown not be justified? He leaked Lemon's signing before it was finalized to hype him and then preceded to keep him as a starter when everyone watching the CFL could see he was not up to the task. Now that's outlandish....notice no other team went near him after his release.

[ArgoRavi]

Ravi, that is an understatement....I became an Argo fan in 1980...oh to recapture the indepth media coverage we enjoyed back then...now I find it difficult finding out who is in the starting lineup.

This is soooo true. When I surf around and look at media coverage in many other cities, including QC for the Rouge et Or , the media coverage is extensive, more details about the team and the players.
Hodge mentioned in one of his discussions about the Argos, that the fans need to care about the team. Providing your fans with more details than the stadium or owner drama would do this. Learning more about the team , the players, the coaches, helps provide the interest in the team.
It is not only a characteristic of the TO area ...... In relation to CIS teams it can be the same . .... Just depends on what is available locally and now ( at least this helps) on the web.

Here is one additional example from 1979 of the high level of analysis of the team:

By MARTY YORK Globe and Mail Reporter GUELPH - The 1979 Toronto Argonauts - with new ownership, new management, new coaches and a new playbook - are heading into the Canadian Football League season with a lot of familiar faces in their lineup.
Wednesday, June 13, 1979
Marty York
Guelph ON -- Although they call themselves the New Argos and have been functioning on a rejuvenation theme since training camp opened nearly three weeks ago, most of the players who make up this season's team were part of dismal Argonaut squads in previous seasons.

However, as the Argos smashed one another about for the final time in training camp yesterday - they knock heads tonight with the Tiger-Cats in Hamilton in the first exhibition game for both teams - some interesting factors were evident.
First, there is team unity, an ingredient said to be absent on previous Argo teams. Uncharacteristic of most CFL teams, imports and non-imports mingle regularly.
Second, there is discipline, and head coach Forrest Gregg's strictness is appreciated by the players. Linebacker Gord Knowlton, for example, said he feels like a professional for the first time in his six CFL seasons.
But can the Argos win with players who have failed in the past? Gregg thinks so. The coach believes that his predecessors had the talent, but misused it.
A case in point is Greg Fairchild, an import guard. Last season, as an Argo, Fairchild shifted between guard and tackle, but Gregg maintains that Fairchild is a competent guard who needs to have stability in his position.
Another player the Argos had last season was Doug Redl, a non-import who sat on the bench most of the time.
Gregg, however, has already inserted Redl into the first-string centre position.
Doug is a excellent athlete and I think he's going to be a great centre, said Gregg, adding that he is willing to be patient as Redl learns his new position.
Returning to the tight end spot is veteran Argo Peter Muller, who is hungry for victory this season. He has gone seven seasons without it.
Secure as a wide receiver is incumbent Dwight Edwards, a speedy non-import from Mississauga.
Slade Willis, a non-import with good hands, should retain the flanker's job. But the four Argo exhibition games will be important to Willis because receiver Peter Gabriel, who has tried out unsuccessfully with earlier Argo teams, has improved significantly.
Terry Metcalf returns to halfback and Michael Harris probably will retain the slotback job. Rookie Ken Harris (no relation) will need to play extremely well to oust Michael, beginning with a solid performance tonight.
There probably will be only two new faces in the first-string offensive unit - fullback Brian Duncan and quarterback Tony Adams.
The pressure on Adams will be enormous. As former Argo quarterbacks Chuck Ealey, Alvin White and Rodney Allison learned last season, Toronto football fans tend to blame the signal-callers when times are tough. And times have been tough for the Argos since 1952, the last time they won the Grey Cup.
Duncan, a veteran National Football Leaguer, has exceptional hands and might complement Metcalf with much-needed blocking.
A third new face on the first-string offence might be tackle Kevin Powell, the club's first selection in the 1979 college draft, but he is competing against Argo returnee Bill Norton.
Either Mike Obrovac or Tom Davis, both imports who have worn the Double Blue in the past, will be the other guard.
Veteran Argo Nick Bastaja captured the other tackle job even before training camp opened.
The defensive line is likely to be Canadians Jim Corrigall and Wayne Smith at the ends and imports Bruce Smith and Ecomet Burley at tackle. All have been Argos for some time and all have sustained injuries at various times.
Corrigall (slight ankle injury) and Wayne Smith (knee cartilage) are sidelined again and Gregg must use four import defensive linemen for tonight's game. Wayne Smith will be out for the exhibition schedule but Gregg is aware of his ability.
Newcomer Bob Senser, a 6-foot, 8-inch import defensive lineman, impresses Gregg with his size and mobility, but it will be difficult for him to beat out one of the incumbents.
The linebacking and defensive secondary are the two major areas of uncertainty.
Imports Tom Poe and Rick Razzano, who were platooned at middle linebacker last season, are engaged in the toughest battle on the Argos.
Knowlton, returnee Rick Sowieta or newcomer Ron Southwick, all non-imports, will obtain one of the outside linebacking positions. Two of the three probably will gain employment; one will be a reserve.
Import Richard Lewis, the best linebacker on the squad, will get the other outside position.
This leaves the defensive backfield, where at least one new face is required because of the holdout of all-star cornerback Eric Harris, who was working out alone at his Memphis home yesterday.
Harris may return to the team before the start of the regular season, but would play out his option because of what he terms a lack of consideration by the Toronto organization. Harris wants to collect $50,000 he says the club owes him in a bonus. The Argos say they do not owe him the bonus.
Because of the gaping hole Harris has created, a new face will accompany incumbent Jim Marshall at the cornerback spots. Still bidding for one cornerback job are Jack Williams, Mike Williams (no relation) and Al Chester. Chester might be the favorite because his versatility allows him to play quarterback as well.
Marshall, incidentally, is still a long way from a contract settlement with the Argos. He is in his option year.
Import Billy Hardee probably will be back this year as a safety unless Jack Williams is shifted back, while hard-hitting import Mike Kramer should grasp the other safety spot.
Reliable non-import Paul Bennett again will be the rover and probably will return punts for another season.
Ian Sunter is trying his foot at punting again. Newcomer Dave Pegg is trying to take the punter job but Sunter has secured the place-kicking position and Gregg might not want to use two men for the jobs. Sunter was criticized for his work in both kicking categories last season, but is trying to redeem himself.
The recruits of new general manager Tom Hudspeth and coach Gregg have not been particularly impressive.
Of their eight cuts so far, seven were their own signings - all but guard Bill Ellenbogen.
Gregg will take 65 players to Hamilton tonight. The team will return to Guelph after the game and disperse tomorrow.
Gregg insists that he is out to win in his debut tonight. We'll evaluate personnel, but we want to win.
Hamilton, of course, is determined to do the same. The Ticats have improved on paper this season, with additions such as rookie quarterbacks Ed Smith and David Marler, linemen Ed George and receiver Waddell Smith. However, general manager Bob Shaw remains cautious, maintaining that he needs to see the players in action before declaring that his team has improved.
____________________________________

I have looked at articles during the season from this time and the writer - Jeffrey Goodman appeared to be the beat reporter for the Argos from the Globe and Mail through the '78 season before Marty York took over the next year - would provide great detail about the roster moves the Argos were making that week. Basically, the Argos received the kind of coverage - in quality and quantity - that the Leafs always have received. I think that we started to see a noticeable drop-off in this kind of coverage in the 1990s and it reached a new low in the 2000s, from which it has never recovered.

[Argocister]

If the coverage the
Argos received were similar to that the CFL receives in Regina, or the CIS receives in Quebec City, whether it be in the print media or on their website, the fans will become more engaged.
I know when I give some tickets to my friends, they want me to be there so I can give them some interesting tidbits on the players. The info is out there obviously, as I have searched some of it out usually on the web in various places, but it isn't readily available or easily accessed.
Maybe it's due to the changes in where people get their information ( print vs web) maybe due to the media only producing articles on big ticket items as TO media has a very large and broad based population ........ Or American influence ..... especially for advertising .... Maybe the rogers/Bell competition.... Perhaps the traditional "Canadian products not being good enough " scene.

[paulwoods13]

Favours for who???

Favours for yourself. You make what might be a decent argument, and then completely undercut with a ridiculously untrue statement. Hard to take everything you say seriously when I see something like that. If you can pinpoint one example of Barker "promoting Cleo Lemon as if he was Doug Flutie," I'd love to see it.

[Invader]

Favours for yourself. You make what might be a decent argument, and then completely undercut with a ridiculously untrue statement. Hard to take everything you say seriously when I see something like that. If you can pinpoint one example of Barker "promoting Cleo Lemon as if he was Doug Flutie," I'd love to see it.

I distinctly remember Barker saying in 2010 training camp that Cleo Lemon reminded him of Henry Burris (whom Barker was associated with in Calgary). Those two QB's do have many similarities, but with Doug Flutie...not so much.

With regards to Ricky Ray, he did struggle somewhat his last few seasons in Edm, having his salary reduced by $80k, then was almost traded to Hamilton in 2011, then eventually ended up with the Argos. I highly doubt there was any conspiracy or league interference in the trade. Barker outlined the sequence of events, which were masterful on his part, to facilitate the trade. Steven Jyles had just signed a $250k contract with half his salary already paid by the Argos with a signing bonus. Jyles was fairly highly regarded at the time (and had a history with Tillman). I'll bet the Esk GM would still maintain it was a good trade. It worked out great for Toronto, but for Edmonton...not so much...that's why that GM is still looking for another job.

[Argo57]

And now we have Frankie Ziccarelli, my how times have changed.
Love York or hate him at least he put some thought and research into his article.
Looking back in hindsight his observations regarding Bass and Greer are somewhat ironic as both became dominant stars.

[paulwoods13]

Looking back in hindsight his observations regarding Bass and Greer are somewhat ironic as both became dominant stars.

But his analysis of those two at the time was entirely reasonable. Bass struggled as a rookie, and Greer largely failed to distinguish himself except on one end-around for a TD (which IIRC was after Marty's mid-season report). To be fair, he wasn't thrown to much. So "promising but unproven" seems about right.

[Argo57]

But his analysis of those two at the time was entirely reasonable. Bass struggled as a rookie, and Greer largely failed to distinguish himself except on one end-around for a TD (which IIRC was after Marty's mid-season report). To be fair, he wasn't thrown to much. So "promising but unproven" seems about right.

Not saying he was wrong with his observations, sometimes you do not in fact know what you have with young players.

[argolio]

I'd also like to see evidence of Barker comparing Lemon to Flutie in 2010.

I recall Gibran Hamdan getting more pre-camp hype than Lemon.

[Gill The Thrill]

Once again people choose to misinterpret posts by inserting words that were not used like "conspiracy" and "comparison".

I used neither of these words... Hey Paul, use your pseudo law degree (tongue firmly planted in cheek) to show me "evidence" of me quoting Barker "comparing" Lemon to Flutie...I just said he hyped him up like Flutie because he reported his signing before it was finalized, making it seem as if teams were bidding for the guys services at QB.

What was there to hype??...the guy had never been on a winning team going back to high school ball and was already 30 yrs old. That's my opinion.

This asking for "evidence" (because you may disagree with an opinion) as if your word is holier than thou is a little bit much on a fan message board and I notice you've done it to certain other posters as well. You can disagree, but say you disagree, don't be condescending (imo) and ask for evidence like we're under oath in a court of law. This isn't geopolitics we're talking about, but football...every word on every post should not be taken so literally. Surely you'd have enough tact to understand that, bud.

PS- nice book by the way, I enjoyed reading it very much after buying it from you during the Stamps game last August celebrating the '83 Cup win. I forgot how much I followed that disappointing 1981 team but was reminded with your book. It was the first year I started following the Argos and the CFL.

[Wobbler]

I used neither of these words... Hey Paul, use your pseudo law degree (tongue firmly planted in cheek) to show me "evidence" of me quoting Barker "comparing" Lemon to Flutie...I just said he hyped him up like Flutie because he reported his signing before it was finalized, making it seem as if teams were bidding for the guys services at QB.

Please don't be ridiculous. "...promoting Cleo Lemon as if he was Doug Flutie" was hyperbolic and Paul did you a favour by pointing that out. Such statements undermine your other (*possibly* valid) points.

[Ron]

Tilman also traded Joseph away right after he wins the MOP. So the Ray trade was no surprise to anyone who followed Tilman's career.

[paulwoods13]

Gill, you wrote: "As far as insulting Barker, this is the clown who was promoting Cleo Lemon as if he was Doug Flutie." End of statement. How were we all supposed to know that you meant "because he reported his signing before it was finalized, making it seem as if teams were bidding for the guys services at QB"? I may be a lawyer (not) but I am definitely not a mind reader. And "as if" specifically connotes comparison, so to suggest people are misinterpreting based on "words that were not used like 'conspiracy' and 'comparison'" is, IMO, a stretch.

I'm not going to apologize for asking people to back up statements passed off as "fact" when I've seen no evidence to support them. That may be a function of my background in journalism, where verification is required ("If your mother says she loves you, check it out"). It's also, IMO, good practice for everyone who participates in online discussions because we are in a culture of anonymous pontification and exaggeration. And of course everyone (including those I ask for evidence) is free to ignore such requests.

Thanks for the kind words about the book -- I appreciate it.

[1argoholic]

Just please don't talk about Bishop!! haha. Cleo and Bishop were both Lemons in my book.

[hugoagogo]

Tilman also traded Joseph away right after he wins the MOP. So the Ray trade was no surprise to anyone who followed Tilman's career.

Yup. The Ray trade was all about Tillman's and his stubborn, ego-inflated past history; build a cup winner with his guys. Ray had agreed to a salary cut the year before to stay an Eskimo and help free up cash to add some much needed support to the offense. Signing Chris Bauman to 125k was certainly not money well spent.

[Will]

I'd also like to see evidence of Barker comparing Lemon to Flutie in 2010.

I recall Gibran Hamdan getting more pre-camp hype than Lemon.

I, too, remember it being Hamdan who was getting the accolades.

[paulwoods13]

I had forgotten all about Hamdan, but heading into camp that year I figured he was the leading candidate. Wonder how differently things would have turned out had he not decided to retire.

[argolio]

Remember when Barker was promoting Hamdan as if he was Warren Moon? No? Well he did. Because I sald so!