November 2, 2014: Toronto Argonauts vs. Montreal Alouettes

[argotom]

I still disagree on the fact of throwing into tight coverage, as the risk is greater (ie. an INT) than a potential reward (pass interference or great catch, especially the latter given our quality of receivers). I do see the benefit in drawing an interference penalty and keeping the defense honest, provided there's minimal risk of a pick. However, as I stated ad nauseum, this is on THE PLAY CALLING and not Ray himself. I'm not sure you actually read my arguments.

I do agree that Ray is, to some extent, one-dimensional in terms of his drop-back passing style. I do wish he would run more as well, but that's not his forte, just like Mike Reilly's forte is not throwing intermediate to deep routes. They are completely opposite types of QBs but both have merit in their own ways. BTW, Ray is also in discussion for the MOP award. Although I doubt he gets it, he is still one of the names being bandied about, which shows his value to the team.

There is a reason that Eric Tillman traded Ray. Tillman is an egotistical idiot. And, if you agree with him....well....I don't like hurling personal insults, but since you gave me a psychiatric evaluation of your own....

I believe that you dislike ("hate" is too harsh perhaps) Ray because the vast majority of your posts are about HIM. Whenever you assign blame for Argo losses, Ray's name is nearly always the first one mentioned. I hardly ever hear you critique any other players; in your opinion, it's always Ray's fault. And you never give him credit for wins I'm sure many other posters on here will concur with my assessment.

You obviously never played the position or coached in some capacity where an analytic evaluation is required.
The QB position unlike any other perhaps in sport is the single most important position in a team sport.
A QB is sometime give too much credit for a win or too much blame for a loss?
Ricky is 35 years old, per your own evaluation is a one dimensional QB.
Today the coach failed him again while his execution did not assist.

[paulwoods13]

I was wondering before this game why Milanovich was screwing around with an O-Line that had seemed (I gather) to play rather effectively the previous game. Not only wondering but opining that such change wouldn't end well, and indeed, it didn't.

VZ had a bad game (as did most of his colleagues on the o-line), but he has been consistently better than King this season, and he is a NAT starter. Had the Argos dressed and started King, some other INT starter would have had to sit. It couldn't be a receiver like Mann because the Argos were already starting both of their experienced NAT receivers. It couldn't be a d-lineman because the Argos have only one healthy NAT d-lineman -- he's not really starting-calibre and if he did start and got hurt, it would ripple throughout the lineup. It would have had to be an LB (Jones or Ware) because that is the only position where we are deep enough to start a backup NAT. Jones has had a solid year and Ware has also played well, but arguably we could have sat one for Yurichuk without too great a dropoff. But even then, would we really play King over VZ? I doubt it. Maybe play King over Smith but that would mean screwing around with the o-line (your original point), and I don't know that Smith is our worst o-lineman at the moment.

[ArgoRavi]

Add to the fact teams know how to defend this offensive system which is plain to everyone (except the Argonaut coaching staff it seems) who cant or won't adapt or change and here we are.

Do they though? Montreal seems to have the key to defending this offence but I haven't seen evidence of that with the other defences in the league. Recently alone, the Argos have exploited B.C.'s, Hamilton's (twice) and Edmonton's defences.

The issues with the Als remind me of 1990 when the Argos put up a record number of points offensively and went 11-4 (including playoffs) against every team not named "Winnipeg". Against the Bombers, the Argos, including playoffs, went 0-5 and could not seem to find an answer against their championship calibre defence, even with the legendary Don Matthews coaching the team and Adam Rita as offensive coordinator.

In fairness, the Als' defence has shut down most of the offences in the league including Calgary's vaunted one recently. Obviously, if the Argos are fortunate enough to get another chance at the Als, they have to figure this out to have any chance but the reality is that this Montreal defence may be the most dominant the league has seen since Rich Stubler's Argo defence in '07. Remember though that the '07 Argo defence had a bit of an off-day in the East Final and, more importantly, the '07 Toronto offence, which was similar to Montreal's this year in several ways, staggered badly in that EF game. Hopefully the Als still have one more dominant performance in them next week in Hamilton.

[gilthethrill]

I had to shake my head when Marcus Thomas left the game early never to return...I just can't get my head around losing to a team that employs an inexperienced and under qualified Ryan Dinwiddle as OC with a fairly recently acquired Johnathan Crompton at QB...that fluke show should have ended to today but the Argos did not take advantage and seemed tentative on both sides of the ball. Sad to say, the Double Blue deserve an early off season.

[argotom]

I had to shake my head when Marcus Thomas left the game early never to return...I just can't get my head around losing to a team that employs an inexperienced and under qualified Ryan Dinwiddle as OC with a fairly recently acquired Johnathan Crompton at QB...that fluke show should have ended to today but the Argos did not take advantage and seemed tentative on both sides of the ball. Sad to say, the Double Blue deserve an early off season.

You know sometimes it's about new ideas, refreshing point of view outside the box somewhat.
Don't tell Crompton he is inexperienced as his actions speak volumes.

[294life]

In fairness, the Als' defence has shut down most of the offences in the league including Calgary's vaunted one recently. Obviously, if the Argos are fortunate enough to get another chance at the Als, they have to figure this out to have any chance but the reality is that this Montreal defence may be the most dominant the league has seen since Rich Stubler's Argo defence in '07. Remember though that the '07 Argo defence had a bit of an off-day in the East Final and, more importantly, the '07 Toronto offence, which was similar to Montreal's this year in several ways, staggered badly in that EF game.

19 points was considered an off-day because they would usually not even give up so many. I agree with the '07 comparison all the more because I doubt the Als will make it to the final.

[Argocister]

?...........I just can't get my head around losing to a team that employs an inexperienced and under qualified Ryan Dinwiddle as OC with a fairly recently acquired Johnathan Crompton at QB...that fluke show should have ended to today but the Argos did not take advantage and seemed tentative on both sides of the ball. Sad to say, the Double Blue deserve an early off season.

Mmmmm.... Would Jeff Garcia have something to do with it?

[Argo]

just like Mike Reilly's forte is not throwing intermediate to deep routes.

Reilly has thrown deep successfully and spectacularly, to Bowman in particular. (Stamps had his first catch in several games today?!)

[ArgoRavi]

Mmmmm.... Would Jeff Garcia have something to do with it?

I suspect that Garcia has a lot to do with it. He may be a good offensive coordinator candidate in the league for next season.

[Wobbler]

So... losing Ray and a key game are probably the two worst things that could happen today. We also had a number of dismal individual performances today that I won't dwell on. However...

Positives:

- I'm really starting to appreciate Gabriel. He's an iffy blitzer IMHO, but quick in his decision making and a big hitter - just what you want to see in a safety.
- Special teams: Waters punted and kicked well, we covered punts really well, we returned pretty well, and didn't take any penalties (or yield turnovers).
- Our DEs had a good day. We didn't record any sacks, but there were a few hurries and both Okpalaugo and Whiteside recorded solid tackle counts.

[Blue90]

Let's face it, this a bad, bad football team. From the Head Coach down, it is a poorly coached, undisciplined bunch of dumb players.
1. no backup QB ready to jump in, it was only a matter of time before RR got injured
2. 2nd down and 5 twice, we throw 3 yard passes to Owens to end up short both times
3. on the goalline, we call a passing play by the backup QB, by pure luck it works!
4. we gamble on 3rd down and 10, with almost 2 minutes to play with a backup QB who has hardly thrown a pass all year
5. the defence allows more points than the offence scores
6. the mistakes and poor play selection just continue every week

Next year start fresh with a new coach, and hopefully a new younger QB (maybe we should have kept Collaros!)

[D-Gap-Willie]

Milanovitch finally said the words in the past 2 weeks when he stated "we are not a good football team". Up until that time, the Argos have been in denial that there were any problems other than a rash of injuries, some lack of discipline and the need to rebuild the defence. Denial of problems by the coaches and GM can only lead one way and that is downward.

In contrast, the Alouettes, frankly admitted their problems and feverishly set to work to fix them. Weaknesses were identified and worked on with a sense of urgency. Smith's role was eliminated and the offence was heavily retooled to the realities of the personnel that they have. Humbly, the Als went hat in hand looking for help from Marv Levy, Jeff Garcia and several others along the way. Now they are reaping the fruits of their labors with a solid defence and an offence that employs the strengths that they have, and attacks opponents weaknesses ( it's called a game plan). They have also shown considerable in-game adaptability along with a reasonable element of trick/deception plays.

Frankly the score greatly flattered the Argos. They had no answers to stopping Sutton or Carter, and showed no inclination or urgency to adjust. If JC's long pass to Carter along with Green's pass to Carter had succeeded, the score would have been more indicative of play. On the offence, it has once again been proven that the 2012 offence needs to be changed - we don't have Kak, Inman or Durie - you can't rely on short dinks and then substantial YAC every play, when the defence knows it's coming. There is simply no fresh thinking, no adaptability ( either to opponents or personnel available) and zero imagination. The attitude reminds me of Barker sticking with Cleo Lemon, insisting that he was "the man".

Well it wasn't an entirely wasted trip to Montreal - we enjoyed some wonderful food - and will still attend the Ottawa game next week, before heading home. Unfortunately, I expect the Redblacks defence to also handle the Argo offence whether Ricky Ray or his clone Harris plays.

[Double Dare]

I still disagree on the fact of throwing into tight coverage, as the risk is greater (ie. an INT) than a potential reward (pass interference or great catch, especially the latter given our quality of receivers). I do see the benefit in drawing an interference penalty and keeping the defense honest, provided there's minimal risk of a pick.

No risk .... no reward. Toronto was not as fired-up as Montreal .... you could see it. I think Toronto was hypnotized by the pattern of hand-off, short pass, dump-off, hand-off, short pass, dump-off, hand-off, short pass, dump-off , ad-nauseaum. Montreal played with way more confidence ... they should have had 2 more TDs.

[Will]

Do they though? Montreal seems to have the key to defending this offence but I haven't seen evidence of that with the other defences in the league. Recently alone, the Argos have exploited B.C.'s, Hamilton's (twice) and Edmonton's defences.

The issues with the Als remind me of 1990 when the Argos put up a record number of points offensively and went 11-4 (including playoffs) against every team not named "Winnipeg". Against the Bombers, the Argos, including playoffs, went 0-5 and could not seem to find an answer against their championship calibre defence, even with the legendary Don Matthews coaching the team and Adam Rita as offensive coordinator.

In fairness, the Als' defence has shut down most of the offences in the league including Calgary's vaunted one recently. Obviously, if the Argos are fortunate enough to get another chance at the Als, they have to figure this out to have any chance but the reality is that this Montreal defence may be the most dominant the league has seen since Rich Stubler's Argo defence in '07. Remember though that the '07 Argo defence had a bit of an off-day in the East Final and, more importantly, the '07 Toronto offence, which was similar to Montreal's this year in several ways, staggered badly in that EF game. Hopefully the Als still have one more dominant performance in them next week in Hamilton.

The Alouettes know how to defend this offensive system and to put it simply it is based on having speedy guys who can close in on the ball carrier without missing. The comparison between the 2014 Montreal Alouettes and the 1990 Winnipeg Blue Bombers is an interesting one as I'd agree that they have a competent enough QB a la Tom Burgess, but the strength of that team really lies on the other side of the ball. However, I can't really compare this edition of the Argos to the 1990 squad. That team struggled at the start of the year, but by the end of the year was destroying any team not named Winnipeg rather decisively.

[argotom]

Let's face it, this a bad, bad football team. From the Head Coach down, it is a poorly coached, undisciplined bunch of dumb players.
1. no backup QB ready to jump in, it was only a matter of time before RR got injured
2. 2nd down and 5 twice, we throw 3 yard passes to Owens to end up short both times
3. on the goalline, we call a passing play by the backup QB, by pure luck it works!
4. we gamble on 3rd down and 10, with almost 2 minutes to play with a backup QB who has hardly thrown a pass all year
5. the defence allows more points than the offence scores
6. the mistakes and poor play selection just continue every week

Next year start fresh with a new coach, and hopefully a new younger QB (maybe we should have kept Collaros!)

It's too bad isn't it, that ship has needlessly sailed.

[AngeloV]

I had to shake my head when Marcus Thomas left the game early never to return...I just can't get my head around losing to a team that employs an inexperienced and under qualified Ryan Dinwiddle as OC with a fairly recently acquired Johnathan Crompton at QB...that fluke show should have ended to today but the Argos did not take advantage and seemed tentative on both sides of the ball. Sad to say, the Double Blue deserve an early off season.

I think more than anything bringing in Garcia and Schoenert have had a bigger effect on Montreal's improvement than anything else. Just sitting in team meatings and going over game film with 2 guys like that will make Dinwiddie a better OC.

VZ had a bad game (as did most of his colleagues on the o-line)

The biggest off season loss for the Argos IMO was Stephen McAdoo. Just look at how the Argos o-line has regressed this year and Edmonton's has improved. I don't think that is coincidence.

No risk .... no reward. Toronto was not as fired-up as Montreal .... you could see it. I think Toronto was hypnotized by the pattern of hand-off, short pass, dump-off, hand-off, short pass, dump-off, hand-off, short pass, dump-off , ad-nauseaum. Montreal played with way more confidence ... they should have had 2 more TDs.

Montreal also had more time to throw down field. Fact is, the Argos only seem to get pressure when they blitz. That mean 1 on 1 coverage throught the secondary. Montreal was getting through with a 4 man rush. That means trying to find one of 5 receivers against 8 guys in coverage while being pressured due to lack of pass protection.

[1argoholic]

I've said it from day one this year. You can't keep having massive changes in players every year and expect to thrive. Not to mention in coaches and injuries. Then we shuffled guys in and out all season suck as Anderson. Have we had the same lineup once this year?

If we can somehow keep this D together with only a tweak here and there we should be able to actually grow as a team. We obviously need to settle the ownership issue which has hung like a dark cloud all year.Will players even want to come to Toronto? Hard to judge a teams talent when most of the D has been learning on the fly. Injuries have torn the team apart this year. It's very obvious that we need a new return specialist. Our return game has been horrible and we can't keep beating that crap out of Owens.

Who knows what's up for next year with the mess the organization is in?

[Argocister]

Of course the optimist here .... but also the realist ....

I'm okay with Milanovich .... we had a carousel of coaching changes to start this year .... and for the team that hurts more than changes in player personel if you ask me .
The special teams group has improved through the season .... but it did take 15-16 games to get there .Please keep Swayze, as I think he has saved the team many a time including at times in this game .
So maybe we keep the special teams coach. ..... the ALs have kept their DC coach and many of the defense player personnel for a couple years .... and you can see how that group carries their team. We are missing that on the D. ... but is Burke the answer.

We do miss McAdoo .... we can't get him back though.

This year was a turnstyle in players not only in trying to improve but also due to injuries. So if you are trying to follow a path but keep getting shoved off or turned around, you can't seem to make up ground.... especially when there isn't any 'veteran" that knows the system .... because its new and they don't.

Milanovich is a new HC .... hopefully he has learned from this year. I don't think you get rid of him now, otherwise we will have another carosel of new coaches and probably players. The group we have have shown signs of progress and ability. I think we make a bunch of minor changes.

[paulwoods13]

Even if we get shredded by Ottawa, I will not support a change at the head coaching position. You don't move forward by bringing in a new boss and new approach every three years. Some head coaches (like Andrus) don't deserve a lot of rope, but a coach who led the team to a Grey Cup in Year 1 and a first-place finish in Year 2 (despite being without his QB for almost half of that season) should not be fired after failing in a season when he was saddled with half a dozen key long-term injuries (a couple of them to guys who were virtually irreplaceable) and the loss of two stars to the NFL, and was required to replace his defensive and special teams coordinators and offensive line coach.

[Rich]

It's like the team has taken his lame lackadaisical persona and adapted it to their on field performance. In other words sleep walking.

This bothers me more than the vanilla play calling. The Argos looked flat yesterday. Trudging to the sidelines after another 2 and out. How is this possible? How can it be that they weren't fired up and bloodthirsty for this game? Is it the coach's fault, or just a bunch of players who don't give a shit?