November 2, 2014: Toronto Argonauts vs. Montreal Alouettes

[ArgoRavi]

I will take up your challenge.

First, the conservative play calling is NOT on Ray. It's on the COACH, who designs the plays. Ray only executes the plays that are called for him.

Secondly, in many cases, you have to take what the defense gives you. The Montreal defense doesn't give up the opportunity for the deep ball. Ray CAN throw the deep ball with success, but he has to 1) execute the designed plays and 2) go with what the defense gives him. Even if the play calls for a deep ball and the receivers are completely covered downfield, he has to go with his safe routes. Would you rather have him throw into tight coverage and risk an INT? Then you'd be blaming him for that too.

I agree that I'd like to see more vertical routes, but I've just explained why they haven't been utilized in the last two games against MTL.

You make too much sense, Meezy! It isn't like the Argos don't want to be hitting 20 and 30 yard plays but the Montreal defence is getting paid to play too and they are simply being dominant right now. It has helped that they have had many of the same players and the same defensive coordinator for the last two years which speaks to the value of continuity.

[1argoholic]

Ray's head bounced off the turf real good after having his left toe was stepped on by Slaton and then by Van Zehl as he lay on the ground. Van Zehl stepped on Ray's foot on the previous play as well. Van Zehl also tackled Slaton in the forth. He had a shite game.

[argosrule2415]

What a disappointing game. With the Als clinching a playoff spot, I assume they'll rest most of there starters next week against the Ti-Cats which doesn't bode well for our "playoff chances". I still think we can beat the RedBlacks even if Ray isn't our starting QB.

[paulwoods13]

What a disappointing game. With the Als clinching a playoff spot, I assume they'll rest most of there starters next week against the Ti-Cats which doesn't bode well for our "playoff chances".

Why would the Als rest players and risk losing home-field advantage and a bye to the EF? That will not happen, period.

[Argo57]

Based on how they have been playing for most of the season, the Argos do not deserve to be in the playoffs. We may miraculously get in but if we do I have no confidence we will be a serious threat to win two playoff games. Some of it is injuries to key players (which have really disrupted us all year long), some of it is poor recruiting, and some of it is poor scheming. Our defence is not even close to being championship-calibre; Montreal's is, tho.

The only potential saving grace out of all this is that Mtl will be highly motivated to take first place by beating Hamilton next week, and to maintain this roll they are on. However, even a loss to Ham by seven points or less will give them first place so we certainly cannot count on a Mtl win. Nor can we count on beating Ottawa; today we looked lost on both sides of the ball, and Ott has been close to wins the past few weeks.

It had little or nothing to do with the outcome today, but why was I not surprised that Marcus Thomas went out of the game with an early injury? That makes it three-for-three for him this season. I wager he has played fewer than 20 snaps total.

Pretty accurate summary Paul. The talent level and team chemistry has been steadily on the decline since the championship year some due to injury, personnel decisions, recruiting and changes to the staff. Add to the fact teams know how to defend this offensive system which is plain to everyone (except the Argonaut coaching staff it seems) who cant or won't adapt or change and here we are.
Guess what, the Argos are no lock to win against Ottawa, who will be playing loose and carefree, we also may get a chance to see what we have behind Ray as well this week, hopefully Gale gets a lot of work (if Ray can't go) as I think he may ultimately be the better long term prospect rather than Harris.
Perhaps Marcus Thomas isn't physically fit enough for our game, wasted roster spot IMO if he continues to get hurt.
The championship glow of 2012 has long worn off for this organization, some tough questions will need to be answered moving forward!!

[Bleeds Double Blue]

There was a quick shot of Ricky Ray sitting on the bench after he bounced his noggin off the turf and he looked pretty zoned out. You could almost see the cartoon birds circling around his head like Wiley Coyote after being flattened by a boulder. It's sad to say but right now this team just isn't good enough.

[Bleeds Double Blue]

I guess I will be cheering for Hamilton to get pounded next week. Oh wait, I would be doing that anyway.

[Argo57]

You make too much sense, Meezy! It isn't like the Argos don't want to be hitting 20 and 30 yard plays but the Montreal defence is getting paid to play too and they are simply being dominant right now. It has helped that they have had many of the same players and the same defensive coordinator for the last two years which speaks to the value of continuity.

Your response (although reasonable) is a resounding indictment of both the Argo talent level and or offensive scheme.
"Gee whiz everyone we realty want to throw those 20-30 yard passes but can't against these guys".....wonderful!!

[argonaut11xx]

Say what you like,

The Argo's got beaten by a BETTER team today...thats all

[johnnyice]

Why would the Als rest players and risk losing home-field advantage and a bye to the EF? That will not happen, period.

I concur ; the good ship ARGO is taking on water but not listing yet......

[argosrule2415]

Why would the Als rest players and risk losing home-field advantage and a bye to the EF? That will not happen, period.

Oh right!!! My apologies, I had forgotten that first place in the east was still up in the air. Hope the Als can pull through next week...but we got to take care of our own business against the RedBlacks first.

[Antwon]

I'm so sick of the conservative play calling! How many check down throws do you think you can make in a critical game. Or throws that are not even close to the first down line! Our defense is weaker then both Montreal and Hamilton, so you have to be more aggressive. This loss is on the coaching staff playing scared! If they play safe because they don't think they have deeper threat receivers then Barker is failing in player recruitment. We don't deserve to make the playoffs. Montreal won because of strong defense and aggressive playcalling when they needed it.

[Argo]

Ray's head bounced off the turf real good after having his left toe was stepped on by Slaton and then by Van Zehl as he lay on the ground. Van Zehl stepped on Ray's foot on the previous play as well. Van Zehl also tackled Slaton in the forth. He had a shite game.

You make a good point. With my usual disclaimer that I don't subscribe to cable and so only watch the highlight package on cfl.ca, I was wondering before this game why Milanovich was screwing around with an O-Line that had seemed (I gather) to play rather effectively the previous game. Not only wondering but opining that such change wouldn't end well, and indeed, it didn't.

[jerrym]

I PVRed the game as I had to take my youngest son to swim practice and then watched when I came home. Even when the Argos had the lead, I did not have a good feeling because the Als were breaking the first tackle every time that they were not hit just starting to move behind the line of scrimmage or just after making a catch. This has to improve next year or they will be in the same position (or worse if Ottawa improves).
Either Marcus Brady is simply a spotter who tells Mianovich what he sees and does not call or design any play or his play selection and design (even within the confines of the Milanovich short passing scheme) is unimaginative and unadapting to what he sees on the field. We need a better offensive coordinator and possibly a more adaptable head coach.

[Argo]

You make too much sense, Meezy! It isn't like the Argos don't want to be hitting 20 and 30 yard plays but the Montreal defence is getting paid to play too and they are simply being dominant right now. It has helped that they have had many of the same players and the same defensive coordinator for the last two years which speaks to the value of continuity.

OTOH, cf. Einstein's definition of insanity...

[argotom]

I will take up your challenge.

First, the conservative play calling is NOT on Ray. It's on the COACH, who designs the plays. Ray only executes the plays that are called for him.

Secondly, in many cases, you have to take what the defense gives you. The Montreal defense doesn't give up the opportunity for the deep ball. Ray CAN throw the deep ball with success, but he has to 1) execute the designed plays and 2) go with what the defense gives him. Even if the play calls for a deep ball and the receivers are completely covered downfield, he has to go with his safe routes. Would you rather have him throw into tight coverage and risk an INT? Then you'd be blaming him for that too.

I agree that I'd like to see more vertical routes, but I've just explained why they haven't been utilized in the last two games against MTL.

Wrong on both accounts.
The QB executes the play with the check downs or swing passes being the outlet and the pass of last resort.
Meaning, all other receivers are either covered or the QB cannot get the ball out to them.
So it's a combination of the receiver not getting open or the QB cannot make the throw because the pressure or the inability?
The nonsense of the defense giving the QB something is by and large untrue.
Sure they will give you all day the crap that RR is famous for being the check downs ONLY when you do not stretch the defense and fail to go vertical.
The QB must make the defense honest so they do not cheat.
And that's on the QB.
The scheme set up by Milanovich stinks and the execution by RR is not much better for failure to go north.

[MEEZY]

Wrong on both accounts.
The QB executes the play with the check downs or swing passes being the outlet and the pass of last resort.
Meaning, all other receivers are either covered or the QB cannot get the ball out to them.
So it's a combination of the receiver not getting open or the QB cannot make the throw because the pressure or the inability?
The nonsense of the defense giving the QB something is by and large untrue.
Sure they will give you all day the crap that RR is famous for being the check downs ONLY when you do not stretch the defense and fail to go vertical.
The QB must make the defense honest so they do not cheat.
And that's on the QB.
The scheme set up by Milanovich stinks and the execution by RR is not much better for failure to go north.

You claim that I'm wrong and yet you've basically restated everything that I've said.

Ray's use of the "last resort" pass indicates that yes, "all other receivers are covered." That's exactly what I was saying! If no one's open, what do you want him to do? Throw a pick? How is it his fault that no one can get open?

In the case that Montreal takes away the deep routes, Milo (and Brady) should change up the play calls. And you brought up another good point - maybe the receivers aren't getting open. So some of the blame lies with them as well perhaps. And yes, it's a commonly-known fact that offenses have to exploit the holes in the defense rather than throw the ball into coverage. As I said, if Ray threw 2 or 3 picks, you'd be all over him for that as well. Interesting that you disappear after games that he does well.

I also agree that "the scheme set up by Milanovich stinks." But how is that "on the QB?" Should Ray perhaps approach Milanovich and say, "hey, Scott, I'm sick of the two-yard passes that you call, maybe we should try some deep routes?" You seem to be suggesting that Ray override Milanovich's play-calling. I don't know how that would go over.

Keep in mind a few more things: defenses all over the league have been playing better. And Toronto has had a revolving door of receivers all year long, which perhaps suggests that Ray has never achieved a level of comfort or familiarity with them to risk throwing into high-coverage situations like you suggest he do. In addition, Toronto's offense is STILL ranked at or near the top in several categories, so your obsessive finger-pointing at Ray seems ludicrous.

Assuming Ray doesn't play next week, your theory will be put to the test. If Harris and/or Gale struggles against Ottawa, one of the worst defenses in the league, your hatred for Ray will become even more transparent.

[Antwon]

Good points!

[argotom]

You claim that I'm wrong and yet you've basically restated everything that I've said.

Ray's use of the "last resort" pass indicates that yes, "all other receivers are covered." That's exactly what I was saying! If no one's open, what do you want him to do? Throw a pick? How is it his fault that no one can get open?

In the case that Montreal takes away the deep routes, Milo (and Brady) should change up the play calls. And you brought up another good point - maybe the receivers aren't getting open. So some of the blame lies with them as well perhaps. And yes, it's a commonly-known fact that offenses have to exploit the holes in the defense rather than throw the ball into coverage. As I said, if Ray threw 2 or 3 picks, you'd be all over him for that as well. Interesting that you disappear after games that he does well.

I also agree that "the scheme set up by Milanovich stinks." But how is that "on the QB?" Should Ray perhaps approach Milanovich and say, "hey, Scott, I'm sick of the two-yard passes that you call, maybe we should try some deep routes?" You seem to be suggesting that Ray override Milanovich's play-calling. I don't know how that would go over.

Keep in mind a few more things: defenses all over the league have been playing better. And Toronto has had a revolving door of receivers all year long, which perhaps suggests that Ray has never achieved a level of comfort or familiarity with them to risk throwing into high-coverage situations like you suggest he do. In addition, Toronto's offense is STILL ranked at or near the top in several categories, so your obsessive finger-pointing at Ray seems ludicrous.

Assuming Ray doesn't play next week, your theory will be put to the test. If Harris and/or Gale struggles against Ottawa, one of the worst defenses in the league, your hatred for Ray will become even more transparent.

A QB has to throw long even when the receivers are not open in order to keep the defense honest.
On top of which, these type of throws may get us a interference penalty on the defense.
Also, the odd time a receiver may actually make a great catch when the coverage is zero.
Finally and you have to take a pill if you actually believe, but I do not hate Ray.
He is a drop aback passer in a league which most of the time dictates for a mobile out of the pocket variety.
In my opinion his best before date has passed and the end of last year would have been the maximum return potential had we traded him for example to suitors such as Ottawa, Winnipeg or Hamilton.
We gave up on a young QB that this team had actually developed and who is a first stringer and may be in this league for years.
Finally, there is a reason why Eric Tillman traded RR a few years back.
It was time to develop a younger player and indirectly after a few failures is lead to a Mike Reilly, who may be this years MOP.
As for Harris and Gale for next week, neither in my opinion is ready to take over but I would take Gale over the other to start.

[MEEZY]

A QB has to throw long even when the receivers are not open in order to keep the defense honest.
On top of which, these type of throws may get us a interference penalty on the defense.
Also, the odd time a receiver may actually make a great catch when the coverage is zero.
Finally and you have to take a pill if you actually believe, but I do not hate Ray.
He is a drop aback passer in a league which most of the time dictates for a mobile out of the pocket variety.
In my opinion his best before date has passed and the end of last year would have been the maximum return potential had we traded him for example to suitors such as Ottawa, Winnipeg or Hamilton.
We gave up on a young QB that this team had actually developed and who is a first stringer and may be in this league for years.
Finally, there is a reason why Eric Tillman traded RR a few years back.
It was time to develop a younger player and indirectly after a few failures is lead to a Mike Reilly, who may be this years MOP.
As for Harris and Gale for next week, neither in my opinion is ready to take over but I would take Gale over the other to start.

I still disagree on the fact of throwing into tight coverage, as the risk is greater (ie. an INT) than a potential reward (pass interference or great catch, especially the latter given our quality of receivers). I do see the benefit in drawing an interference penalty and keeping the defense honest, provided there's minimal risk of a pick. However, as I stated ad nauseum, this is on THE PLAY CALLING and not Ray himself. I'm not sure you actually read my arguments.

I do agree that Ray is, to some extent, one-dimensional in terms of his drop-back passing style. I do wish he would run more as well, but that's not his forte, just like Mike Reilly's forte is not throwing intermediate to deep routes. They are completely opposite types of QBs but both have merit in their own ways. BTW, Ray is also in discussion for the MOP award. Although I doubt he gets it, he is still one of the names being bandied about, which shows his value to the team.

There is a reason that Eric Tillman traded Ray. Tillman is an egotistical idiot. And, if you agree with him....well....I don't like hurling personal insults, but since you gave me a psychiatric evaluation of your own....

I believe that you dislike ("hate" is too harsh perhaps) Ray because the vast majority of your posts are about HIM. Whenever you assign blame for Argo losses, Ray's name is nearly always the first one mentioned. I hardly ever hear you critique any other players; in your opinion, it's always Ray's fault. And you never give him credit for wins I'm sure many other posters on here will concur with my assessment.