How Good Is Jordan Herdman? (His Dad Played for the Argos)

[paulwoods13]

As far as I can tell, the NFL focuses just as heavily, if not more, than the CFL does on combine and test results. Maybe someone in one of those leagues will deviate from this at some point by suggesting that how fast a guy runs a straight line for 40 yards without pads or pursuers is only of marginal value in determining how well he'll play football. But I don't think the CFL is any more guilty of this thinking than the NFL. It's been endemic in pro football for at least 40 years. There seems little point in complaining about it, any more than there is in complaining that slight players seldom get a real shot in hockey, or short guys in basketball. There are always exceptions, but the pro leagues have what they think of as ideal body types, weight-lifting ability etc., and rarely deviate from this. It would take a team both doing so and succeeding by going outside the box for this to change.

[OV Argo]

As far as I can tell, the NFL focuses just as heavily, if not more, than the CFL does on combine and test results. Maybe someone in one of those leagues will deviate from this at some point by suggesting that how fast a guy runs a straight line for 40 yards without pads or pursuers is only of marginal value in determining how well he'll play football. But I don't think the CFL is any more guilty of this thinking than the NFL. It's been endemic in pro football for at least 40 years. There seems little point in complaining about it, any more than there is in complaining that slight players seldom get a real shot in hockey, or short guys in basketball. There are always exceptions, but the pro leagues have what they think of as ideal body types, weight-lifting ability etc., and rarely deviate from this. It would take a team both doing so and succeeding by going outside the box for this to change.

I wonder if any football team could ever succeed going outside the box in playing a short (5-9) QB who was considered only good for college ball "athlete" level competition and not good enough for the pros cause he was too short, and didn't have a cannon for an arm, ?

[Scooter McCray]

An advantage the CFL has always had and Bill Belichek has been looking outside the box. With 1000 schools in the US and another two dozen in Canada playing football there is a lot of talent that is under the radar. First it was racism that brought Custis Ealey Holloway Moon and others here. Now it is prejudice against size that brings the Fluties and Plesses here. The good thing is there are lots of average football talent evaluators who are too lazy and rely on combine and physical attributes to make their decisions. The exceptional evaluators north and south of the border can find all of the diamonds in the rough. There are other Cam Wakes out there.

[Shatto]

In defense of GM's and their staff, to a fair extent their jobs rely on them selecting and signing players who will help their team win. Those who do this well, keep their jobs and may even get promoted. Those who don't are likely to be fired. Identifying talent is extremely important to them and most will go to any length to find hidden talent.

Most football people would agree there are five aspects in identifying talent: 1) determining the individual's athletic talent (combines/pro days etc.) 2) watching game film to see how a player use his skills in competition and to see how he handles set backs and failures, as well as successes on the field 3) watching live games to see how the player performs for the whole game 4) interviews with the player to find out what type of person he is and try to get a better handle on what makes him tick 5) recommendations from his former coaches to add any additional insight on the player.

Some may question whether all scouts actively utilize all those aspects. Certainly effective scouts do. In fact, even scouts from CIS teams, attempt to do all those things, when recruiting players for their university.

Do some scouts have a personal bias as to size, athletic testing results etc.? Obviously some do. Do they sometimes make mistakes in rating players? Of course, since this is an imperfect process and one cant always judge heart and determination or lack of those qualities.

Some may disagree with the above statements, which is fine, as everyone is entitled to their opinion and who knows, they be right. However let's agree that it is important to present a balanced picture.

[jerrym]

As far as I can tell, the NFL focuses just as heavily, if not more, than the CFL does on combine and test results. Maybe someone in one of those leagues will deviate from this at some point by suggesting that how fast a guy runs a straight line for 40 yards without pads or pursuers is only of marginal value in determining how well he'll play football. But I don't think the CFL is any more guilty of this thinking than the NFL. It's been endemic in pro football for at least 40 years. There seems little point in complaining about it, any more than there is in complaining that slight players seldom get a real shot in hockey, or short guys in basketball. There are always exceptions, but the pro leagues have what they think of as ideal body types, weight-lifting ability etc., and rarely deviate from this. It would take a team both doing so and succeeding by going outside the box for this to change.

I wonder if any football team could ever succeed going outside the box in playing a short (5-9) QB who was considered only good for college ball "athlete" level competition and not good enough for the pros cause he was too short, and didn't have a cannon for an arm, ?

Seattle Seahawks also have done well by going outside the box, including a drafting a 5 foot 11' QB, Russell Wilson among others in 2012. This approach also helped build the best defence in terms of scoring for several years in a row.

The Seattle Seahawks made plenty of unorthodox moves at the 2012 NFL Draft, but nothing that seemed like it could have been called an outright mistake. The analysts don't seem to agree, however, as many were underwhelmed by the Seahawks' selections over the weekend.
Here is what Rob Rang of CBS Sports had to say:

Seattle Seahawks: C
The Seahawks pulled one of the real shockers of the first round with the selection of passing rushing specialist Bruce Irvin at No. 12 overall. At 6-3, 242 pounds, Irvin is too small to be a traditional 4-3 defensive end but in head coach Pete Carroll's scheme, size isn't as important as speed for the right defensive end (or LEO) position and Irvin certainly has that. Drafting a specialist at No. 15 is a stretch but despite boasting a very good defense on first and second down a year ago, Seattle's lack of pass rush has killed them in recent years. Few will call Irvin's pick a reach a year from now if he ranks among the rookie leaders in sacks. Second round pick Bobby Wagner's versatility and reliable open-field tackling skills could earn him a spot in the starting lineup as a rookie. General manager John Schneider and offensive coordinator Darrell Bevell loved Russell Wilson's instincts and ignored concerns about his height to make him another surprising Seahawks' pick in the third round.

http://seattle.sbnation.com/2012/4/2...-2012-seahawks

[Seahawks] Schneider and Carroll seem to actually endorse the “best player available” motto in a meaningful way as opposed to merely paying lip service to it. They have made some picks that have been treated with suspicion by the outside world but largely they have made pretty good picks. I could attempt to evaluate these picks but for the most part it is too early to do so, though some fairly significant successes (Russell Wilson, Russell Okung, Earl Thomas, Bobby Wagner) are apparent already.

http://12thmanrising.com/2013/02/25/...-pete-carroll/

[paulwoods13]

I wonder if any football team could ever succeed going outside the box in playing a short (5-9) QB who was considered only good for college ball "athlete" level competition and not good enough for the pros cause he was too short, and didn't have a cannon for an arm, ?

As i said, there are always exceptions. It took 8 yrs in Canada for Flutie to get a shot in the NFL. It also took 6 yrs in Canada for Warren Moon to get a shot.

[paulwoods13]

An advantage the CFL has always had and Bill Belichek has been looking outside the box. With 1000 schools in the US and another two dozen in Canada playing football there is a lot of talent that is under the radar. First it was racism that brought Custis Ealey Holloway Moon and others here. Now it is prejudice against size that brings the Fluties and Plesses here. The good thing is there are lots of average football talent evaluators who are too lazy and rely on combine and physical attributes to make their decisions. The exceptional evaluators north and south of the border can find all of the diamonds in the rough. There are other Cam Wakes out there.

Flutie came here 27 years ago, Pless 31 years ago. Now Russell Wilson stays in the NFL. We've lost that advantage that came from the NFL shunning undersized players.

[Scooter McCray]

I think what is being lost is the expanding NFL rosters and the dollars allocated to those roster spots. There are still a lot of good players to go around and diamonds like Cam Wakes. The scouts and GMs need to work harder than before.

[ArgoGabe22]

Not sure if the smaller, more athletic QB trend in the NFL will last. A lot of QBs are starting to become busts (RG3, Geno Smith, Kaepernick, Manziel)

[jerrym]

I wonder if the slower time Jordan had in 40 yarder might lead to teams taking a closer look at his twin brother, Justin, who played OLB in a SFU defence designed to direct opponent traffic towards Justin. Despite this, Justin ended 3rd in tackles in 2015 and 7th tackles in the Division II GNAC league and displayed good speed as seen in his highlight reel below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itUuVYDw_xI

[Invader]

Justin looks pretty darn good, at least against Div. 2 competition. Maybe a savy GM will draft both Herdman twins, like the trade Brian Burke engineered to draft Henrik and Daniel Sedin for the Canucks...a matched set!

[j-ski]

I wonder if the slower time Jordan had in 40 yarder might lead to teams taking a closer look at his twin brother, Justin, who played OLB in a SFU defence designed to direct opponent traffic towards Justin. Despite this, Justin ended 3rd in tackles in 2015 and 7th tackles in the Division II GNAC league and displayed good speed as seen in his highlight reel below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itUuVYDw_xI

Justin posted a even slower time in the 40 (5.09) than Jordan.

[doubleblue]

Justin posted a even slower time in the 40 (5.09) than Jordan.

Not much difference in 4.97 and 5.09, they are identical twins after all. Maybe the earlier reports on Jordan weren't that far off. CFL scouts had him at about a third round pick. Barker used to say if a player couldn't run at least a 4.8 he couldn't play special teams let alone cover from the line backing position. Twenty years ago they would be good MLB prospects (a short 5'11 and 235) but now with all the passing in the league LBers have to drop back in coverage more and more. Jordan had a lot of tackles in college, no doubt about that, but that was playing 4 down football. So I hope they both can have good careers in the CFL, but going by that pro day work out clip look a little to slow of foot IMO. Maybe should get a look as a Rush End specialist and/or 1st down MLB.

[OV Argo]

Love to see all the genius, super-expert CFL scouts ignore Herdman's stellar college ball D play-making and figure he ain't good enough for the CFL, and then the Argos luck into picking him in the later rounds. Happened with Kevin Eiben - Argos get him as a 4th round pick - goes on to be a CFL all-star defensive player - proving the "scouts" who thought he was too slow or something for the CFL, to be clueless morons. ;o)

[jerrym]

BC Lions Director of CIS Scouting, Geroy Simon, and the Herdmans' SFU coach, Kelly Bates (a former BC Lion), commented on the poor tests times at the Herdmans' Pro Day. Whether Simon's comments are a matter of politeness remains to be seen.

The appearance at the time, however, was that the scouts were aware that Jordan and his brother show much better on game tape than they do in combine drills — they’re better in-game.
“These guys are not great testers, but their film and their testing numbers don’t really match up. The testing can’t be the only thing you look at with these guys. They’re not great testers, but when you see them on the field, they look fast, they play fast, and they play physical,” said Simon, who is now working with the team in charge of Canadian scouting.

“Jordan and Justin, I’m sure they’ll tell you that some of their testing numbers aren’t what they wanted them to be, but that’s sort of the way they are,” said SFU head coach Kelly Bates, who coached the Herdmans for two years. “What they are is — when you put them on the field in a middle of the game — is their speed changes, their anticipation, their instincts take over and that’s what makes them ball players.
“It’s nice to have these testing numbers, and it’s nice to do these testing events, but at the end of the day, the film doesn’t lie.”

http://www.the-peak.ca/2017/03/pro-d...or-sfu-alumni/

[Argo57]

Love to see all the genius, super-expert CFL scouts ignore Herdman's stellar college ball D play-making and figure he ain't good enough for the CFL, and then the Argos luck into picking him in the later rounds. Happened with Kevin Eiben - Argos get him as a 4th round pick - goes on to be a CFL all-star defensive player - proving the "scouts" who thought he was too slow or something for the CFL, to be clueless morons. ;o)

Thinking the same way OV, some players just know how to play the game.

[AngeloV]

Love to see all the genius, super-expert CFL scouts ignore Herdman's stellar college ball D play-making and figure he ain't good enough for the CFL, and then the Argos luck into picking him in the later rounds. Happened with Kevin Eiben - Argos get him as a 4th round pick - goes on to be a CFL all-star defensive player - proving the "scouts" who thought he was too slow or something for the CFL, to be clueless morons. ;o)

In all seriousness OV, can I ask you how many times you've seen them play?

Admittedly, I haven't. But he was the leader on a defence that had an 0-10 record and gave up 508 points (scoring a grand total of 83). Could his in game numbers be deceiving? When a team trails by that much game in and game out, they are going to see the opposition run the ball a lot. That can really inflate tackles numbers.

[OV Argo]

In all seriousness OV, can I ask you how many times you've seen them play?

Admittedly, I haven't. But he was the leader on a defence that had an 0-10 record and gave up 508 points (scoring a grand total of 83). Could his in game numbers be deceiving? When a team trails by that much game in and game out, they are going to see the opposition run the ball a lot. That can really inflate tackles numbers.

Haven't seen him play except for hi-lite packages.


In all seriousness - what do you not get about a player that sets tackle records, makes all-star year in/out AND is Conference D player of the year multiple times? Trying to discredit him cause he plays on a weak team in DII ball ? Justin Capicotti was a co-winner of D player of the year, once, on that same SFU team/Conference - seems to me he showed he can play in the CFL. That's like all the "scouts" I heard from who said Andy Fantuz would do nothing in the CFL cause he played in OUA ball against weak defences and was too slow; same deal with the myopics who thought Jesse Lumsden could do nothing in the CFL (like Jimbo Barker who opined he should be a fullback in the CFL) And what do you not get about Kevin Eiben falling to the 4th round of the CFL draft inspite of being an all-star and INT leader in a lower level of US college ball?

You want to get on the GOB band-wagon of finding excuses to have a low opinion of top notch Canadian talent that is available to the CFL ?- be my guest. I find this type of thinking really sad - sorry bout that.

[AngeloV]

Haven't seen him play except for hi-lite packages.


In all seriousness - what do you not get about a player that sets tackle records, makes all-star year in/out AND is Conference D player of the year multiple times? Trying to discredit him cause he plays on a weak team in DII ball ? Justin Capicotti was a co-winner of D player of the year, once, on that same SFU team/Conference - seems to me he showed he can play in the CFL. That's like all the "scouts" I heard from who said Andy Fantuz would do nothing in the CFL cause he played in OUA ball against weak defences and was too slow; same deal with the myopics who thought Jesse Lumsden could do nothing in the CFL (like Jimbo Barker who opined he should be a fullback in the CFL) And what do you not get about Kevin Eiben falling to the 4th round of the CFL draft inspite of being an all-star and INT leader in a lower level of US college ball?

You want to get on the GOB band-wagon of finding excuses to have a low opinion of top notch Canadian talent that is available to the CFL ?- be my guest. I find this type of thinking really sad - sorry bout that.

OK, I was trying to be serious, and was just asking a question. Everybody looks good in their hi-light packages. Your comparisons to Lumsden and Fantuz tell me that you only see what you want to see. Those guys played huge rolls on teams that were very good, not losing by an average score of 50-8 week in and week out.

[OV Argo]

OK, I was trying to be serious, and was just asking a question. Everybody looks good in their hi-light packages. Your comparisons to Lumsden and Fantuz tell me that you only see what you want to see. Those guys played huge rolls on teams that were very good, not losing by an average score of 50-8 week in and week out.

Pfft - whatever - just laughable IMO - you're saying playing on a bad team is reason to discredit an outstanding player? Jim Corrigal was a real stiff of a DE then playing on some Argo teams that got whacked often. And the NFL scouts who invited Herdman to play in their premier scouting event (The Senior Bowl) should have laughed off his D play-making accomplishments at SFU? - WTF ? You want to ask questions but can't answer mine about the examples of Capicotti or Eiben? Maybe just admit you have little respect for top Canadian talent coming into the CFL unless an Argo team thinker expert drafts them and tells you they are good ?