Is David Braley's Other Team Following a Parallel History to that of the Argos

[paulwoods13]

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blo...tainment-be-it

Now who's lying in this report: Braley, Rogers, or both?

Ummm, I read that story at the time it was published and again just now. Nowhere in there is a named source giving any credible information about an actual offer having been made by MLSE for the team. The closest we get is this:

A report from Rogers Sportsnet suggested Braley is asking $10-million for the team, but has only received an offer of $2-million. Braley dismissed those numbers when asked on Wednesday.


My post that you responded to took issue with the notion that MLSE had offered $2M for the Argos. There is nothing in the Nat Post report confirming that MLSE has offered anything for the team, much less $2M.

Since nobody else dares to valuate CFL franchises, hold onto your hats, here they are (no bs, just the facts, ma'am):

This may be your all-time classic post -- describe something as "no bs, just the facts" and expect us all to accept this without a shred of actual -- fact-based -- evidence. It's wonderful conjecture. There's little doubt Sask is the most valuable franchise in the CFL, but everything else in your post is conjecture, not "just the facts."

[Fumblitis]

Ummm, I read that story at the time it was published and again just now. Nowhere in there is a named source giving any credible information about an actual offer having been made by MLSE for the team. The closest we get is this:

A report from Rogers Sportsnet suggested Braley is asking $10-million for the team, but has only received an offer of $2-million. Braley dismissed those numbers when asked on Wednesday.


My post that you responded to took issue with the notion that MLSE had offered $2M for the Argos. There is nothing in the Nat Post report confirming that MLSE has offered anything for the team, much less $2M.

And in return, you have now answered my question: Rogers Sportnet is lying. Thank you.

[paulwoods13]

And in return, you have now answered my question: Rogers Sportnet is lying. Thank you.

That is one interp. Another is that a Rogers reporter found out, from a source he cannot name, that Braley was asking for $10M and MLSE had offered $2M. You see, anything could be true. Bottom line is that no one in position to actually know -- someone directly connected to the Argos, or directly connected to MLSE (and not at the level of a Rogers reporter) -- has ever confirmed anything of substance with respect to alleged purchase discussions between the parties. People accept as fact things they hear reported, but without knowing the original sources of the information being reported we cannot know if there is any validity to it.

[Fumblitis]

That is one interp. Another is that a Rogers reporter found out, from a source he cannot name, that Braley was asking for $10M and MLSE had offered $2M. You see, anything could be true. Bottom line is that no one in position to actually know -- someone directly connected to the Argos, or directly connected to MLSE (and not at the level of a Rogers reporter) -- has ever confirmed anything of substance with respect to alleged purchase discussions between the parties. People accept as fact things they hear reported, but without knowing the original sources of the information being reported we cannot know if there is any validity to it.

So Paul in your opinion, why do these reporter keep writing this stuff if it has no validity to it? Why would someone like Rogers whose anti CFL string along the masses in regards to this matter? Slow day at the office? Do they enjoy toying with the emotions of die hard Argo fans? What's the deal?

[paulwoods13]

So Paul in your opinion, why do these reporter keep writing this stuff if it has no validity to it? Why would someone like Rogers whose anti CFL string along the masses in regards to this matter? Slow day at the office? Do they enjoy toying with the emotions of die hard Argo fans? What's the deal?

First of all I did NOT say there is no validity to anything that's been reported. I said we have no named sources attached to these reports and therefore we can't judge their validity.

Reporters report what they do for many reasons. Speculating about a particular reporter's motivations in reporting something would be just that -- speculation. I don't feel there's anything to be gained from it. I'm waiting until we have something concrete -- some information that has been directly attributed to a principal -- before I invest any effort commenting.

[Invader]

His values are great in theory, but you need some willing buyers to test the theory. With the possible exception of MLSE, I don't see any for the Argos.

You're right argolio, until franchises start changing hands there are few benchmarks to valuate CFL franchises. The most recent sale was the Stampeders a couple of years ago, when the Flames bought controlling interest for a $20M franchise value (that was before the more than doubling of the TV contract). The tremendous success of the RedBlacks, who paid a substantial franchise fee, will have also have buoyed CFL franchise values.

But a reputable accounting firm needs to scrutinize each team's lease, assets and Financial statements to ascertain more exact franchise valuations.

Braley did say he has several offers on the table for the Argos (including a community ownership proposal). While MLSE approached him about buying the Argos, he said they never talked money. MLSE's supposedly low offer might have reflected them paying for the BMO/CFL conversion instead of waiting for the feds $10M contribution? I don't think the Argos can be sold to anyone except MLSE until a reasonable lease is signed at BMO and the missing $10M located.

Once the lease is confirmed, there'll likely be a groundswell of interest in the Argos, with the ticket office being overwhelmed with season ticket requests. Fans buying seasons tickets this year (or even 5-game Flex-packs) will guarantee them an equivilant seat at BMO for 2016, if the lease is completed by June. The Argos could sell 15,000 season tickets in a heartbeat and perhaps be forced to open the upper deck for late-season games in the final-farewell season at RC.

[paulwoods13]

You're right argolio, until franchises start changing hands there are few benchmarks to valuate CFL franchises.

Sounds quite different from your previous post so I'm trying to figure out how to square this with no bs, just the facts.

But a reputable accounting firm needs to scrutinize each team's lease, assets and Financial statements to ascertain more exact franchise valuations.

It will never happen in a million years -- why would it? -- but even if it did, the value of a franchise is what someone is willing to pay for it, not a theoretical number derived by accountants.

Braley did say he has several offers on the table for the Argos (including a community ownership proposal). While MLSE approached him about buying the Argos, he said they never talked money.

Source? Because I can find only a story that quotes Braley as saying he had two -- not several -- offers on the table. Same story says (without attribution) that MLSE "approached Braley last year, but made no offer." Even if it's true MLSE approached Braley (and without attribution we can only surmise that this is what Braley himself told the reporter) making no offer is somewhat different than "they never talked money."

http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/...ball_team.html

Once the lease is confirmed, there'll likely be a groundswell of interest in the Argos, with the ticket office being overwhelmed with season ticket requests. Fans buying seasons tickets this year (or even 5-game Flex-packs) will guarantee them an equivilant seat at BMO for 2016, if the lease is completed by June. The Argos could sell 15,000 season tickets in a heartbeat and perhaps be forced to open the upper deck for late-season games in the final-farewell season at RC.

Much as I wish this were true, I don't think there is even a remote chance of 15k season's tickets being sold and the upper deck being opened. If the ticket office were to become overwhelmed by requests, it would only be because there aren't many people working there any more. This kind of hyperbole is sadly typical.

[Invader]

Forbes magazine in the U.S. hired an accounting firm to estimate the values of American sport franchises, with TFC projected to be worth $120M. The franchise didn't need to change hands for Forbes to make that valuation. I don't see what's so different about the CFL? I made my estimates, which can be believed or discarded as you choose. I have some facts I used to ascertain those values which I elaborated in other threads dedicated to this topic. I suggested the league or media outlet should get someone more qualified than me to estimate CFL franchise values, like an accounting firm. I believe Braley said he had 4 offers for the Argos. If the Argos can't sell 15,000 season tickets for their first year at BMO, then I guess Toronto just isn't a football town and perhaps the team should fold or be relocated?

[ArgoRavi]

Forbes magazine in the U.S. hired an accounting firm to estimate the values of American sport franchises, with TFC projected to be worth $120M. The franchise didn't need to change hands for Forbes to make that valuation. I don't see what's so different about the CFL? I made my estimates, which can be believed or discarded as you choose. I have some facts I used to ascertain those values which I elaborated in other threads dedicated to this topic. I suggested the league or media outlet should get someone more qualified than me to estimate CFL franchise values, like an accounting firm. I believe Braley said he had 4 offers for the Argos. If the Argos can't sell 15,000 season tickets for their first year at BMO, then I guess Toronto just isn't a football town and perhaps the team should fold or be relocated?

They may very well be able to sell 15k season tickets for their first year at BMO but they aren't going to be able to do that in one or two months as you seem to be suggesting that they should. If we are to believe Braley, a lease deal for BMO may not be announced until June or July. There could be a slight uptick in tickets sold at that point for this season but it is unrealistic to expect 11,500 season tickets to be sold in such a short time, especially as Braley has shut down much of the Argos' marketing/ticketing operations.

[paulwoods13]

I believe Braley said he had 4 offers for the Argos.

It's up to four now? When did he suggest that? The same time he suggested he was negotiating with cities in the GTA to build a stadium?

If the Argos can't sell 15,000 season tickets for their first year at BMO, then I guess Toronto just isn't a football town and perhaps the team should fold or be relocated?

So is it 15,000 for first year at BMO, or 15,000 in a heartbeat? Those are two completely different equations.

[Fumblitis]

It's up to four now? When did he suggest that? The same time he suggested he was negotiating with cities in the GTA to build a stadium?

It looks like 3 according to this article. MLSE, the community run group and somebody 6-8 months ago.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/...ball_team.html

[paulwoods13]

It looks like 3 according to this article. MLSE, the community run group and somebody 6-8 months ago.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/argos/...ball_team.html

Right but as noted above in this thread there is no attribution for the suggestion MLSE made an offer. We are chasing our own tails here.

[Neely2005]

Forbes magazine in the U.S. hired an accounting firm to estimate the values of American sport franchises, with TFC projected to be worth $120M. The franchise didn't need to change hands for Forbes to make that valuation. I don't see what's so different about the CFL? I made my estimates, which can be believed or discarded as you choose. I have some facts I used to ascertain those values which I elaborated in other threads dedicated to this topic. I suggested the league or media outlet should get someone more qualified than me to estimate CFL franchise values, like an accounting firm. I believe Braley said he had 4 offers for the Argos. If the Argos can't sell 15,000 season tickets for their first year at BMO, then I guess Toronto just isn't a football town and perhaps the team should fold or be relocated?

I think that MLS is probably the closest league to the CFL in terms of comparing Valuations. As we know the CFL gets Much higher televison ratings in Canada (and apparently on ESPN too) but MLS does play more games.

[R.J]

All Braley knows how to do is save CFL teams from extinction to give their fans stuff to bitch about.

Braley seems great at buying franchise's when nobody else wants them, but he's not so great at owning them.

Hamilton - Stuck around for a couple of years and when it didn't get any better he dropped them.

BC - Was an absentee owner in the beginning and the Lions were floundering until Ackles came on board, yet once Ackles passed away it seems as though the Lions are on the downtrend once again. Closing the upper deck for the second time in 15 years and season tickets sales well under 15,000 isn't a good sign.

Toronto - Do I really even need to go into detail ?

[paulwoods13]

I think that MLS is probably the closest league to the CFL in terms of comparing Valuations. As we know the CFL gets Much higher televison ratings in Canada (and apparently on ESPN too) but MLS does play more games.

Why are they comparable? MLS plays in many U.S. markets (including giant ones) and has huge franchise fees and some players making millions of dollars. CFL is no doubt closer to MLS than it is to MLB, NFL, NBA and NHL, but other than the fact both are well below the big four, I don't see anything else that makes them comparable.

[Fumblitis]

Why are they comparable? MLS plays in many U.S. markets (including giant ones) and has huge franchise fees and some players making millions of dollars. CFL is no doubt closer to MLS than it is to MLB, NFL, NBA and NHL, but other than the fact both are well below the big four, I don't see anything else that makes them comparable.

It's not comparable on an economic basis. It's only comparable on a value of entertainment basis. It's funny I talk to immigrants every now and then and when sports are discussed, I ask two questions. 1. Do you have domestic leagues in your country for this or that sport? 2. Are those leagues popular and well supported by the public? And the answer is always yes and yes. It's only in this f@&ked up country that we have to have such an inferiority complex and won't support our own domestic pro league.

[paulwoods13]

But the discussion was about franchise value, not entertainment value. On the available evidence -- what franchises are selling for -- MLS franchises are worth much more than CFL franchises. That may or may not be based on faulty premises and smartly inflated demand, but it's a financial reality when it comes to comparing franchise values.

[Fumblitis]

But the discussion was about franchise value, not entertainment value. On the available evidence -- what franchises are selling for -- MLS franchises are worth much more than CFL franchises. That may or may not be based on faulty premises and smartly inflated demand, but it's a financial reality when it comes to comparing franchise values.

That was my point on the economic aspect that they don't compare partly because MLS has a far larger reach and financial resources than the CFL. They just plain and simply can't be compared. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

[paulwoods13]

Got ya. No apology necessary.

[AngeloV]

Without Mr. Braley there is a good chance there would be no CFL right now.
Too many people here and on other boards are piling on this gentleman.
He deserves whatever he is looking to sell both teams.
Frankly even in this wannabe US marketplace here in Toronto, $20M is not much to ask for a professional team in a treasured league.
Especially when on the opposite end of the scale the most valued team is likely worth north of $100M.

What time do you take the stage at Yuk Yuks??

Been on vacation the last week. Glad to see some things just don't change.

Yes I now get it

And the comedy just keeps on going.