Why we should not/will not trade Ricky Ray

**paulwoods13** · 07-26-2015, 03:52 PM

Since the idea of trading him keeps coming up in threads, I thought it would be good to start a separate one for this topic.

IMO the Argos won't trade him and should not trade him. Here's why.

1. We have a legitimate shot at winning the Grey Cup this season. We look to be far better than anyone expected, and have almost finished the worst part of our schedule (the next two weeks will also be rough, with three games in a 12-day span). The Tiger-Cats have been scuffling along, the Als have a rookie QB who looks good but is small and potentially fragile, and the Redblacks have Henry Burris at QB. Out west, other than Calgary (which has been far from dominant) there is no obvious Cup favourite. If you think you can win the Grey Cup, you better ensure you have depth at QB -- especially given how frequently that position has fallen victim to injuries the past two seasons.

2. If any of the other eight current starting QBs were lost to injury, how well positioned would that team be to keep competing? Calgary has Tate but after him, every team has an inexperienced or not-very-good backup. If Hamilton loses Collaros, they are probably screwed. Same with Montreal and Ottawa. Same with B.C., Winnipeg and Sask. Edm's rookie looked good last night but I'm hardly expecting him to be a playoff game-winning quarterback on the basis of less than one game. And we would have Ricky Ray coming off the bench, or Trevor Harris if Ricky resumes starting. How luxurious is that compared to everyone else?

3. The idea that we can get something big for him in trade ignores a couple of realities. Mid-season trades are extremely rare in the CFL, and mid-season trades involving starting QBs are even more rare; I think the last one may have been in 1983 -- Tom Clements for Dieter Brock. And other than maybe Ottawa, who would want to give up a lot for a 35-year-old QB who could be signed as a free agent in the offseason? As for trading him for a first-round draft choice, we would almost certainly lose such a trade. From 2009 through 2013, I count fewer than half a dozen first-rounders who would be considered stars at their positions. (It's too early to judge 2014 and 2015, IMO.)

4. The idea that we can't possibly afford to keep both RR and TH ignores the fact that we don't know how much the org spends on QBs now and how much it is willing to spend on that position in the future. I would bet that Harris already makes low six figures, and both Gale and McPherson are probably high five figures. So our total spending on QBs now (with a tightwad owner) might be in the range of $750k. I can see a scenario where Ray and Harris combined make around $650k and we have a couple of backups cheaper than Gale and McPherson.

5. People seem to believe RR would not consider being a backup. Yet one of his best friends in the CFL is Jason Maas, who happily and loyally served as a backup for many years despite being capable of starting. I think RR would be willing to consider serving as a backup to TH, especially if he continues to be paid in the $300 range.

**Argo57** · 07-26-2015, 04:15 PM

It all depends on Ray's expectations heading into next season, if he expects a contract in the same $$$ range or even close his option may limited (but who knows).
Ray seems like a realistic level headed guy and may decide to stay in Toronto and play out the rest of his career here in a 2 QB system (at less cash).
I also wonder if coaching could be in the offing for him, if yes then maybe he stays a year or two in a reduced on field role and transitions into a positional coaching or co-ordinator position, either way as Paul has stated keeping him here beyond this season would be a smart insurance move.

**Will** · 07-26-2015, 04:25 PM

For the record, I am against trading Ricky Ray any under circumstances in-season. However, at the risk of sounding like argotom and Rich, I do feel as if the decision of what to do in the off-season might be a little more difficult than when the decision was Collaros and Ray several years ago. We really need to see how Ray performs when he returns before I can be more informed to give an opinion.

**argotom** · 07-26-2015, 04:36 PM

There is no chance the team will allow a second blue chip prospect like Harris go and risk keeping a 36 year old with serious injuries the last two years.

**Argo** · 07-26-2015, 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by argotom

There is no chance the team will allow a second blue chip prospect like Harris go and risk keeping a 36 year old with serious injuries the last two years.

I agree 100% with this (as I should since I said much the same previously).

I also agree with much of what the OP stated.

Meanwhile, Harris, should he continue to excel, should continue to start even after Ray finally returns.

**Ron** · 07-26-2015, 05:03 PM

As good as Harris has been I can't help wondering if ray would have performed even better. Ray with this group of pass catchers might rival the Flutie teams in offense. It may change some close wins into dominating one's.

So no. No trade Ray.

**paulwoods13** · 07-26-2015, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by argotom

There is no chance the team will allow a second blue chip prospect like Harris go and risk keeping a 36 year old with serious injuries the last two years.

I am not arguing for or against that proposition, which is beside the point I'm making. We do not have to trade Ricky Ray in order to keep Trevor Harris. We can either let Ricky walk or try to keep both guys or let Trevor walk. That will play out on its own later. My point is we should not, and in my view will not, trade Ricky Ray in 2015. Feel free to argue against (or for) that proposition.

**AngeloV** · 07-26-2015, 05:34 PM

Harris has been great, no question. I still would love to see how good Ray would be with this receiving core. I believe the Argos will find a way to keep both, and if Harris is deemed to be the starter, I think Ray would be ok with that at this stage of his career. You can easily find a way to pay each in the 300k neighbourhood. The spend close to 600 on the 2 as it is, and still seem to be well under the cap...not overpaying during FA frenzie helps with that.

**bluto** · 07-26-2015, 05:48 PM

seeing a poster discuss what team may be able to make a trade for Ray this season pretty much makes that poster one i can skip past when skimming the forums

**argotom** · 07-26-2015, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by paulwoods13

I am not arguing for or against that proposition, which is beside the point I'm making. We do not have to trade Ricky Ray in order to keep Trevor Harris. We can either let Ricky walk or try to keep both guys or let Trevor walk. That will play out on its own later. My point is we should not, and in my view will not, trade Ricky Ray in 2015. Feel free to argue against (or for) that proposition.

If the premise is that both RR and Harris will agree to stay on the team, well then we have a QB controversy?
Also, what about the cap, it's likely that Harris will ask for the low end of the usual 1st string money at around $200K plus bonuses.
Isn't Ricky also around the $450K mark?
Is it wise to tie up that combined money for 2 QB's when one can only play?
With Ricky being 36 and the two major injuries, how long will he want to play?
If we trade him, then maybe we can get a 1st round pick let's say from the Riders or RB?

**ArgoRavi** · 07-26-2015, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by argotom

If the premise is that both RR and Harris will agree to stay on the team, well then we have a QB controversy?
Also, what about the cap, it's likely that Harris will ask for the low end of the usual 1st string money at around $200K plus bonuses.
Isn't Ricky also around the $450K mark?
Is it wise to tie up that combined money for 2 QB's when one can only play?
With Ricky being 36 and the two major injuries, how long will he want to play?
If we trade him, then maybe we can get a 1st round pick let's say from the Riders or RB?

I am so sick and tired of hearing the media-generated word "QB controversy" when CFL teams through the 1970s, 1980s and even well into the 1990s often had two and even three QBs who could play and they would shuffle between those two QBs successfully. Why in the hell is this out of the question today? Because some in the media say so?

You absolutely do not trade Ray or Harris during the season. The goal at the start of any season is to win the Grey Cup and the Argos have as good of a shot at it as anyone right now. As Paul has said above, the Argos would have the most depth at that position and you don't give that depth up with a chance to win the Grey Cup. Being a 1st round draft pick is hardly a guarantee of success as we have seen over the years so trading Ray during the season for a 1st round draft pick because you are worried about losing him in free agency would be an incredibly stupid move WHEN YOU ARE CURRENTLY A GREY CUP CONTENDER.

**paulwoods13** · 07-26-2015, 07:04 PM

Originally Posted by argotom

If we trade him, then maybe we can get a 1st round pick let's say from the Riders or RB?

OK, so you would be satisfied with a first-round pick for a Hall of Fame QB? Even though the five years from 2009-2013 would suggest that there is at best about a 12% chance of getting a star player in the first round? And you'd send Ricky Ray to a division rival that is currently tied with us for first place and might meet us in the playoffs?

And you'd be willing to go into the rest of the season with Gale and McPherson as our QB insurance policy? And you think a trade of a starting-calibre QB during the season is actually possible?

**argotom** · 07-26-2015, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by paulwoods13

OK, so you would be satisfied with a first-round pick for a Hall of Fame QB? Even though the five years from 2009-2013 would suggest that there is at best about a 12% chance of getting a star player in the first round? And you'd send Ricky Ray to a division rival that is currently tied with us for first place and might meet us in the playoffs?

He definitively will be a Hall of Famer.
I am presuming teams will give up a possible 1st rounder, sure if we can get a starter that would be better.
But, let's be honest with a shoulder surgery for a QB, who is to say he will ever be the same again?
Maybe there will be no takers from teams, as they may view RR as damaged goods.
In a perfect world you would not want to trade him and let him retire an Argo.
If he wants to continue then the teams hands are tied.
With a small 9 team league, there are limited possibilities for a trade.

**AngeloV** · 07-26-2015, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by bluto

seeing a poster discuss what team may be able to make a trade for Ray this season pretty much makes that poster one i can skip past when skimming the forums

But it's so much more fun to call him out. Especially when that same poster saw enough of Harris in his one and only start last year to determine he wasn't that good.

**paulwoods13** · 07-26-2015, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by argotom

With a small 9 team league, there are limited possibilities for a trade.

Ya think?

**Argo57** · 07-26-2015, 09:22 PM

Originally Posted by argotom

He definitively will be a Hall of Famer.
I am presuming teams will give up a possible 1st rounder, sure if we can get a starter that would be better.
But, let's be honest with a shoulder surgery for a QB, who is to say he will ever be the same again?
Maybe there will be no takers from teams, as they may view RR as damaged goods.
In a perfect world you would not want to trade him and let him retire an Argo.
If he wants to continue then the teams hands are tied.
With a small 9 team league, there are limited possibilities for a trade.

Wouldn't trade him period Tom, as has been mentioned ad nauseum having Ray return to the active roster is a huge bonus for the Argos, having a "2 headed monster" at QB will worry our opposition and be the envy of the CFL.
Play it out this season, if Ray plays well when he returns then work to keep both guys next season.

**argotom** · 07-26-2015, 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by Argo57

Wouldn't trade him period Tom, as has been mentioned ad nauseum having Ray return to the active roster is a huge bonus for the Argos, having a "2 headed monster" at QB will worry our opposition and be the envy of the CFL.
Play it out this season, if Ray plays well when he returns then work to keep both guys next season.

I am not against that either, providing the cap does not take a major hit.
Ricky's contract would have to reflect back up money.
Unless he does a complete 180, Harris is my first stringer going forward.
He has earned it.

**Rich** · 07-26-2015, 11:52 PM

Originally Posted by argotom

If we trade him, then maybe we can get a 1st round pick let's say from the Riders or RB?

Jerome Messam would look awfully good in Durie's slot right now. He would make the Harris offence virtually unstoppable.

Originally Posted by AngeloV

You can easily find a way to pay each in the 300k neighbourhood.

You seem to think Harris is some kind of hayseed who wouldn't be interested in maximizing his salary. He's been the best QB in the league up to this point. If he maintains this level of play someone will make him an offer to make him the highest-paid QB in the league. Is it going to be the Argos or will it be someone else?

If the Argos let Harris walk it will be the biggest mistake in the history of the franchise, given the importance of the next couple of seasons.

**PullTogether73** · 07-26-2015, 11:53 PM

After watching Kevin Glenn get pounded into injury tonight by the Tiger-cats aggressive defence, I wouldn't trade Ray or Harris until after the Labour Day rematch game, which would be RR's second game this season according to recent reports.