November 15, 2015: Toronto Argonauts vs. Hamilton Tiger-Cats

[argotom]

I agree 100% with you in wanting wins and being frustrated with losses. It just seems that when they do lose, you go right for Ray and ignore all the other million things that went wrong. I too want the best personnel on the field, but the problem extends way beyond Ray.

Agreed.
Do we also agree the team should have scored more points and won this game going away?
Part of that will fall on Waters for sure.

[R.J]

I can't help but think if Harris was in and lost you and several others would be all over him and me for supporting such a decision.
Unlike you, I take no pleasure in RR starting and losing.

You took no pleasure in Ray starting in the first place, would've made no difference even if he won.

Love to see Brady punted wayyyyyyyyy out of town - guy has no clue as an OC; and wouldn't be disappointed to see Millanovich & Barker go with him; but oops - already signed these football geniuses to extensions eh?

Big thumbs up from me if Brady gets punted. I'd keep Barker, I know you're not a fan of his, but IMO Barker finds talent, it's even more impressive considering he does with what I'd call "interns" as his assistants and on a shoestring budget. I'd keep Milanovich, I think he's a pretty good head coach and add in all the outside circumstances that no other CFL has to face and I think Milo deserves some credit. However, we need to get away from his offense period, I've stated before if Milo isn't willing to bring in a new offense, I'd be happy to see him gone. I don't think I can watch or be willing to continue buying tickets if I have to watch that pathetic offense.

Unlike you, I have no agenda I want this team to win with the best possible personnel.

Wait what ?
If this were true, then you wouldn't have an issue with Ray starting/playing over Harris. Harris is not better than Ray.

The Argos are a good team but not a championship-calibre team at this point. Anyway, a new era for the franchise will start in December and I believe that we will see an improved team with a chance to win the Grey Cup at home next year.

New era starts January 1st 2016, that's when the new owners take over.


As for the game, sloppy by both teams, Hamilton just made less key mistakes. I hope people stop calling Waters the best kicker in the league now, punter maybe, but no way he's the best placekicker. The toss where Bates and Spencer collided was on the receivers not Ray, have no idea how either of them didn't see each other. Ray played okay, but the play calling was atrocious at times. I'm going to regret saying this, because knowing my luck it won't end up happening, but I hope Brady leaves for Winnipeg in the off season, even if Himebauch becomes becomes the new OC, which would probably lead to Preston becoming the O line coach, I'm just really tired of Brady's conservative approach.

One big positive this game was Whitaker, I thought he played a heckeva game and loved it when he scored the TD, he acted "like he's been there before", a true pro. I thought the defense played okay, but when you're facing the #4 qb of a team, I expect better play. Still some issues and holes on D that will hopefully be filled by better personnel in the off season. The Argos have to find a way to win at Tim Hortons Field and hopefully our new home becomes the place of dominance for the Argonauts. I for one am excited for January 1st and beyond.

[larz-7]

i have to admit this had to be the most frustrating loss of the year.

[R.J]

If we had Dikka, we would've won.

[OV Argo]

Oh, OK, now we know it's true.

Yeah, it is true, and bottom line is there is ZERO excuse for this to have happened; and Harris may have fared worse with an idiot for an OC /HC They just needed a FG to tie the game late so why not use a simple play to get the ball a few yards closer to make FG kicks into the wind? Still have to go back to Ray not seeing a wide-open Gurley for an easy TD in the first half ??? - instead he checks down - WTF ??? A stiff of a rookie QB at least saw a wide-open receiver for an easy Ticat deep ball TD.


I hope some are willing to consider big changes are needed on this team; some roster improvements for sure, but IMO the coaching is just horrible & clueless. Barker, Millanovich and Brady will all be welcomed back no doubt with the excuse/hope that a new home stadium will be some big cure for stupid football.

[ArgofanIan]

I am not dumping on this team... we just needed one more call or catch or play to go our way..... and we would have won today..... The east is very good at this time... the next few years we are going to have to be great to get out of the east.... but definitely loosing to Hamilton is a tough way to end the season.... Go ARGOS

[Neely2005]

Unlike you, I have no agenda I want this team to win with the best possible personnel.
You obviously see no point to evaluate, however most of us here do see the need to review the reasons for the loss and the team going forward.

What exactly is my agenda then?

We're all well aware of yours.

[Argo57]

Totally agree. The Argos needed more than anything today to avoid stupid mistakes and they just couldn't. Spencer - who played a great game - and Bates colliding with each other on what looked like a TD pass and Owens dropping a perfect pass late will sting this entire off-season. Then you had Owusu-Ansah slip in the 3rd quarter and Banks' return in the 4th quarter combined with Rolle's facemasking penalty which gave Masoli instant field position inside the Toronto 30 after the Argos had just given up a safety. Waters couldn't recover his own punt in the first quarter and Wright had the costly roughing the passer penalty in the 4th. I know I am just rehashing much of what has already been written but the Argos should not have lost and they managed to lose it. I felt so good when it was 18-6 late in the third quarter and the Argos had the Ticats pinned at their 22 yard line. I thought that the Argos were about ready to put them away. I really hope Ottawa slaughters Hamilton next week.

The Argonauts have proven time after time they have no clue how to put any opponent away when they have the chance.

[Argo]

Haven't read other posts yet. I was at the game and saw the team gloriously snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Of course it won't happen anytime soon, but I'd really like to see the Milanovich era end in Toronto, along with whatever attendant change in the coaching staff that might cause.

[1argoholic]

Milanovich has stressed from day one in Toronto that he was going to have teams play a brand of football without a ton of penalties. Well that hasn't worked in the least. I'm not into firing Barker or Milanovich but we need to take a hard look at coaches and filling some holes on the team. We need some guys to return. You can't play with a crap load of rookies starting and expect to win the cup. Today Ray had two big talented targets missing and Bates really hasn't played much. Most of the guys haven't played with Ricky much so it is what it is. Ray still has game and somehow I'd like to see both him and Harris back. I'd like to see if that rookie qb we signed to the practice roster late in the year can develop. He by all accounts was a great passer and runner in college.

Now the fun and disappointment awaits with the off season. Always cool to see who's back, who's new and obviously losing great talents sucks.


Go Stamps Go!!!!

[timlb01]

I think the Head Coach and GM are fine. No changes required. Bottom line is the same problem occurred today that occurred all season. Bad penalties, bad special teams i.e. kicking and punt/kick return coverage. I don't understand why the defence strategy seemed to change late in the 3rd and 4th quarter. Why the hell did we not bring the house and destroy Masoli and CJ.

All season we never blew any team out. Never took a massive lead and showed we could finish a team off. Massive changes are not necessary imo. Bring in upgrades to special team coaching and offensive coordinator. Personnel wise the secondary and offensive line needs some work. I am against whole sale changes as it destroyes continuity which has occurred every year under the Barker regime.

Shame as this game was for us to win all the way. On a side note I hate the roughing the passer calls. How can that last call be called. I know it has been consistent all season but I hate the call. It is brutal. Rushing as hard as you can and you are shoved and cannot stop your momentum from hitting the QB. It is one crap penalty. I am not complaining that the call was made as it was very consistent all year but I hate the way the rule is written!

Next year will be easier to evaluate the entire organization as there will be none of the crazy outside issues any longer such as no practice facility, not knowing where your next game will be played, cost cutting issues etc. Lets not panic.... the teams core is not bad.

Let's also not forget how many great coordinators have left the team over the past 3 years. These guys are not easy to replace. Imagine if we still had O'Shea, Chris Jones.... maybe kept Jason Maas as our O-coordinator instead of Brady. May have been different as well.

[Argo57]

Yeah, it is true, and bottom line is there is ZERO excuse for this to have happened; and Harris may have fared worse with an idiot for an OC /HC They just needed a FG to tie the game late so why not use a simple play to get the ball a few yards closer to make FG kicks into the wind? Still have to go back to Ray not seeing a wide-open Gurley for an easy TD in the first half ??? - instead he checks down - WTF ??? A stiff of a rookie QB at least saw a wide-open receiver for an easy Ticat deep ball TD.


I hope some are willing to consider big changes are needed on this team; some roster improvements for sure, but IMO the coaching is just horrible & clueless. Barker, Millanovich and Brady will all be welcomed back no doubt with the excuse/hope that a new home stadium will be some big cure for stupid football.

I have been a Milanovich supporter since his arrival but sitting watching the Argonauts play out the same old script today has me leaning towards taking a new direction and approach, quite frankly the current Argonaut landscape has become rather stale and frustrating!
The new venue won't mean much if the on field product and results don't improve next season.

[Will]

For a team that has won the most Grey Cups in history the Argos have quite a history of spectacular playoff failures, and this has got to rank high on that list. I know Masoli (a fourth stringer) didn't really do anything per se to lead the Ticats to victory, but the fact he was allowed to do so is still so typical 2015 Toronto Argonauts. The team gave up close to 150 rushing yards all of this against a team that you know wasn't going to be able to put together much of a passing game and they still allowed it to happen. It's like something just snapped in the Ticat offense after the Argos scored to make it 18-6 in the 3rd quarter, and that was that.

At least the Argos were afforded a win at IWS once in a blue moon.

[Fumblitis]

The Argos big downfall was the points left on the field today. Those two missed field goals were killer.

[R.J]

http://www.argonauts.ca/video/index/id/119877

[ArgoFan1]

Coaching, play calling is what doomed the Argos today. What on Earth was McPherson doing in there for several series??? Is Harris hurt or was the coach trying to put him in his place?? You don't do that when you have such an up and coming star quarterback on your team. Totally Milanovich's responsibility there. Other bad coaching decision was not play Kackert. He got handed the ball ONCE in the entire game. Total absurdity. Either the play calling, or Ricky Ray's lack of ability meant nothing but two yard passes. I am so sick and tired of watching check down throws, as the first option. Very sick and tired of that. No other team throws as many two yard passes as the Argos. They had to go down field a lot more than they did to win this game. What difference did it make that we had some receivers out.... especially when you don't throw to anyone in the first place.

There was one play also where Ricky was scrambling and had to run up the field. I looked out at all the Argo receivers and none of them were even 20 yards up field and worst of all, not one of them was even moving. They were all just standing and watching Ricky. Not one had made a move to get open. I guess after you run 30 routes and the ball gets dumped off for a one yard gain for all of them, you figure there is no urgency to actually run. Who knows?

Comes down to the game being lost because of two missed field goals in the end and one bad penalty..... but it was the total lack of any offensive scheme that did them in.
We should have won this game handily. Now I have to wait 7 months to see the Argos play again. No trip to Ottawa next week for me now.

[ArgoRavi]

For a team that has won the most Grey Cups in history the Argos have quite a history of spectacular playoff failures, and this has got to rank high on that list. I know Masoli (a fourth stringer) didn't really do anything per se to lead the Ticats to victory, but the fact he was allowed to do so is still so typical 2015 Toronto Argonauts. The team gave up close to 150 rushing yards all of this against a team that you know wasn't going to be able to put together much of a passing game and they still allowed it to happen. It's like something just snapped in the Ticat offense after the Argos scored to make it 18-6 in the 3rd quarter, and that was that.

At least the Argos were afforded a win at IWS once in a blue moon.

When you said that the Ticats rushed for 150 yards, I was surprised as I thought that the Argos did a good job of shutting them down until late 3rd quarter. In fact, I really only recall two drives where Hamilton seemed to get any kind of substantial yardage along the ground which was their two TD drives - one of which started at the Toronto 33. Looking at the stats, the Ticats had 148 rushing yards but it took 28 carries to accumulate that. There are a lot of reasons the Argos lost today but I don't necessarily rate rush defence all that high on the list.

Coaching, play calling is what doomed the Argos today. What on Earth was McPherson doing in there for several series??? Is Harris hurt or was the coach trying to put him in his place?? You don't do that when you have such an up and coming star quarterback on your team. Totally Milanovich's responsibility there. Other bad coaching decision was not play Kackert. He got handed the ball ONCE in the entire game. Total absurdity. Either the play calling, or Ricky Ray's lack of ability meant nothing but two yard passes. I am so sick and tired of watching check down throws, as the first option. Very sick and tired of that. No other team throws as many two yard passes as the Argos. They had to go down field a lot more than they did to win this game. What difference did it make that we had some receivers out.... especially when you don't throw to anyone in the first place.

There was one play also where Ricky was scrambling and had to run up the field. I looked out at all the Argo receivers and none of them were even 20 yards up field and worst of all, not one of them was even moving. They were all just standing and watching Ricky. Not one had made a move to get open. I guess after you run 30 routes and the ball gets dumped off for a one yard gain for all of them, you figure there is no urgency to actually run. Who knows?

Comes down to the game being lost because of two missed field goals in the end and one bad penalty..... but it was the total lack of any offensive scheme that did them in.
We should have won this game handily. Now I have to wait 7 months to see the Argos play again. No trip to Ottawa next week for me now.

I actually thought that putting McPherson in with a running package, which the Argos hadn't done all season, was quite a good move and one that worked effectively when they used it. The offence is what it is. It relies on the short passing game but, overall, has been quite productive over the past four years. I agree though that some tweaking may be necessary as the Argos could never quite solve Hamilton's defence this year - although I thought they were okay offensively today - and Montreal's defence has consistently given them trouble too. As for not using Kackert, I don't have a problem with that as Whitaker was quite effective and there wasn't really a place to use Kackert. BTW, I noticed the blocking job that Whitaker did today and it was quite phenomenal. He is still a terrific back.

[AngeloV]

My 2 cents on today....

This game was lost on the poor play of the O-line, plain and simple. Keeping and Holmes in particular had really rough games. There is no way that Keeping should have been pushed back as far as he was on a 3 man rush.
People can also complain about lack of discipline, but when I see things called sometimes and not others, it's really hard to fault players sometimes. The RTP penalty on Wright was absolutely a blown call. He jumped up to try and knock down the pass, and was then pushed while he was in the air to the ground. How an official saw otherwise, tells me he didn't see the play in its entirety and just guessed as to what happened. That can not happen. League really needs to get officials that have a feel for the sport.

Overall, I thought the D played well. They sure did a better job against Masoli than Ottawa did last week. Jones and Greenwood were absolute beasts. It was a shame that Owusu-Ansah fell on Grant's TD, because Grant had to wait for the ball, and I'm sure he would have broken it up, if not picked the underthrown ball.

Anyone that believes QBing cost the Argos the game, simply doesn't get football.
Sure wasn't his fault that Spencer and Bates were in the same spot to take away a TD pass, nor was it his fault that Owens couldn't hang on to the ball on first down before the game tying field goal. Would have kept the drive going for perhaps a winning TD, or at the very least kill the remaining clock before kicking the FG.

Ray was excellent, and should be re-signed as the starter again for next year.

Whitaker was damn good today too, and hopefully people will give it a rest as to why Kackert isn't playing ahead of him.

[argolio]

I can't help but think if Harris was in and lost you and several others would be all over him and me for supporting such a decision.
Unlike you, I take no pleasure in RR starting and losing.

If Harris had started and played a similar game, I would have said he played like a warrior, and gave his team a legitimate chance to win the game. And I wouldn't have said RR should have played.

When you said that the Ticats rushed for 150 yards, I was surprised as I thought that the Argos did a good job of shutting them down until late 3rd quarter. In fact, I really only recall two drives where Hamilton seemed to get any kind of substantial yardage along the ground which was their two TD drives - one of which started at the Toronto 33. Looking at the stats, the Ticats had 148 rushing yards but it took 28 carries to accumulate that. There are a lot of reasons the Argos lost today but I don't necessarily rate rush defence all that high on the list.

After the Ticats went to a faster tempo, their running game took off. They made an adjustment and we had no answer. One could argue that was the turning point of the game, or a turning point since it's hard to identify a specific one in this game.

[R.J]

The RTP penalty on Wright was absolutely a blown call. He jumped up to try and knock down the pass, and was then pushed while he was in the air to the ground. How an official saw otherwise, tells me he didn't see the play in its entirety and just guessed as to what happened. That can not happen. League really needs to get officials that have a feel for the sport.

Whitaker was damn good today too, and hopefully people will give it a rest as to why Kackert isn't playing ahead of him.

Agreed on both counts.