November 15, 2015: Toronto Argonauts vs. Hamilton Tiger-Cats

[R.J]

In the last 3 games when did Ray show he was better than Harris??

So instead of answering the question, probably because you can't, your only course of action is to ask me the reversal question ? Bravo.
I'll bite, Ray didn't play overly well at any time when he was playing, but Harris clearly hit a wall. Harris is not better than Ray, how anyone can honestly think that is beyond me and considering no one actually has said it says a lot IMO. Ray isn't 100% healthy, so again why not wait for when he is, before people say he's done. Harris played relatively well, as I've said before, he's a capable above average starter, but he's close to or has hit his sealing. Having been spoiled with Ray and Collaros, I expect Toronto's starter to be as good if not better than those two, of which Harris isn't and I doubt ever will be. The only things Harris is "better" than Ray at is he's 7 years younger, Ray just turned 36 last month, not sure why people keep saying he's 37 and Harris is more mobile, but people act like Ray was super mobile before this season. People act like Harris is a scrambler or something, like Collaros is, but the fact is Harris is a pocket QB just like Ray.

[AngeloV]

Bishop was the best thing since sliced bread: just not for very long.



The O line is the bedrock of a football team, and the Argos' was indeed, yet again, a problem.
Without rehashing my concerns, I'd like to see Ray and Harris both return in genuine open competition from the get-go, if their intentions and economics permit. If not, c'est la vie, move on.
As for Milanovich et al... all or almost all will return. So let's see if the same philosophy and coaching leads to a different result in a banner year - 2016 - where there really should not be any excuses whatsoever.

Very fair comments.

To use your own words, this is a moronic opinion. Ray showed his age, and it will only get worse. He is getting slower, and we need a QB who can use his feet to avoid the pass rush. On that count, Ray makes Harris look like Donovan Bailey.

Man are you good a cherry picking. You go away for weeks at a time, then conveniently come back to stress a point when it's convenient for you. You were no where to be seen around here when Harris was an MOP candidate, then when he hits the wall, you come back with an "I told you so".

In the last 3 games when did Ray show he was better than Harris??

Look at Harris' 2 starts in Hamilton (he actually really struggled in all 4 including Calgary and Montreal) and compare them to Ray yesterday. Not even close when comparing equal opponents. Ray was better.

[Antwon]

So instead of answering the question, probably because you can't, your only course of action is to ask me the reversal question ? Bravo.
I'll bite, Ray didn't play overly well at any time when he was playing, but Harris clearly hit a wall. Harris is not better than Ray, how anyone can honestly think that is beyond me and considering no one actually has said it says a lot IMO. Ray isn't 100% healthy, so again why not wait for when he is, before people say he's done. Harris played relatively well, as I've said before, he's a capable above average starter, but he's close to or has hit his sealing. Having been spoiled with Ray and Collaros, I expect Toronto's starter to be as good if not better than those two, of which Harris isn't and I doubt ever will be. The only things Harris is "better" than Ray at is he's 7 years younger, Ray just turned 36 last month, not sure why people keep saying he's 37 and Harris is more mobile, but people act like Ray was super mobile before this season. People act like Harris is a scrambler or something, like Collaros is, but the fact is Harris is a pocket QB just like Ray.

Good points. But if Ray is not 100% how do you know he will be next year? And how do you know for sure Harris has hit his peak? Bring them both back and see what happens!

[paulwoods13]

In the last 3 games when did Ray show he was better than Harris??

He was better than Harris was in Harris's last three games. Harris had 13 mostly outstanding games but his last three starts were not good enough. Ray's start yesterday was good enough to win if any one of five or six teammates hadn't done something incredibly stupid or incredibly unlucky. I'd like both guys back, and I'd like Harris to win the starting job. But based on evidence over the last six weeks, Ricky is better right now.

[argotom]

He was better than Harris was in Harris's last three games. Harris had 13 mostly outstanding games but his last three starts were not good enough. Ray's start yesterday was good enough to win if any one of five or six teammates hadn't done something incredibly stupid or incredibly unlucky. I'd like both guys back, and I'd like Harris to win the starting job. But based on evidence over the last six weeks, Ricky is better right now.

This is all a matter of opinion.
Upon reviewing, the majority here I would say do not agree with your opinion.
We all know sometimes stats do not tell the entire story.
Sure you mention and correct how 5 or 6 teammates were complicit, but you can also throw in Ray as in addition for some of the "stupid things" he did as have been mentioned throughout.
I have read today in the various print with a good number saying how Harris should be the QB for next year and how likely he should have started yesterday.

[paulwoods13]

This is all a matter of opinion.
Upon reviewing, the majority here I would say do not agree with your opinion.
We all know sometimes stats do not tell the entire story.
Sure you mention and correct how 5 or 6 teammates were complicit, but you can also throw in Ray as in addition for some of the "stupid things" he did as have been mentioned throughout.
I have read today in the various print with a good number saying how Harris should be the QB for next year and how likely he should have started yesterday.

Yes, it is all a matter of opinion, as is the contention that the "majority" of posters here feel one way or another. I see a debate that has strong proponents on both sides, and no predominant view.

Ricky made one demonstrable mistake yesterday when he failed to throw to a wide-open Gurley. Other than that, I didn't see any mistakes comparable to Foley's RTP penalty, Rolle's penalty, Waters missing two FGs and failing to grab the bouncing punt, Owens dropping a pass that could have led to a game-winning TD, and Bates getting in the way of primary receivers twice at the goal line (once Owens managed to catch the pass anyway). I chalk up Owusu-Ansah and Wright to bad luck, not stupidity.

If there are a "good number" of print reporters saying Harris should be the QB next year, I'd love to see links supporting this. I saw some wondering who it will be given the FA situation, but no one suggesting it has to be Harris. Not even Zicarelli.

[timlb01]

He was better than Harris was in Harris's last three games. Harris had 13 mostly outstanding games but his last three starts were not good enough. Ray's start yesterday was good enough to win if any one of five or six teammates hadn't done something incredibly stupid or incredibly unlucky. I'd like both guys back, and I'd like Harris to win the starting job. But based on evidence over the last six weeks, Ricky is better right now.

I tend to agree with your comments. In order to win now it was the right thing to go with Ray. Was Ray perfect, far from it but better or safer than Harris. I hope they are both back next year or we sign Doug Flutie again

[OV Argo]

I'd like to see both Harris and Ray back at QB for the Argos next season; hopefully the team wants both of them back and they are glad to be there and willing to compete with AND help each other out - you know, for the TEAM.

I love Ricky Ray as a QB: one of the all-time CFL greats IMO, especially in terms of poise, vision and accuracy; also under-rated in terms of some decent mobility for a bigger tall QB - could move & buy time in the pocket and was (once) smart & athletic enough to run for 1st downs when the opening was there.

However - have to wonder if he has faded just a bit or enough in terms of QB skills so that he is just not the great CFL QB he once was? Still real pissed-off about yesterday's loss and I'm not blaming Ray; yet i recall a similar feeling after the 2013 play-off loss - Ray just missed opportunities to step-up and be a great big play / play-off QB and lead/will his team to a win - made some poor throws when it mattered late in the game; and yesterday - missed seeing a wide-open Gurley for an easy TD in the first half, and also could not pull the trigger on more intermediate to deep throws throughout the game; certainly not his fault that Owens dropped a pass he should have caught, or that 2 young receivers made a big mistake in running into each other, but - maybe his arm is not healed enough (and may never be back to 100%) or maybe his receivers could not get open enough, and the play-calls were not smart; not sure he can run anymore and maybe he likes that lame-o CFL checkdown shite but sorry - I just expect more out of a QB who has been so outstanding in the past - maybe he could have just called his own plays in key drive situations and told a clown like Brady to shut-up?

Like I said - hope Ray is back as an Argo and he could still have a great season, but I'm not sure anymore. I like Harris too - good young QB who should continue to learn & improve and maybe become a top notch starter - he sure looked like it at times this season.

[Ballstothewall]

Ray never had a strong arm, but he is accurate and know how to lob the ball over the defender and into the Recivers hands. However if Rays shoulder is the best it is going to be, then there us no question. Ray is done. His mechanics and throwing motion looked terrible. He had no zip on the ball, with Recivers having to stop, slow down or come back for the ball ( yes I know some plays are designed for that) but if anyone thinks you can be a pro QB with throwing the ball like he did Sunday, your nuts. Now perhaps the offseason will provide him some good rehab and he can come back, only time will tell. I think Ray would make a great QB coach if he can't play anymore

[Wobbler]

I didn't see that at all. Ray may have misjudged the strength on a couple of throws, but I think that could be attributed to rust. I'll have to watch a game from last year to be sure, but his mechanics certainly didn't seem terrible.

[ArgoRavi]

I didn't see that at all. Ray may have misjudged the strength on a couple of throws, but I think that could be attributed to rust. I'll have to watch a game from last year to be sure, but his mechanics certainly didn't seem terrible.

Ray wasn't 100% last year either which is why he had the shoulder surgery immediately after the season. From all that he has said recently, it sounds like he was a bit better at the end of this season than he was at the end of last year but still not 100%. Supposedly, the doctor (the famed Dr. Andrews, I believe) has told him that he will be 100% for next season. I agree, Wobbler, that his mechanics seemed fine. And, yes, he missed one read but I think too much is being made of that. Even the best QBs will make those mistakes on occasion and even moreso when it is only your third start of the season.

[Wobbler]

That error is getting so much attention because Suitor highlighted it on TV. I don't think it's any more complicated than that. As you said, Ravi, even the greats miss some reads.

[argofan81]

Now I've heard it all.....Argos tried to cheat during the game?!?! Hahaha.

Marshall ferguson from TSN 1150 is reporting that Argos tried to cheat and Hamilton had to change their offensive calls during the game as a result....another tweeter accused Stala of spying

Here's his tweet from during the game

#Ticats receivers currently in process of changing audible hand signals on sideline. Very upset Argos knew them on the last drive #CFL

[Gill The Thrill]

Now I've heard it all.....Argos tried to cheat during the game?!?! Hahaha.

Marshall ferguson from TSN 1150 is reporting that Argos tried to cheat and Hamilton had to change their offensive calls during the game as a result....another tweeter accused Stala of spying

Here's his tweet from during the game

#Ticats receivers currently in process of changing audible hand signals on sideline. Very upset Argos knew them on the last drive #CFL

Heard that also. That's not cheating, it's pro football...don't be stupid and use signals everybody knows. It's the same as in baseball, if the catcher is stupid enough to show his signals when an opponent is standing on 2nd base.

"If you're not cheating, you're not trying." -- Al Davis

On another point, Thank God for TSN radio 1150 Hamilton. I think we just heard the score on most of the Toronto sports stations after the post-game show. At least Marsh and Milton are treating the CFL like an actual pro sports league that does get thousands of fans out to watch their games. It's a miracle that it does get the amount of people watching live and on TV, even in Toronto when you realize how little pre and post game coverage their is.

[AngeloV]

On another point, Thank God for TSN radio 1150 Hamilton. I think we just heard the score on most of the Toronto sports stations after the post-game show. At least Marsh and Milton are treating the CFL like an actual pro sports league that does get thousands of fans out to watch their games. It's a miracle that it does get the amount of people watching live and on TV, even in Toronto when you realize how little pre and post game coverage their is.

Agree with you big time on this. They do a great job covering the Cats. And I realize it is the only pro sports team in the city now that the AHL team moved, but there really should be room on any sports station for their city's 140+ year old pro football team...especially now that the parent company owns them. If it wasn't for Hogie, the Argos wouldn't get any time on the station. Really hoping this changes in 2016.

[1argoholic]

I guess we need to all take a deep breath, step back and wait to see what Barker comes up with and decides in regard to the players for next year. I have gained a good amount of respect for him with how he keeps having to basically retool a team year in and year out. No way this team should have won 10 games with the amount of turnover and key injuries. We played five rookie receivers at various times and all showed to be very capable. When's the last time any team has done that. Now the turnover on D and the secondary wasn't terrific but the guys were all learning on the fly. I really hope we can keep and grow our offense with some O line tweaking and perhaps find some young strong new blood at rb. If this team could win 10 and we don't lose a boat load of talent we should be ok with some solid tweaks.

[Will]

Heard that also. That's not cheating, it's pro football...don't be stupid and use signals everybody knows. It's the same as in baseball, if the catcher is stupid enough to show his signals when an opponent is standing on 2nd base.

"If you're not cheating, you're not trying." -- Al Davis

Yet the Argos still found a f***ing way to lose

[Double Dare]

Now I've heard it all.....Argos tried to cheat during the game?!?! Hahaha.

Marshall ferguson from TSN 1150 is reporting that Argos tried to cheat and Hamilton had to change their offensive calls during the game as a result....another tweeter accused Stala of spying

Probably because he was still mad about this:

Saw @StalaDave outside stadium, his truck still wet from the car wash. Egged overnight. 1 more reason to love this city #HamOnt @Ticats @CFL

— Peter Dyakowski (@PeterDyakowski) November 15, 2015

[argolio]

I have read today in the various print with a good number saying how Harris should be the QB for next year and how likely he should have started yesterday.

So you're claiming there's a long list of media people who said Harris should have started on Sunday? Sounds like you pulled this out of your butt.

[Will]

I have read today in the various print with a good number saying how Harris should be the QB for next year and how likely he should have started yesterday.

That's all well and good, but if you don't post the articles that state this...