Holloway vs. Clements

[doubleblue]

Clements was 6 feet tall and Holloway was listed at 5`10`. There are guys as productive as they were coming out of the NCAA. Bo-Levi Mitchell is one of, if not has the best Won-loss record to start a QB career in the CFL and that is directly coming out of NCAA without playing in the NFL. Not that playing in the NFL is a guarantee to being successful in the CFL. Ask the myriad of QB`s that have bombed in the CFL after starting games in the NFL.

Well there is a difference in what players are listed at and what they really are. Having stood beside many players over the years it is obvious players height and sometimes weights are exaggerated. I'm not 6 feet tall but if Tommy Clements was listed at 6' 0 then I will claim to be that to. Mitchell is 6'0 easily.
There are also a lot of 6'0 Linemen listed at 6'2 as well as guys that are 6'2 listed at 6'4, and so on. They even listed Pinball a couple of inches taller than he is.
We are all guilty of wanting to be thought of as taller than we are. But the main thing is can "they play" no matter what height they are.

[Rich]

Hec Pothier and Bill Stevenson (among other Eskimos) each won five Grey Cups in a row as starters. How come no one ever credits them with the wins? Yet Moon gets credited for three and Wilkinson for two (one in relief).

Why does hockey credit goalies with wins? Why does baseball credit pitchers with wins? Because they're the most impactful positions in their respective sports. And it could be argued that a QB has more importance to a football team then goalies or pitchers have in their respective sports.

[paulwoods13]

Except that a QB can play terrible and his team can still win: see Michael Bishop's "11-win" season. That can't really happen in hockey, and is extremely rare in baseball.

[Will]

Except that a QB can play terrible and his team can still win: see Michael Bishop's "11-win" season. That can't really happen in hockey, and is extremely rare in baseball.

See: Morris, Jack

[AngeloV]

Except that a QB can play terrible and his team can still win: see Michael Bishop's "11-win" season. That can't really happen in hockey, and is extremely rare in baseball.

To be fair, Bishop was pretty good for the majority of that season, and was great before getting injured in a blowout win against Calgary. He just couldn't sustain that over the remainder of his career.

See: Morris, Jack

Jack Morris was a great pitcher. Overall stats really influence perception, but he was the type of pitcher that pitched to the situation. If his team only scored 2 runs, that is when he would give up only 1. If he was spotted a big lead, his attitude was to put the ball in play. If it mean giving up a run here or there for outs, in the end, he didn't care if he won 7-6 or 7-1.

[OV Argo]

Except that a QB can play terrible and his team can still win: see Michael Bishop's "11-win" season. That can't really happen in hockey, and is extremely rare in baseball.

I don't mind football putting out QB wins stats, but I'd agree a goalie in hockey or a pitcher in baseball might often rate a "win" more. Those are still team games too, and mediocre goalie or pitcher performance resulting in TEAM wins happens a lot more than you are suggesting IMO.

Football is the ultimate team sport IMO - very large playing surface, and so many different & specific positions or at least position groups - QB is just one of many on offence and is the most specific and centre-stage. Then there are a bunch of other positions on defence, plus kickers and ST specialists. And Canadian football - with the huge playing surface, and 12 men on the field - is IMO the (potentially anyways) most complex and ultimate team sport out there.

The QB rating system used in football is IMO one of the biggest joke stats used in sports and basically meaningless to me - does not factor in all sorts of QB play variables (like rushing yards or "wins") and way too much emphasis on TD/INT ratio. I'd suggest QBs rate or earn a win when the offence they lead scores the deciding points in the game - take away defensive scores, and also points off turn-overs that occurred inside say the other team's 30 yard line (gimme sort of FG range). There isn't going to be a perfect QB rating system for a team game like football. I still go by an overall sense of how the QB plays with intangibles - decision making smarts, leadership, etc. - being factors, but stats - passing yards, completion %, TD vs, INTs and rushing yards are very meaningful too IMO.

[argolio]

Hec Pothier and Bill Stevenson (among other Eskimos) each won five Grey Cups in a row as starters. How come no one ever credits them with the wins? Yet Moon gets credited for three and Wilkinson for two (one in relief).

Wilkinson was better than Moon!

Jack Morris was a great pitcher. Overall stats really influence perception, but he was the type of pitcher that pitched to the situation. If his team only scored 2 runs, that is when he would give up only 1. If he was spotted a big lead, his attitude was to put the ball in play. If it mean giving up a run here or there for outs, in the end, he didn't care if he won 7-6 or 7-1.

Baseball analysis?? Who are you, and what have you done with the real AV?

[AngeloV]

Baseball analysis?? Who are you, and what have you done with the real AV?

Hey, I liked baseball at one time. That's why I can only give references from before 1990.