Holloway vs. Clements

[OV Argo]

Never did I question that they could not be as good. I said calling them wayyyyyy better was a joke.

OK - is way better good enough then?

I've heard you here put down Tom Clements as a QB often, yet Holloway is obviously one of your heroes. I find the notion that Holloway was a better QB than Clements a bit of a joke, but you didn't find me jumping all over your opinion there - to each his own; if somebody called either of those excellent QBs a bum or lousy QBs that's a different story and they should be challenged on it; I didn't say Lemon was a bum or useless, just that Whiteside and Capicotti were easily way(yyy) better at DE with Ottawa last season.

[AngeloV]

OK - is way better good enough then?

I've heard you here put down Tom Clements as a QB often, yet Holloway is obviously one of your heroes. I find the notion that Holloway was a better QB than Clements a bit of a joke, but you didn't find me jumping all over your opinion there - to each his own; if somebody called either of those excellent QBs a bum or lousy QBs that's a different story and they should be challenged on it; I didn't say Lemon was a bum or useless, just that Whiteside and Capicotti were easily way(yyy) better at DE with Ottawa last season.

OK, that is fine. But like I said, their winning percentage was considerably better after Lemon went into the line-up. And yes, I have put down Tom Clements on here many times. Not because he wasn't good, but because I don't think he was as good as he is portrayed to have been. The only time in his career he played on a team without top notch talent was in Hamilton, and he pretty much got booed out of town there. He wasn't very good. He also likely should have played in more than 1 Grey Cup on that talent filled Bombers team he QB's from 83-87...even losing at home in the eastern final to a Gilbert Renfroe led Argos team in which they were heavy favourites in '87, and put up....what was it..3 whole points in that game?

I can go on, but why bring up losing in back to back playoff years in in 81-82 vs. a pair of 5-11 Ottawa teams. Maybe he just sucked when it mattered?

[OV Argo]

OK, that is fine. But like I said, their winning percentage was considerably better after Lemon went into the line-up. And yes, I have put down Tom Clements on here many times. Not because he wasn't good, but because I don't think he was as good as he is portrayed to have been. The only time in his career he played on a team without top notch talent was in Hamilton, and he pretty much got booed out of town there. He wasn't very good. He also likely should have played in more than 1 Grey Cup on that talent filled Bombers team he QB's from 83-87...even losing at home in the eastern final to a Gilbert Renfroe led Argos team in which they were heavy favourites in '87, and put up....what was it..3 whole points in that game?

I can go on, but why bring up losing in back to back playoff years in in 81-82 vs. a pair of 5-11 Ottawa teams. Maybe he just sucked when it mattered?

Ok - whatever - pretty selective spin job viewing there - 39,000 career passing yards, league rookie of the year, league MVP, led 2 teams to GC wins (Holloway has zero GC starter wins, unless you count getting yanked when he was doing little), over 60% career completion percentage (back when a lot of top QBs were lucky to have mid 50s %), made an NFL roster .... i dunno, but to me these things show some pretty decent QB talent/skills ... but then again, maybe it was all the teams Clements was on and really he "wasn't very good" or "sucked" - now THAT is real laughable stuff there - yet you go off on me not labelling Lemon a superstar??? - unbelievable

Lemon's presence resulting in Ottawa having a better team/record ??? - another nice spin job try - the team was on a roll late in the season, and faced a bunch of mostly $h*t teams/competition - like a totally depleted Hamilton team - twice.

[Will]

but then again, maybe it was all the teams Clements was on and really he "wasn't very good" or "sucked" - now THAT is real laughable stuff there

Not because he wasn't good, but because I don't think he was as good as he is portrayed to have been.

I think there is a difference between what Angelo wrote and your interpretation of it, OV.

[paulwoods13]

Condredge Holloway won only one Grey Cup with a stacked Argo team between 1982 and 1984, and was part of a loss to a nondescript Hamilton team in 1984. Just sayin'. (And as everyone knows, I love Holloway.)

[Will]

Condredge Holloway won only one Grey Cup with a stacked Argo team between 1982 and 1984, and was part of a loss to a nondescript Hamilton team in 1984. Just sayin'. (And as everyone knows, I love Holloway.)

I was thinking that as well. But, I feel that the Eskimo dynasty needs to be considered here as well--a guy like Dieter Brock never won a Grey Cup and guys like Clements or Holloway may have won a ring or two more if not for those powerhouse teams.

Would the 1984 Argos have beaten the 1984 Blue Bombers in that Grey Cup? I see that the teams split the season series, but that Argo team started out 7-2 only to go 2-4-1 the rest of the way.

[AngeloV]

Condredge Holloway won only one Grey Cup with a stacked Argo team between 1982 and 1984, and was part of a loss to a nondescript Hamilton team in 1984. Just sayin'. (And as everyone knows, I love Holloway.)

Holloway left that game after the first quarter with a lead...Just saying. It was Joe Barnes that decided to make Felix Wright his favourite target on that afternoon.

I was thinking that as well.

Would the 1984 Argos have beaten the 1984 Blue Bombers in that Grey Cup?

That Blue Bomber team was stacked, but the Argos would have had as good a chance as any other team that year. They split the season series and IMO Argos definitely would have put up a better fight than the Cats.

[Will]

This thread obviously stemmed from the Shawn Lemon thread. I think it's an interesting topic so long as the discussion remains civil.

[Double Dare]

Cabin fever

[OV Argo]

Condredge Holloway won only one Grey Cup with a stacked Argo team between 1982 and 1984, and was part of a loss to a nondescript Hamilton team in 1984. Just sayin'. (And as everyone knows, I love Holloway.)

Didn't Holloway win a GC along with Clements and Ottawa in 76? The point here is - Holloway won zero GCs as the starter being instrumental in leading his team to the title game win.

And who moved this thread anyhow ? I didn't start a thread about Clements vs. Holloway (though I guess it could be interesting); they were just used as an example of rose, er, double blue tinted, scouting / player evaluation.

[Will]

Didn't Holloway win a GC along with Clements and Ottawa in 76? The point here is - Holloway won zero GCs as the starter being instrumental in leading his team to the title game win.

And who moved this thread anyhow ? I didn't start a thread about Clements vs. Holloway (though I guess it could be interesting); they were just used as an example of rose, er, double blue tinted, scouting / player evaluation.

These posts were originally in the Shawn Lemon thread, but since that thread had taken on a life of it's own (not related to him) I decided to split off the posts dealing with Clements and Holloway.

[doubleblue]

They were both pretty good CFL QB's in my books. We don't see many players of their size and ability coming out of the NCAA these days. Tommy might have been 5'10 and Condredge looked shorter. Different era I guess.

[paulwoods13]

Didn't Holloway win a GC along with Clements and Ottawa in 76? The point here is - Holloway won zero GCs as the starter being instrumental in leading his team to the title game win.

Which IMO supports my oft-stated belief that wins and losses is a team stat, not a QB stat. Holloway left the 1983 Grey Cup with the Argos trailing by 10, but we all know he was the club's most valuable QB that season. And he got us to the game by leading an incredible comeback against Hamilton in the EF. So he deserved the ring just as much as Joe Barnes did. I wouldn't downgrade CH for having only two GC rings and none in which he was the "QB of record," and I wouldn't denigrate TC for having only two, both of which he started and "won" the game.

[Will]

To be fair, wasn't Holloway's struggles in the 1st half of the 83 GC caused by illness?

[paulwoods13]

To be fair, wasn't Holloway's struggles in the 1st half of the 83 GC caused by illness?

Yes, he was sicker than a dog all week.

[OV Argo]

Which IMO supports my oft-stated belief that wins and losses is a team stat, not a QB stat. Holloway left the 1983 Grey Cup with the Argos trailing by 10, but we all know he was the club's most valuable QB that season. And he got us to the game by leading an incredible comeback against Hamilton in the EF. So he deserved the ring just as much as Joe Barnes did. I wouldn't downgrade CH for having only two GC rings and none in which he was the "QB of record," and I wouldn't denigrate TC for having only two, both of which he started and "won" the game.

I agree - the QB "wins" stat is over-rated and oft over-used. It's a team game. However - a lot of all-time great QBs led their team to a GC game and played great in that game. Russ Jackson, Warren Moon & Doug Flutie are the 3 all-time greats of CFL QBs IMO, and they had great passing stats along the way, but they also were QBs who came thru big-time in the title game in "leading" their TEAM to wins (plural). Condredge was a fine QB talent - passing & scrambling ability - IMO and had those couple of great seasons for the Argos - helped lead the TEAM to 2 straight EF titles and GC appearances.

Super Bowl "winning" QB as some sure sign of football superstardom or fame is maybe more of an American obsession. "World Champs" and all.

[paulwoods13]

Hec Pothier and Bill Stevenson (among other Eskimos) each won five Grey Cups in a row as starters. How come no one ever credits them with the wins? Yet Moon gets credited for three and Wilkinson for two (one in relief).

[Argo57]

I was thinking that as well. But, I feel that the Eskimo dynasty needs to be considered here as well--a guy like Dieter Brock never won a Grey Cup and guys like Clements or Holloway may have won a ring or two more if not for those powerhouse teams.

Would the 1984 Argos have beaten the 1984 Blue Bombers in that Grey Cup? I see that the teams split the season series, but that Argo team started out 7-2 only to go 2-4-1 the rest of the way.

The mid-late 1970's into the 1980's was the golden era for the CFL quarterback, (Holloway, Barnes, Brock, Clements, Dewalt, Moon, Paopao, Hufnagel) and legends like Wilkinson and Lancaster at the tail end of their illustrious careers pretty damn good overall IMO!!
Each had their unique styles and attributes while the offences seemed to have their own individual look as well which kept it interesting.

[Gill The Thrill]

They were both pretty good CFL QB's in my books. We don't see many players of their size and ability coming out of the NCAA these days. Tommy might have been 5'10 and Condredge looked shorter. Different era I guess.

Clements was 6 feet tall and Holloway was listed at 5`10`. There are guys as productive as they were coming out of the NCAA. Bo-Levi Mitchell is one of, if not has the best Won-loss record to start a QB career in the CFL and that is directly coming out of NCAA without playing in the NFL. Not that playing in the NFL is a guarantee to being successful in the CFL. Ask the myriad of QB`s that have bombed in the CFL after starting games in the NFL.

[jerrym]

Originally Posted by doubleblue
They were both pretty good CFL QB's in my books. We don't see many players of their size and ability coming out of the NCAA these days. Tommy might have been 5'10 and Condredge looked shorter. Different era I guess.

Clements was 6 feet tall and Holloway was listed at 5`10`. There are guys as productive as they were coming out of the NCAA. Bo-Levi Mitchell is one of, if not has the best Won-loss record to start a QB career in the CFL and that is directly coming out of NCAA without playing in the NFL. Not that playing in the NFL is a guarantee to being successful in the CFL. Ask the myriad of QB`s that have bombed in the CFL after starting games in the NFL.

I agree that both were very good CFL QBs and that we don't get as many high level NCAA QBs as we used to now that the NFL has finally recognized QB mobility is an asset, but we still get a share. Furthermore its not just Mitchell, Collaros had a fine NCAA level 1 career.

2009 season[edit]

When Pike was injured midway through the 2009 season, during a game against South Florida, Collaros again took over; on his third snap, he ran for a key 75-yard touchdown. He went on to start the next four games while Pike recovered from a broken arm.^[3] During week 10, Collaros won Big East Offensive Player of the Week, after racking up a Big East record 555 yards of total offense (480 passing, 75 rushing) and accounting for three touchdowns (one passing, two rushing) in a 48–45 win over Connecticut.^[4] In four starts, the second half of the USF game, and several "cameo appearances," Collaros racked up relatively big numbers (1,434 yards and 10 TDs passing, 344 yards and 4 TDs rushing).
2010 season[edit]

Collaros was Cincinnati's starting quarterback for the 2010 season. He led the Big East in passing yards with 2,902 and touchdowns with 26. He was selected as the 2010 First-Team All-Big East quarterback.^[5]
2011 season[edit]

Collaros was again named the starting quarterback for the 2011 season, his second full year as the starter.^[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zach_Collaros

PASSING STATS
YEAR	TEAM	CMP	ATT	PCT	YDS	AVG	TD	LNG	INT	RAT
2008	CIN	1	4	25.0	2	0.5	0	2	0	29.2
2009	CIN	93	124	75.0	1434	11.6	10	81	2	195.5
2010	CIN	225	383	58.7	2902	7.6	26	69	14	137.5
2011	CIN	166	272	61.0	1934	7.1	15	72	10	131.6

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/.../zach-collaros