2016 1st overall pick St. John holding out

[Wobbler]

http://3downnation.com/2016/06/03/to...osiah-st-john/

A good read.

That *is* a good read. If Dunk's sources are correct, it sounds like the main reason for the standoff was an emotional/hysterical response by Riders' management to St. John's willingness to hold out, rather than any principled decision to reduce salary expectations.

If this could be resolved by our swapping Sewell for St. John and signing him to a $80/100/120K deal, that would be nice. It would be wonderful to help the Riders with their problem.

[gilthethrill]

The two sides will come to an agreement before the season starts.

[paulwoods13]

That *is* a good read. If Dunk's sources are correct, it sounds like the main reason for the standoff was an emotional/hysterical response by Riders' management to St. John's willingness to hold out, rather than any principled decision to reduce salary expectations.

If this could be resolved by our swapping Sewell for St. John and signing him to a $80/100/120K deal, that would be nice. It would be wonderful to help the Riders with their problem.

Sewell has been slow to develop, but I don't have any evidence he is going to turn out worse than or equal to St. John. I'd be OK with a deal but no way I'd offer that much money to a guy as unproven as St. John.

[doubleblue]

Agreed. There's no way St. John should sign for the league minimum when previous No. 1s got $80K.

The Riders print money. I find it absurd they are the ones trying to "correct" the market.

If rumors are true that Hardaway was asking for 400,000 on a three year deal and that the Riders were offering 52,000 and 53,000 on a two year deal, I could then see where there would be a stand off. The St. John camp too high and the Riders too low. I could see the Riders coming up to 75,000 plus a small signing bonus. Put him on the 6 game injured list to start the season and they pretty well have their salary cap figure of around 50,000. But if Hardaway keeps insisting on something higher then this is headed for a train wreak. St. John IMO was the first pick more by default because of players going to the NFL and he was the only true CFL type Tackle available.
Sewell for St. John? Interesting. I guess we would see what each team thinks of Sewell's current value if it was ever discussed. Would Jones feel he is ready to play this year, or will he never be a player.

[AngeloV]

I'm guessing that the only reason Hardaway is asking for 400k over 3 years is because of the ridiculously low ball offer they received from the Riders. I'm sure they know that he will not get that type of contract but probably are looking to force the Riders to trade him.

[R.J]

That *is* a good read. If Dunk's sources are correct, it sounds like the main reason for the standoff was an emotional/hysterical response by Riders' management to St. John's willingness to hold out, rather than any principled decision to reduce salary expectations.

If this could be resolved by our swapping Sewell for St. John and signing him to a $80/100/120K deal, that would be nice. It would be wonderful to help the Riders with their problem.

Would be a bad deal for Saskatchewan IMO. Sewell still hasn't developed and might not have the ceiling that St. John has, but if a high pick were thrown in - IMO it would be a more equal deal.

I'm guessing that the only reason Hardaway is asking for 400k over 3 years is because of the ridiculously low ball offer they received from the Riders. I'm sure they know that he will not get that type of contract but probably are looking to force the Riders to trade him.

According to all of the reports - the low ball deal occured later on. Supposedly the first offer was around what the top picks got last season, but Hardaway and St. John wanted more. All speculation at this point I suppose.

[paulwoods13]

Would be a bad deal for Saskatchewan IMO. Sewell still hasn't developed and might not have the ceiling that St. John has, but if a high pick were thrown in - IMO it would be a more equal deal.

I wouldn't do a straight-up swap for a 3 yr/$300k deal, and I wouldn't throw in a high pick no matter what St. John's contract cost. He's less proven even than Sewell, and there's no guarantee he will pan out as a 10-year starter, or even a starter at all. IMO that pick was a reach by Sask.

[Wobbler]

Would be a bad deal for Saskatchewan IMO. Sewell still hasn't developed and might not have the ceiling that St. John has, but if a high pick were thrown in - IMO it would be a more equal deal.

Why would we want it to be a good deal for Saskatchewan?! ;) Such a trade would be, IMO, a face-saving gesture for Saskatchewan if St. John demands a trade to Toronto (a hypothetical situation to be sure). I've lost hope regarding Sewell, who has been awfully invisible for a guy Milanovich specifically called out as needing to step up in his third camp.

[R.J]

I wouldn't do a straight-up swap for a 3 yr/$300k deal, and I wouldn't throw in a high pick no matter what St. John's contract cost. He's less proven even than Sewell, and there's no guarantee he will pan out as a 10-year starter, or even a starter at all. IMO that pick was a reach by Sask.

St. John was considered one of the top three offensive linemen and one of only a few that are believed to be able to play LT (very rare). Sorry, but IMO Jones would be an idiot if he took Sewell for St. John.
I hope you not suggesting that Sewell is better than St. John - if you are what are you basing this on ?

Why would we want it to be a good deal for Saskatchewan?! ;) Such a trade would be, IMO, a face-saving gesture for Saskatchewan if St. John demands a trade to Toronto (a hypothetical situation to be sure). I've lost hope regarding Sewell, who has been awfully invisible for a guy Milanovich specifically called out as needing to step up in his third camp.

Jones isn't going to make a deal to help out the Argonauts, so it's not about making the Riders a good deal, but given them a deal they find acceptable. I lost hope for Sewell last season - when two Americans with less than a week with the team started over him.

[Argo57]

St. John was considered one of the top three offensive linemen and one of only a few that are believed to be able to play LT (very rare). Sorry, but IMO Jones would be an idiot if he took Sewell for St. John.
I hope you not suggesting that Sewell is better than St. John - if you are what are you basing this on ?


Jones isn't going to make a deal to help out the Argonauts, so it's not about making the Riders a good deal, but given them a deal they find acceptable. I lost hope for Sewell last season - when two Americans with less than a week with the team started over him.

Agree with what you are saying, if Sewell doesn't step up (and there is no indication he will at this point) that pick was a total bust.
Riders would be foolish to consider a 1 for 1 swap involving Sewell and St.John, it simply won't happen.

[OV Argo]

St. John was considered one of the top three offensive linemen and one of only a few that are believed to be able to play LT (very rare). Sorry, but IMO Jones would be an idiot if he took Sewell for St. John.
I hope you not suggesting that Sewell is better than St. John - if you are what are you basing this on ?


Jones isn't going to make a deal to help out the Argonauts, so it's not about making the Riders a good deal, but given them a deal they find acceptable. I lost hope for Sewell last season - when two Americans with less than a week with the team started over him.

Sewell was a repeat CIS all-star at OT; St John has precious little college ball starting experience on his resume and couldn't hold his starting OT job in his senior season at Oklahoma; Sewell is quite a bit bigger (taller & heavier) than St John - OTs are often valued for massive weight and longer frame/ arm reach;. St John might be favored by a lot of CFL thinkers because of his Div I resume, but smart scouts go by actual on football playing evidence - maybe you would have suggested that Eric Deslauriers was the way better receiver than Andy Fantuz coming out of college ball?. Sewell getting snubbed for playing time in favor or rookie imports instead? - gee, what a CFL shocker that is.

As far as NI rookie O-linemen pay-days - believe I read in the Ottawa Sun today that RedBlacks 1st round pick Jadson Lauzon-Seguin is being guaranteed 75 K this season.

[R.J]

Agree with what you are saying, if Sewell doesn't step up (and there is no indication he will at this point) that pick was a total bust.
Riders would be foolish to consider a 1 for 1 swap involving Sewell and St.John, it simply won't happen.

While I haven't completely lost hope for Sewell - it's not looking good. At this point it doesn't even look like he's the number 1 back-up (Smith when healthy is ahead of him) and who knows about McEwen. I do think they need to keep Sewell around, because if Van Zeyl or Bourke go down they'll need him, but if they continue to play guys ahead of him - time to cut bait. As a fan of the Argos I'd take the Sewell for St. John trade in a second, but I wouldn't if I was Jones or anyone associated with the Riders.

Sewell was a repeat CIS all-star at OT; St John has precious little college ball starting experience on his resume and couldn't hold his starting OT job in his senior season at Oklahoma; Sewell is quite a bit bigger (taller & heavier) than St John - OTs are often valued for massive weight and longer frame/ arm reach;. St John might be favored by a lot of CFL thinkers because of his Div I resume, but smart scouts go by actual on football playing evidence - maybe you would have suggested that Eric Deslauriers was the way better receiver than Andy Fantuz coming out of college ball?. Sewell getting snubbed for playing time in favor or rookie imports instead? - gee, what a CFL shocker that is.

As far as NI rookie O-linemen pay-days - believe I read in the Ottawa Sun today that RedBlacks 1st round pick Jadson Lauzon-Seguin is being guaranteed 75 K this season.

I was very vocal about wanting the Argonauts to grab St. John.
What a stupid assumption. Why would I think that Deslauriers was better than Fantuz ? I saw them both play and Fantuz looked like a true slot; which is very hard to find IMO.

[paulwoods13]

I hope you not suggesting that Sewell is better than St. John - if you are what are you basing this on ?

No, I'm suggesting that there is no evidence whatsoever at this point to prove St. John is better than Sewell, and the latter has at least taken snaps as a pro. St. John barely played in college, IIRC. So yes, trade one-for-one and sign St. John to a reasonable deal for an unproven player who could become another Mark Moroz. But no to a deal where we sweeten the pot, and no to a 3-yr/$300k deal.

[OV Argo]

While I haven't completely lost hope for Sewell - it's not looking good. At this point it doesn't even look like he's the number 1 back-up (Smith when healthy is ahead of him) and who knows about McEwen. I do think they need to keep Sewell around, because if Van Zeyl or Bourke go down they'll need him, but if they continue to play guys ahead of him - time to cut bait. As a fan of the Argos I'd take the Sewell for St. John trade in a second, but I wouldn't if I was Jones or anyone associated with the Riders.

I was very vocal about wanting the Argonauts to grab St. John.
What a stupid assumption. Why would I think that Deslauriers was better than Fantuz ? I saw them both play and Fantuz looked like a true slot; which is very hard to find IMO.

OK - so what on earth would possibly suggest to you that St John is the better pro OT prospect than Sewell? - because you saw them both play college ball?; because St John was highly rated for the CFL draft (so was Sewell)/; because Sewell has not got much CFL playing time yet (and struggled in a start against the best DE in the league - Chick) - in a league where imports are vastly favored for playing time at a lot of positions including OT ?

Deslauriers had a huge receiving season playing Div I US college ball; Fantuz was a 4 time (! rare feat) CIS all-Canadian - both were top receiver prospects in the same draft class. Pretty obvious who turned out the better pro/CFL receiver; my guess is that some of CFL "scouts" would have assumed/bet on Deslauriers - just by the Div I resume.

[R.J]

IMO 1 for 1 doesn't make sense for Saskatchewan, but if it does to others so be it. I don't know if St. John is better than Sewell at tackle, but what I do know is that Sewell in 3 years still hasn't worked his way onto the starting roster.

[Wobbler]

I don't think anyone would argue that St. John has "shown more" than Sewell at this point. JSJ hasn't failed to contribute meaningfully to a pro team, though... which is more than can be said about Sewell.

I'd love to be hilariously wrong, by the way. My hypothetical trade is pretty unlikely, and it would be fantastic if Sewell split reps with CVZ this year and went on to become our new RT.

[R.J]

I don't think anyone would argue that St. John has "shown more" than Sewell at this point. JSJ hasn't failed to contribute meaningfully to a pro team, though... which is more than can be said about Sewell.

I'd love to be hilariously wrong, by the way. My hypothetical trade is pretty unlikely, and it would be fantastic if Sewell split reps with CVZ this year and went on to become our new RT.

I'd have no issue with that - future RT sounds good to me, but how much longer does the team have to wait for Sewell to be ready ?
A little confused with the first part. St. John hasn't even shown more in college; Sewell has only shown that he's still not ready. I think it's more unknown vs relatively unknown if that makes sense.

[jerrym]

No, I'm suggesting that there is no evidence whatsoever at this point to prove St. John is better than Sewell, and the latter has at least taken snaps as a pro. St. John barely played in college, IIRC. So yes, trade one-for-one and sign St. John to a reasonable deal for an unproven player who could become another Mark Moroz. But no to a deal where we sweeten the pot, and no to a 3-yr/$300k deal.

I wouldn't be opposed to a trade provided the Riders allowed us to see if we can get a deal that works for both sides.

[AngeloV]

According to all of the reports - the low ball deal occured later on. Supposedly the first offer was around what the top picks got last season, but Hardaway and St. John wanted more. All speculation at this point I suppose.

Yeah, I don't buy it. Riders media are the biggest group of homers in the country. They will always take the side of the team.

[KCargosfan]

OK - so what on earth would possibly suggest to you that St John is the better pro OT prospect than Sewell? - because you saw them both play college ball?; because St John was highly rated for the CFL draft (so was Sewell)/; because Sewell has not got much CFL playing time yet (and struggled in a start against the best DE in the league - Chick) - in a league where imports are vastly favored for playing time at a lot of positions including OT ?

Deslauriers had a huge receiving season playing Div I US college ball; Fantuz was a 4 time (! rare feat) CIS all-Canadian - both were top receiver prospects in the same draft class. Pretty obvious who turned out the better pro/CFL receiver; my guess is that some of CFL "scouts" would have assumed/bet on Deslauriers - just by the Div I resume.

Are people not allowed to make opinions based on their own eyes?

Deslauriers putting up big numbers at Eastern Michigan doesn't count, because it's Eastern Michigan.