Argonauts under centre: the QB situation going forward.

**bluto** · 07-28-2015, 12:01 PM

The purpose of this thread is for the discussion of two things:

1. When Ricky Ray returns from rehab, who is the Toronto Argonauts #1 QB?

2. Beyond this season, who is the Toronto Argonauts #1 QB, who is under contract, and what happens to the other QBs on our current roster?

Trevor Harris. Current #1. Has us on top of the league despite our schedule and injuries. 29 years old. On his second contract with Toronto. Was among the league players of the week 3 times out of 4 weeks played so far this season.

Professor Ricky Ray. #1 everywhere he's been since Jason Maas got hurt in 2002. 36 years old. Lost #1 spot to shoulder surgery. All time great. Arguably the most efficient passer ever. On a $400k + bonus contract.

Can we keep both? If not, what's our move?

**paulwoods13** · 07-28-2015, 12:14 PM

There are still four or five games before RR returns, so lots of time for things to change. But assuming TH continues to play at his current level, I would support starting TH initially, ensuring RR gets gradually increasing amounts of playing time each week. When RR's fully healthy and has seen a fair bit of carefully managed game action in relief, he goes back to being No. 1. You don't lose your job because of injury, you lose it because of performance, and his most recent performances were arguably as good or better than TH has been this season.

That said, you start talking to TH right now about an extension with the goal of getting him signed beyond this season to a contract that would work if he is the undisputed No. 1 QB with inexperienced backups, OR he is one of two starting-calibre QBs (i.e. in the $300k range). And you have a heart-to-heart with RR to say we want you back in this offence that was made for your skill set, but it will be in a two-QB system and your salary will need to reflect that. If he says absolutely not, get TH signed and let RR walk or change his mind later. (And I reserve the right to change MY mind on this over the next month or two.)

**Will** · 07-28-2015, 12:37 PM

After consideration, the thread will be re-separated. However, given that the other thread on a similar topic was heated we will be monitoring this one closely.

**mchesher03** · 07-28-2015, 12:46 PM

someone said it on another thread...

the argos (subject to a massive downturn in fortune obviously) are a legitimate contender for the Grey Cup. Definitely the class of the east and have not yet played a home game and sit at 3-1. When Ricky comes back, you do whatever you have to do to get the Double Blue back in the Grey Cup. Boring answer but I trust our coaches to make the right decision, same goes with beyond this year and Jim Barker. We can sit here and second guess them all we want but I trust them making the decisions more than I'd trust myself.

**AngeloV** · 07-28-2015, 12:57 PM

Argos need to find a way to sign both. Calgary IMO is the only team in the league with 2 legit starter types on their roster. It's no wonder they won it all last year.

For starters, if Harris continues to perform the way he has, and I see no evidence he won't, the Argos need to extend him in season. I believe if he was offered 2+ years at 300k each, he would take it. It would make him a top 4 paid QB in the league despite only having a handful of starts.

After the season is over, depending on health, you would then offer Ray a similar type contract (perhaps with added incentives). At that point, it will be a competition as to who wins the starting job.

I don't see a QB controversy happening here, as both seem like great team guys, with a good management team behind them, unlike the 2008 Bishop/Joseph drama.

When/if Ray comes back healthy this season, you give him every opportunity to prove that he should be the starter. If he isn't at the level you hope, you go to Harris.

**Argo** · 07-28-2015, 01:07 PM

Originally Posted by mchesher03

someone said it on another thread...

the argos (subject to a massive downturn in fortune obviously) are a legitimate contender for the Grey Cup. Definitely the class of the east and have not yet played a home game and sit at 3-1. When Ricky comes back, you do whatever you have to do to get the Double Blue back in the Grey Cup. Boring answer but I trust our coaches to make the right decision, same goes with beyond this year and Jim Barker. We can sit here and second guess them all we want but I trust them making the decisions more than I'd trust myself.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Originally Posted by AngeloV

Argos need to find a way to sign both. Calgary IMO is the only team in the league with 2 legit starter types on their roster. It's no wonder they won it all last year.

For starters, if Harris continues to perform the way he has, and I see no evidence he won't, the Argos need to extend him in season. I believe if he was offered 2+ years at 300k each, he would take it. It would make him a top 4 paid QB in the league despite only having a handful of starts.

After the season is over, depending on health, you would then offer Ray a similar type contract (perhaps with added incentives). At that point, it will be a competition as to who wins the starting job.

I don't see a QB controversy happening here, as both seem like great team guys, with a good management team behind them, unlike the 2008 Bishop/Joseph drama.

When/if Ray comes back healthy this season, you give him every opportunity to prove that he should be the starter. If he isn't at the level you hope, you go to Harris.

Assuming that this sort of scenario unfolds, and it's a "coin toss" as to who should be #1 to start next season, then logic demands that the seven year younger star QB be selected.

**bluto** · 07-28-2015, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by AngeloV

Argos need to find a way to sign both. Calgary IMO is the only team in the league with 2 legit starter types on their roster. It's no wonder they won it all last year.

For starters, if Harris continues to perform the way he has, and I see no evidence he won't, the Argos need to extend him in season. I believe if he was offered 2+ years at 300k each, he would take it. It would make him a top 4 paid QB in the league despite only having a handful of starts.

After the season is over, depending on health, you would then offer Ray a similar type contract (perhaps with added incentives). At that point, it will be a competition as to who wins the starting job.

I don't see a QB controversy happening here, as both seem like great team guys, with a good management team behind them, unlike the 2008 Bishop/Joseph drama.

When/if Ray comes back healthy this season, you give him every opportunity to prove that he should be the starter. If he isn't at the level you hope, you go to Harris.

for any Argo supporter, this would of course be the ideal situation. the problem is that agents and other teams' GMs get into it and suddenly, signing in Toronto might cost you $150k/season... and if you're Harris and Ray re-signs with the promise of an open competition, maybe you think that it's both money and development experience you're missing out on... he's 29, his time is now... so if he or his agent feel like going to any of the several teams who would be thrilled to sew a 7 on their jersey for you is what's best... then that is what happens.

i'd love to have both... but the only circumstances where i see it as possible is with a (Flutie forbid) surgery diminished RR accepting a #2 role and the paycheque that goes with it.

because if they both are healthy and eager... Harris has his futre to look out for, and Ray has his place in history to secure with 2 seasons more of top play.

**Argo** · 07-28-2015, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by bluto

for any Argo supporter, this would of course be the ideal situation. the problem is that agents and other teams' GMs get into it and suddenly, signing in Toronto might cost you $150k/season... and if you're Harris and Ray re-signs with the promise of an open competition, maybe you think that it's both money and development experience you're missing out on... he's 29, his time is now... so if he or his agent feel like going to any of the several teams who would be thrilled to sew a 7 on their jersey for you is what's best... then that is what happens.

i'd love to have both... but the only circumstances where i see it as possible is with a (Flutie forbid) surgery diminished RR accepting a #2 role and the paycheque that goes with it.

because if they both are healthy and eager... Harris has his futre to look out for, and Ray has his place in history to secure with 2 seasons more of top play.

Good post. Opportunity has knocked for Harris and he has answered. His time really is now. If Harris can lead the Argos to the Grey Cup, I have no problem with him leading the Argos to the Grey Cup : ))

Harris will be an unconditional starter in the CFL next season. It had better be in Toronto than not.

**AngeloV** · 07-28-2015, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by bluto

for any Argo supporter, this would of course be the ideal situation. the problem is that agents and other teams' GMs get into it and suddenly, signing in Toronto might cost you $150k/season... and if you're Harris and Ray re-signs with the promise of an open competition, maybe you think that it's both money and development experience you're missing out on... he's 29, his time is now... so if he or his agent feel like going to any of the several teams who would be thrilled to sew a 7 on their jersey for you is what's best... then that is what happens.

i'd love to have both... but the only circumstances where i see it as possible is with a (Flutie forbid) surgery diminished RR accepting a #2 role and the paycheque that goes with it.

because if they both are healthy and eager... Harris has his futre to look out for, and Ray has his place in history to secure with 2 seasons more of top play.

You may be right. I don't know what is going to happen obviously. This is just what I would do. Remember, Drew Tate easily could have signed with Ottawa last year to likely be their starter. He chose to stay with Calgary as the back up because Calgary paid him very good money to be the back up.

I like Harris a lot and defended him when the Zach attack members here complained that he wasn't good. Happy feet is the classic line I remember.

Having said that, the way QB's have been going down, you need 2 capable starters. That's why I suggest paying them each in the 300k neighbourhood. If Harris is offered that mid season, I suspect he will sign. If that isn't in the cards for Ray, then you need to find someone else that's capable to cmpliment Harris. I have always said that Ray should be the starter, but it has to be a good team fit going forward after this season.

The funny thing here is that everybody seems to think Harris is going to get a huge payday at season's end. I don't see him getting more than the 300k the Argos would offer in my scenario. Collaros sure didn't. Reilly didn't when he first went to Edmonton. He had to have 2 years of solid play before he got that big contract. He would still be a big risk for another team to throw huge money at, because there is a possibility that he is great in the Argos system, but not might be in another.

It's the nature of sports. We tend to overrate what our own teams players are worth, and how much they will sign for.

**Will** · 07-28-2015, 02:21 PM

Answer to #1: It really depends on what the standings look like when Ricky Ray is ready to return. If Harris continues to play well and team continues to win then I don't really see how you can take him out of the starting lineup. The east is tighter and every win counts. Not that #15 is capable, but I wouldn't want to test the notion mid-season. Obviously, it's a different situation if Harris struggles. Neither Harris or Ray can determine where the defense goes, however.

Long-term, Angelo's scenario sounds great. If it isn't plausible, I'd lean towards Harris at this point. Either way, it's definitely a tougher decision than with Collaros and Ray from 2013.

**doubleblue** · 07-28-2015, 02:28 PM

I don't know what the SMS cap is next year. Don't think it goes up too much, something like 50 or 100,00. But maybe the new well heeled ownership can come up with some creative way to reward Harris with starter money and keep Ricky as well. How about a playing Coach position. 2K for playing and 2k for Coaching, or maybe a Vice-President position with Bad Boys. lol
I'm sure Jon Cornish doesn't have to report his Bank job salary in the Cap.

**AngeloV** · 07-28-2015, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by doubleblue

I don't know what the SMS cap is next year. Don't think it goes up too much, something like 50 or 100,00. But maybe the new well heeled ownership can come up with some creative way to reward Harris with starter money and keep Ricky as well. How about a playing Coach position. 2K for playing and 2k for Coaching, or maybe a Vice-President position with Bad Boys. lol
I'm sure Jon Cornish doesn't have to report his Bank job salary in the Cap.

I don't think that is allowed anymore. Would be nice. Pay someone to be manager of turning the lights on and off at the ACC. LOL!!

I think the Argos can easily pay the 2 a combined 600k and still be in good shape with the SMS.

**Neely2005** · 07-28-2015, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by AngeloV

I don't think that is allowed anymore. Would be nice. Pay someone to be manager of turning the lights on and off at the ACC. LOL!!

I think the Argos can easily pay the 2 a combined 600k and still be in good shape with the SMS.

Yeah I don't think that we're exactly spending to the Cap now so we should have space for both, especially if Ray takes a pay cut to stay.

**ArgoGabe22** · 07-28-2015, 05:33 PM

They can and should sign both. They could even give TH a somewhat generous salary for a backup (not 300-400k) and even offer incentives and roster bonuses. They could do this to both in a perfect world but anyone can object to such deal. I'm 99.9% positive that Kevin Glenn has a lower base salary with lots of roster bonuses.

**1argoholic** · 07-29-2015, 11:34 AM

When Ray gets back and starts to shred other teams D's with his pin point passing no one will be talking about trading him. You try and sign both and Harris has a great outlook knowing that Ricky is the true number one still. Perhaps Ray would be content to fall to second in a year or two.

**Ron** · 07-29-2015, 06:00 PM

Harris looks good in the current system. But other than maybe Ottawa i don't see anyone wanting to make Harris their starter next season.

**Argo57** · 07-29-2015, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by Ron

Harris looks good in the current system. But other than maybe Ottawa i don't see anyone wanting to make Harris their starter next season.

Saskatchewan??
Achilles injury tough to recover from (Durant), Glenn mediocre at best, then who??

**Will** · 07-30-2015, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by Argo57

Saskatchewan??
Achilles injury tough to recover from (Durant), Glenn mediocre at best, then who??

I don't envision Saskatchewan doing anything drastic with Durant in the interim.

**jerrym** · 07-30-2015, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by paulwoods13

There are still four or five games before RR returns, so lots of time for things to change. But assuming TH continues to play at his current level, I would support starting TH initially, ensuring RR gets gradually increasing amounts of playing time each week. When RR's fully healthy and has seen a fair bit of carefully managed game action in relief, he goes back to being No. 1. You don't lose your job because of injury, you lose it because of performance, and his most recent performances were arguably as good or better than TH has been this season.

This makes the most sense to me as it gives the Argos the best 1-2 QB combination in the league for a Grey Cup run and leaves us with a top game-ready QB even if one of them is injured.