Barker and Milanovich need to be fired!!!!!!!!!!

[R.J]

It's tough because when they get more aggressive (like with Kilgore gunslinging) the fans here give the team crap for not doing check down's and being more conservative.

Kilgore was making bad decisions, it's as simple as that, he threw into triple coverage at least twice against Winnipeg, and was picked off twice by Watkins on what looked like the same play call - similar field position too. As for Ray, he himself admitted after the home opener that he was too quick to checkdown at times and wasn't going through his reads.

I can't speak for anyone else, but yes I do want to see the Argonauts become more aggressive on offence, Hamilton's offence with more running is actually my perfect offence, but I love Mass' aggressiveness, so that's another example. Zach Collaors in two games has thrown for 712 yards, 7 TD and 1 interception, Mike Reilly in 8 games has thrown for 2,843 yards, 14 TDS and 6 INT. Being aggressive doesn't mean that you have to throw picks. Hamilton's offence has a lot of intermediate routes and throw out a deep ball once in awhile, which I love because it's a good mix. Edmonton is a bit different, because Reilly likes the deep ball (McAdoo is conservative as well, but Reilly would push the ball in 14 & 15), Reilly trusts Walker and Bowman (a good thing, but IMO he relies on them too much at times). It doesn't have to be throw picks or throw checkdowns (why is there only ever two options around here ?), watch Hamilton and Edmonton's offence - they prove it.

[AngeloV]

Kilgore was making bad decisions, it's as simple as that, he threw into triple coverage at least twice against Winnipeg,.

That is such an overused cliche. I can guarantee you, there is no such thing as triple coverage. Truthfully, only his first pick was thrown into a crowd, and that was 2 defenders, one actually having the coverage, and the other being the LB drifting towards the ball. Not saying that Kilgore didn't struggle, but the double and triple coverage talk, is just plain not true.

The overreaction to Kilgore's struggles are ridiculous. He's 26 years old, and just played his first meaningful set of games. Trevor Harris was 29 when he played his first meaningful set of games. I'm willing to bet if he had his first starts 3 years earlier, he likely would have struggled as well, and the same people on here would be shipping him out on the first plane.

I'm the first to admit that I liked Collaros a lot when he was here, and sure as hell wished we could have kept him. I still believe the bush league way that Braley was running the team had more to do with him leaving than the fact that he didn't think he'd get a chance to start.

[R.J]

That is such an overused cliche. I can guarantee you, there is no such thing as triple coverage. Truthfully, only his first pick was thrown into a crowd, and that was 2 defenders, one actually having the coverage, and the other being the LB drifting towards the ball. Not saying that Kilgore didn't struggle, but the double and triple coverage talk, is just plain not true.

The overreaction to Kilgore's struggles are ridiculous. He's 26 years old, and just played his first meaningful set of games. Trevor Harris was 29 when he played his first meaningful set of games. I'm willing to bet if he had his first starts 3 years earlier, he likely would have struggled as well, and the same people on here would be shipping him out on the first plane.

I'm the first to admit that I liked Collaros a lot when he was here, and sure as hell wished we could have kept him. I still believe the bush league way that Braley was running the team had more to do with him leaving than the fact that he didn't think he'd get a chance to start.

The first two picks against Winnipeg Kilgore threw when there were at least 2-3 opposing defenders around the receivers, the coverage wasn't planned that way obviously, but it was the easiest way for me to explain it. I also disagree with Braley being blamed for Collaros leaving, Zach wanted to be the guy, said so himself during his introductory press conference.

Also, while Harris was 29 when he started here, Zach was 24 when he started on the road, and Zach looked pretty good, while being two years younger than Kilgore.

[AngeloV]

The first two picks against Winnipeg Kilgore threw when there were at least 2-3 opposing defenders around the receivers, the coverage wasn't planned that way obviously, but it was the easiest way for me to explain it. I also disagree with Braley being blamed for Collaros leaving, Zach wanted to be the guy, said so himself during his introductory press conference.

I guess only Zach really knows the answer to that. He definitely would have been the starter here now if he had stayed, and I bet it was pitched to him that he would have played a lot in '14 and taken over as the starter in '15.

[R.J]

I guess only Zach really knows the answer to that. He definitely would have been the starter here now if he had stayed, and I bet it was pitched to him that he would have played a lot in '14 and taken over as the starter in '15.

So, Zach was suppose to wait and backup for Ricky Ray in 2014, when he knew other teams would give him the chance to be the guy ? Ray played 17 games in 2014 btw, so 2015 would have been Collaro's year. Yeah sorry, but I don't think Collaros would have wanted to wait until 2015. Not to mention that Milanovich continued to stick with Ray even after both Collaros and Harris played well in his stead. Heck, Milanovich played a wonky armed Ricky Ray (who himself admitted he was 80% at best) over Harris at the end of the season. Milanovich even admitted that Ray started the last regular season game to get him ready for the playoffs. Milanovich's choice has been clear in all this.

[argotom]

Well 3 years to be accurate. But accuracy likely isn't a strong suit.

Oh big deal 2 out of 3 years.
My accuracy is a lot better than your evaluation back in the day of Collaros.

[ArgoGabe22]

Oh big deal 2 out of 3 years.
My accuracy is a lot better than your evaluation back in the day of Collaros.

You may want to do some thread searching before making such a claim. You may have misremembered Angelo's original thoughts.

[R.J]

Oh big deal 2 out of 3 years.
My accuracy is a lot better than your evaluation back in the day of Collaros.

You may want to do some thread searching before making such a claim. You may have misremembered Angelo's original thoughts.

Angelo from the beginning liked Collaros and thought he had something. I think AT (and correct me if I'm wrong), you're thinking about Angelo being okay/good with sticking with Ray instead of going with Collaros after 2013.

[1971GreyCup]

"Pinball" Clemons an option to step in as the next HC? He certainly won't put less butts in the seats. Although Barker would have to go first. I don't think he has ever been comfortable with Pinball's presence since Day #1.
Certainly a viable option mid-season.

I have always thought the Argos HC's personality and aggressiveness was important to football fans in TO. All the way back to Leo Cahill! Few remember the cavernous Exhibition Stadium before Leo came over from the Toronto Rifles with some of his players. In those days we had much more promises and less excuses.

[Double Dare]

I have always thought the Argos HC's personality and aggressiveness was important to football fans in TO.

Yes!

[1argoholic]

I realize that it's a fan forum and people discuss the future, the present and the past but rehashing would have, could have ,might have crap is useless now. I actually think that Harris at this point could look even better then Collaros. However neither of these guys are Argonauts. The time to move on was ages ago.
Kilgore might be young but he doesn't get it. You're a qb who just makes up your mind and tosses the ball whether your guy is open or not. That might work in high school but not here.

I can be critical of both Milo and Barker but they have had to deal with loads of crap since being here and massive player turn over. It must be difficult keeping the ship from sinking while managing your emotions. A ton of injuries doesn't help. It's not time to can these guys.

[Antwon]

So, Zach was suppose to wait and backup for Ricky Ray in 2014, when he knew other teams would give him the chance to be the guy ? Ray played 17 games in 2014 btw, so 2015 would have been Collaro's year. Yeah sorry, but I don't think Collaros would have wanted to wait until 2015. Not to mention that Milanovich continued to stick with Ray even after both Collaros and Harris played well in his stead. Heck, Milanovich played a wonky armed Ricky Ray (who himself admitted he was 80% at best) over Harris at the end of the season. Milanovich even admitted that Ray started the last regular season game to get him ready for the playoffs. Milanovich's choice has been clear in all this.

100% agree with you. Collaros knew SM would play Ray no matter what. So it's a no brainer to go to a team that gives you a fair shot to be the starter.
Then SM snubbed Harris for 80% Ray for the playoff game. Again a no brainer for Harris to go somewhere with a fair shot at being the starter.
SM blind loyalty to Ray forces the backup to move on.
Look what Campbell did this week. Announced Harris the starter and Burris backup. SM would never do that!!!

[argotom]

Angelo from the beginning liked Collaros and thought he had something. I think AT (and correct me if I'm wrong), you're thinking about Angelo being okay/good with sticking with Ray instead of going with Collaros after 2013.

Precisely.
I am not saying how the anti crowd did not perhaps like Collaros.
However this then vast majority without question were not enamoured enough with him when combined with the blinders for Ricky to suggest he could be out future.
I recall being the only one perhaps with maybe a couple of others who consistently indicated to the contrary.
How it would be a big mistake to let him go to FA, sure enough not only was I proven correct for Zach then a couple years later same stupid mistake with Harris.
It's all about evaluating talent, exactly what Austin did and especially cutting Burris another HOF for Collaros.
On top of which, Winnipeg was the looking for a QB and the RB entered the league, so we could have traded Ray and likely got a 1st round pick.
Burris had negotiated with Winnipeg and signed with Ottawa instead.
There is no question how Einstein's quote may be relevant here: Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

[argotom]

100% agree with you. Collaros knew SM would play Ray no matter what. So it's a no brainer to go to a team that gives you a fair shot to be the starter.
Then SM snubbed Harris for 80% Ray for the playoff game. Again a no brainer for Harris to go somewhere with a fair shot at being the starter.
SM blind loyalty to Ray forces the backup to move on.
Look what Campbell did this week. Announced Harris the starter and Burris backup. SM would never do that!!!

Right on, I mentioned the very same thing on the CFL portion here, how coach Campbell is playing to win with the best player instead of what Milanovich and Barker did and surprisingly still would never do because Ricky will be a HOF.
Who gives a rats rectum, as you play to win with your best and owe a duty to the players and fans as the coach must put the best lineup forward.

[R.J]

"Pinball" Clemons an option to step in as the next HC? He certainly won't put less butts in the seats. Although Barker would have to go first. I don't think he has ever been comfortable with Pinball's presence since Day #1.
Certainly a viable option mid-season.

I have always thought the Argos HC's personality and aggressiveness was important to football fans in TO. All the way back to Leo Cahill! Few remember the cavernous Exhibition Stadium before Leo came over from the Toronto Rifles with some of his players. In those days we had much more promises and less excuses.

Do you recall the Cleo Lemon half time situation ?
The first person Barker spoke to about the situation was Pinball, Barker took his mic off (Argos were filming a show who's name escapes me now), and asked the crew not to film, while walking off with Pinball. Pinball is also continually asked to speak with the team by Barker and Milanovich. So, I doubt either Milanovich or Barker have issue with Pinball, or aren't comfortable by his presence.

[AngeloV]

Angelo from the beginning liked Collaros and thought he had something. I think AT (and correct me if I'm wrong), you're thinking about Angelo being okay/good with sticking with Ray instead of going with Collaros after 2013.

That was exactly what I thought and posted. I would have loved to keep Collaros, but how do you cut a QB that came off back to back years of a) winning the Grey Cup and b) being an MOP nomination. Collaros may have even made more money if he stayed in Toronto, because he has been one of the lowest paid starters through his current (prior to extension) contract.

But if AT wants to go around patting himself on the back saying "I told the world", then so be it.

[AngeloV]

"Pinball" Clemons an option to step in as the next HC? He certainly won't put less butts in the seats. Although Barker would have to go first. I don't think he has ever been comfortable with Pinball's presence since Day #1.
.

Don't know about that. If that were the case, I doubt he would have brought him in to address the team in a motivational way prior to the season. Pinball doesn't want to be coach anyways. If he did, he wouldn't have stepped away on multiple occasions.

[R.J]

That was exactly what I thought and posted. I would have loved to keep Collaros, but how do you cut a QB that came off back to back years of a) winning the Grey Cup and b) being an MOP nomination. Collaros may have even made more money if he stayed in Toronto, because he has been one of the lowest paid starters through his current (prior to extension) contract.

But if AT wants to go around patting himself on the back saying "I told the world", then so be it.

FWIW, Burris lead the Redblacks to a Grey Cup berth, and won the regular season MOP last season, and Campbell has decided it's Harris' time now. Eventually the Packers told Favre to take a hike. IMO Collaros showed he was special in 2013, he had a lot more "future value" than Ray ever would again. He (Collaros) wanted to be the guy, Hamilton gave him the opportunity that Toronto wouldn't give him, so I have no issue with Collaros leaving, nor how much he loves being a Ticat.

[Neely2005]

Right on, I mentioned the very same thing on the CFL portion here, how coach Campbell is playing to win with the best player instead of what Milanovich and Barker did and surprisingly still would never do because Ricky will be a HOF.
Who gives a rats rectum, as you play to win with your best and owe a duty to the players and fans as the coach must put the best lineup forward.

So are you saying that we should be starting Kilgore (or someone else who is on our roster and healthy) over Ray once Ray is healthy?

[Will]

So are you saying that we should be starting Kilgore (or someone else who is on our roster and healthy) over Ray once Ray is healthy?

Umm...no

I don't think Tom is trying to say that at all.