Barker and Milanovich need to be fired!!!!!!!!!!

[Argo57]

As has already been pointed out the Trestman/SM offense is the exact same.....but the difference between the Mtl offense vs the Argos offense has been the offensive line (which is glaringly clear to see). The QB needs enough time to make those reads, and the RB needs some holes created for them. So you can bring in any great coach, but if the O-line isn't upgraded, it isn't going to make a difference. SM/JM obviously realized that from last year with the Bourke signing but that didn't work out, whether it was pure performance or there was an undisclosed injury. Does anyone think BLM would be having such a great year if he had an O-line that resembled ours?

Also, over the years many folks have complained (myself included) that we haven't been able to have continuity in the coordinators due to the financial state of the team. We are now in a position to potentially have the same coordinators across the board for a 2 years in a row!!! But folks are saying, lets get rid of SM/JB, which will of course mean all new coordinators AGAIN... really??

I understand your sentiment in regards to the changes in this coaching staff in the last 3-4 years but this management team and coaching staff presented their fans with a pitiful product in 2016 (probably 5-13 and a no show in the second half of the season) so I hope none of this coaching staff are back next year.
I just hope the dim bulbs that own this team actually have a clue and can actually make some good hire's heading into 2017.
Status quo will only waste time and bring more of the same crap we have been forced to digest this season....no thank you!

[argolio]

What I found interesting last night was the Mitchell/West connection. Mitchell looked just as frustrated as any Argo QB when he had a receiver not doing what he was supposed to be doing.

Probably why West rarely gets activated.

[R.J]

What I found interesting last night was the Mitchell/West connection. Mitchell looked just as frustrated as any Argo QB when he had a receiver not doing what he was supposed to be doing.

You really love blaming the receivers here don't you ?

[Stevoman]

Okay, very disappointing season and I know that an argument can be made for both of them to be fired but I seriously can't think of anyone that could come in and make drastic improvement. At the beginning of the season, I felt like the Argos had good Canadian depth, good receivers, had improved both lines, and would be better defensively with Stubler in control. My biggest concern was quarterbacking. All in all, I thought Barker had done a decent job of assembling the roster and while disappointed that Owens was let go, understood it and was happy that Spencer would get more playing time.
What I'm saying is, in constructing the roster, I was pleased (especially if Ray could be healthy).
What has happened since, the trading for Willy, and the cutting of the big 3 are both big mistakes and they could be fired just for that but I really have no clue as to who would do a better job. So, assuming they are gone, who do you see as potential replacements?

[PullTogether73]

I just hope the dim bulbs that own this team actually have a clue and can actually make some good hire's heading into 2017.

Wow, the honeymoon ended fast for you huh?

Seems to me that the owners primary task this year was to get a management team in place to address improving the game day experience in an effort to attract fans back to the games. They made great strides in that regard.

The management group also had to organize the Grey Cup. Obviously, the ticket pricing has been a fiasco, but all of the other arrangements seem to be in place.

Finally, the on-field product was apparently last on the list of priorities, likely because it wasn't deemed a problem, given an established coaching group and a competitive team going in to the season.

I don't recall any of the wizards on this forum (including myself) forecasting the dismal performance of the team on the field. And, none of us have come up with any stand-out candidates to replace Barker and Milanovich should they be fired.

I'm willing to cut management some slack here.

[doubleblue]

Skinny G said: lso, over the years many folks have complained (myself included) that we haven't been able to have continuity in the coordinators due to the financial state of the team. We are now in a position to potentially have the same coordinators across the board for a 2 years in a row!!! But folks are saying, lets get rid of SM/JB, which will of course mean all new coordinators AGAIN... really??

Brady has been Milanovich's Offensive Coordinator for five years here in Toronto. I wouldn't mind seeing a new one. Stubler isn't exactly a rookie Defensive Coordinator either but his bend but don't break defense seems out of date. Takes a special veteran type player to play it well IMO. Stubler hasn't got too many of those types here.

[Golden Fleece]

I had concerns about two major decisions Barker made this season, but I was going to reserve judgement until the season played out to see if the Argos would make the playoffs or not. Now that the team has been eliminated, I think it's fair to say he failed on both decisions, costing the team this year and possibly in the future.

Decision 1: Ricky Ray or Trevor Harris--Watching Harris live last year, I felt he passed the eye test. He had arrived and his arrow was pointing up. Ricky Ray could still manage the short passing game, but I was concerned with his apparent inability to stretch the field with the deep ball. Of course there was hope that with an offseason of rest his arm strength would return (which was touted in training camp), but one truism I know of in football is that it's better to give up on a player a year early than a year late. I believed the right move was to get younger at the QB position and invest in Harris as the number 1, but it didn't happen.

Decision 2: The Drew Willy trade. Another truism of football is draft the big guys early. A truism specific to the CFL is accumulate as much Canadian talent as possible. Put those two together and it highlights the value of keeping your first round draft picks to draft Canadian O-linemen. Barker gave away a first round pick+ for a QB that almost everyone expected to be released in the offseason for budgetary reasons. Did we acquire a mid-season difference maker? Obviously not. To be fair to Willy, give him a training camp and who knows, but we could have found that out without making the trade.

To see Barker so thoroughly mess up with the QB position suggests to me that the timing is right to make a change. The HC would have to go as well to allow the new GM to bring in his own man. Will changes lead to a playoff spot next year? Possibly not, but if the new regime is ready to go by year 2 the way Saskatchewan looks to be headed, that would be an achievement in my books.

[doubleblue]

I had concerns about two major decisions Barker made this season, but I was going to reserve judgement until the season played out to see if the Argos would make the playoffs or not. Now that the team has been eliminated, I think it's fair to say he failed on both decisions, costing the team this year and possibly in the future.

Decision 1: Ricky Ray or Trevor Harris--Watching Harris live last year, I felt he passed the eye test. He had arrived and his arrow was pointing up. Ricky Ray could still manage the short passing game, but I was concerned with his apparent inability to stretch the field with the deep ball. Of course there was hope that with an offseason of rest his arm strength would return (which was touted in training camp), but one truism I know of in football is that it's better to give up on a player a year early than a year late. I believed the right move was to get younger at the QB position and invest in Harris as the number 1, but it didn't happen.

Decision 2: The Drew Willy trade. Another truism of football is draft the big guys early. A truism specific to the CFL is accumulate as much Canadian talent as possible. Put those two together and it highlights the value of keeping your first round draft picks to draft Canadian O-linemen. Barker gave away a first round pick+ for a QB that almost everyone expected to be released in the offseason for budgetary reasons. Did we acquire a mid-season difference maker? Obviously not. To be fair to Willy, give him a training camp and who knows, but we could have found that out without making the trade.

To see Barker so thoroughly mess up with the QB position suggests to me that the timing is right to make a change. The HC would have to go as well to allow the new GM to bring in his own man. Will changes lead to a playoff spot next year? Possibly not, but if the new regime is ready to go by year 2 the way Saskatchewan looks to be headed, that would be an achievement in my books.

Good post. You're right on IMO.

[R.J]

Brady has been Milanovich's Offensive Coordinator for five years here in Toronto. I wouldn't mind seeing a new one. Stubler isn't exactly a rookie Defensive Coordinator either but his bend but don't break defense seems out of date. Takes a special veteran type player to play it well IMO. Stubler hasn't got too many of those types here.

What would getting rid of Brady solve if Milanovich is kept around ?

I'm suprised that Stubler has failed so miserably here, while I've never been a.big fan of Stubler's system, his track record speaks for itself. In saying that, IMO we may need to make yet another switch at DC. If the move were to be made, that would be the fifth DC here in 5 years, not a good thing either IMO.

[R.J]

I had concerns about two major decisions Barker made this season, but I was going to reserve judgement until the season played out to see if the Argos would make the playoffs or not. Now that the team has been eliminated, I think it's fair to say he failed on both decisions, costing the team this year and possibly in the future.

Decision 1: Ricky Ray or Trevor Harris--Watching Harris live last year, I felt he passed the eye test. He had arrived and his arrow was pointing up. Ricky Ray could still manage the short passing game, but I was concerned with his apparent inability to stretch the field with the deep ball. Of course there was hope that with an offseason of rest his arm strength would return (which was touted in training camp), but one truism I know of in football is that it's better to give up on a player a year early than a year late. I believed the right move was to get younger at the QB position and invest in Harris as the number 1, but it didn't happen.

Decision 2: The Drew Willy trade. Another truism of football is draft the big guys early. A truism specific to the CFL is accumulate as much Canadian talent as possible. Put those two together and it highlights the value of keeping your first round draft picks to draft Canadian O-linemen. Barker gave away a first round pick+ for a QB that almost everyone expected to be released in the offseason for budgetary reasons. Did we acquire a mid-season difference maker? Obviously not. To be fair to Willy, give him a training camp and who knows, but we could have found that out without making the trade.

To see Barker so thoroughly mess up with the QB position suggests to me that the timing is right to make a change. The HC would have to go as well to allow the new GM to bring in his own man. Will changes lead to a playoff spot next year? Possibly not, but if the new regime is ready to go by year 2 the way Saskatchewan looks to be headed, that would be an achievement in my books.

Is the QB situation solely on Barker though ?
Seems to me Milanovich played a big hand in Harris leaving and the Drew Willy trade, which Barker has said that Milanovich had pushed since Willy was benched in Winnipeg.

[Argo57]

Wow, the honeymoon ended fast for you huh?

Seems to me that the owners primary task this year was to get a management team in place to address improving the game day experience in an effort to attract fans back to the games. They made great strides in that regard.

The management group also had to organize the Grey Cup. Obviously, the ticket pricing has been a fiasco, but all of the other arrangements seem to be in place.

Finally, the on-field product was apparently last on the list of priorities, likely because it wasn't deemed a problem, given an established coaching group and a competitive team going in to the season.

I don't recall any of the wizards on this forum (including myself) forecasting the dismal performance of the team on the field. And, none of us have come up with any stand-out candidates to replace Barker and Milanovich should they be fired.

I'm willing to cut management some slack here.

We'll see in year 2 at BMO exactly how effective the improved game day experience has been in relation to attendance.
They overcharged and under delivered in 2016 and underestimated the apathy that exists in Toronto with the Argonauts.
This ownership is also part of the MLSE group so you would expect them to be able to plan a Grey Cup no?
Oh yeah besides the Grey Cup ticket pricing fiasco give them a pat on the back.
Outside of a few sound bites from Copeland this ownership group really hasn't had much to say.
The "wizards" on this forum (many of whom are ST holders) actually care enough to post here and are reacting to the abysmal on field performance in 2016.
Not that we'll ever find out but it will be interesting to see the renewal rates for this upcoming season.

[Argo57]

I had concerns about two major decisions Barker made this season, but I was going to reserve judgement until the season played out to see if the Argos would make the playoffs or not. Now that the team has been eliminated, I think it's fair to say he failed on both decisions, costing the team this year and possibly in the future.

Decision 1: Ricky Ray or Trevor Harris--Watching Harris live last year, I felt he passed the eye test. He had arrived and his arrow was pointing up. Ricky Ray could still manage the short passing game, but I was concerned with his apparent inability to stretch the field with the deep ball. Of course there was hope that with an offseason of rest his arm strength would return (which was touted in training camp), but one truism I know of in football is that it's better to give up on a player a year early than a year late. I believed the right move was to get younger at the QB position and invest in Harris as the number 1, but it didn't happen.

Decision 2: The Drew Willy trade. Another truism of football is draft the big guys early. A truism specific to the CFL is accumulate as much Canadian talent as possible. Put those two together and it highlights the value of keeping your first round draft picks to draft Canadian O-linemen. Barker gave away a first round pick+ for a QB that almost everyone expected to be released in the offseason for budgetary reasons. Did we acquire a mid-season difference maker? Obviously not. To be fair to Willy, give him a training camp and who knows, but we could have found that out without making the trade.

To see Barker so thoroughly mess up with the QB position suggests to me that the timing is right to make a change. The HC would have to go as well to allow the new GM to bring in his own man. Will changes lead to a playoff spot next year? Possibly not, but if the new regime is ready to go by year 2 the way Saskatchewan looks to be headed, that would be an achievement in my books.

Well stated Golden Fleece, no arguments here.
Your Decision 1 and 2 points are dead on!!

[Golden Fleece]

Is the QB situation solely on Barker though ?
Seems to me Milanovich played a big hand in Harris leaving and the Drew Willy trade, which Barker has said that Milanovich had pushed since Willy was benched in Winnipeg.

I think a good GM listens to his coach, but still sticks to his principles and takes care of the future. Regardless of why he made the decisions, he needs to be held accountable for them now.

[R.J]

I think a good GM listens to his coach, but still sticks to his principles and takes care of the future. Regardless of why he made the decisions, he needs to be held accountable for them now.

I agree, the buck stops at Barker, and because of that Barker deserve more of the blame, but Milanovich is hardly blameless in this situation. In saying that, what was Barker suppose to do after Milanovich's decision to start Ray over Harris ultimately lead to Harris leaving to be the starter elsewhere ?

[paulwoods13]

I agree, the buck stops at Barker, and because of that Barker deserve more of the blame, but Milanovich is hardly blameless in this situation. In saying that, what was Barker suppose to do after Milanovich's decision to start Ray over Harris ultimately lead to Harris leaving to be the starter elsewhere ?

A decision you supported, did you not?

[argotom]

Clean house period.

[paulwoods13]

Is there a better GM out there and available? If Hufnagel wanted to come here, then yes. Or Buono. But neither is likely to be available, and other than them I don't know of anyone I'd prefer over Barker. Trestman has never been a GM. I've said before that I wouldn't mind kicking his tires but he'd have to convince mgmt that he can either become an ace recruiter, or bring one in with him as Austin did with Tillman. I'd like Argos to bring Chris Rosetti back as a well-paid assistant GM and groom him to possibly take over in a year or two, but that may be a reach as he's still pretty young and inexperienced.

As for the coaches, I still like Milanovich in many ways but it seems clear his offensive scheme has either been caught up to by the league or can't possibly work without a strong o-line. I'm not at all convinced that Stubler should still be coaching in this league. I hate changing coordinators every year but I didn't like Stubler's system in 2007 and I don't like it any more now. Brady is just Milanovich's shadow so getting rid of him won't change the offence unless the head coach goes.

I'm not at all convinced that either Barker or Milanovich will be fired. Better chance Milanovich goes than both go, IMO.

[R.J]

A decision you supported, did you not?

I did, because Harris was playing poorly, and he deserved to get pulled. What's your point ?

I seem to recall admitting that I made a mistake when it came to Harris. I still don't think he'll ever be an elite QB, but I'd take him over anyone we currently have, then use Harris as the stop gap QB until the next young QB comes along. I think it was Angelo who brought up that while Harris is a good QB, he's not the type of QB that can lead a team in a playoff game or Grey Cup. Obviously if the team's good enough he could and potentially even win, but Kevin Glenn comes to mind.

[Golden Fleece]

I agree, the buck stops at Barker, and because of that Barker deserve more of the blame, but Milanovich is hardly blameless in this situation. In saying that, what was Barker suppose to do after Milanovich's decision to start Ray over Harris ultimately lead to Harris leaving to be the starter elsewhere ?

Milanovich had every right to play Ray late last year if he believed Ray gave the team the best chance to win in 2015. Once the season ended though, the onus shifted to Barker to sign the QBs on the roster for Milanovich to select from in 2016. The share of the blame matters little at this point. The new GM should choose the new coach. It's no fun starting from scratch, but it seems like it's time.

[argotom]

Milanovich had every right to play Ray late last year if he believed Ray gave the team the best chance to win in 2015. Once the season ended though, the onus shifted to Barker to sign the QBs on the roster for Milanovich to select from in 2016. The share of the blame matters little at this point. The new GM should choose the new coach. It's no fun starting from scratch, but it seems like it's time.

Milanovich has guessed wrong on every crucial decision involving Collaros and Harris.
How can any decent HC start a still injured Ray over Harris in the playoffs?
And then the stupidity of the man to continue with Ray this year and let Harris walk?
Ray has not have a winning season for years.