Aug 12 - Winnipeg Blue Bombers @ Toronto Argonauts

[mchesher03]

greydragon - too bad that's been your experience. Section 125 (behind the bench) has been pretty good so far, especially given that the Argos have been taking a beating for the majority of the time we've been in our seats so far this year!

Seeing the name Bishop I thought I'd see talk of what a great job Ken Bishop is doing at DT so far this year, think he's stolen Robertson's spot there (my opinion anyways). However, I do remember the excitement that the Bishop - Arland Bruce connection brought, it was very exciting while it lasted.

[argotom]

Totally disagree on Bishop, he played very well everywhere he went, he got all the blame when they lost, he had Glen Suitor on the air lobbying against him, Glen Suitor actually hated Bishop on a personal level and he got his brother on air guys to go along with him.

Rich Stubler wanted Bishop as his starter, Argos had promised him full control, the reason he always turned down multiple previous HC offers from several teams

Bishop was the players choice as well as the fans choice at the time, but he was the players choice, from Arlen Bruce down, even Kerry Joseph after leaving Toronto said, that was Bishop`s team, the facts are what they are

Bishop went on to Sask and Winnipeg and did very well, but when they lost it was all his fault, he had great games in Sask and Winnipeg, he went to both teams without a training camp and won both his first starts

Bishop was run out of the league absolutely, he was loved by the players but hated by the media, was going to link you to a clip on youtube with Bishops highlights from Sask and Winnipeg

And I am tired of people sh**tting on me for just giving my honest opinion, Micxhael Bishop was a great QB, he was demonized by Glen Suitor and co and many of you bought it hook line and sinker

My other favorite QBS are Tom Clements, Gilbert Renfroe, Joe Barnes Condredge holloway,Doug Flutie Matt Dunigan, Tom Burgess, just to mame a couple, and yes Bishop. Bishop was so exciting to watch nobody could throw the ball quite like him, I have Matt Dunigan on tape saying this about Bishop

I will link the youtube clip yjat I posted, of Bishop best game as a Blue Bomber he was magnificent, we will never know for sure what would have happened had Pinball not urged they go after Koseph, Stubler wanted no part in Joseph

Couldn't agree with you more about Bishop.
Had all kinds of up side and yes he did get jobbed here with the Argos after being promised the starter position.
Should have been the teams starting QB for years.
Had the best arm of any QB anywhere.

[Will]

I don't disagree that Bishop got short-changed in 2008, however, let us not pretend that he was a great superstar in this league. He was handed the starter's job pretty early in his CFL career (when he ought not to have been) and struggled mightily. He had to start in 2004 when Damon Allen broke his leg and I guess he played OK at times, but still threw only 6 TD's with 14 INT's in that stretch. It was defence and special teams that carried the Argos throughout much of that year and Bishop's stint as starter was no exception.

I do remember by the 2006 playoffs that many of us on here were clamoring for him to start that eastern final. He had come off the bench to lead the Argos over Winnipeg in the semi and replaced Allen in the east final and was respectable. That's why it was a shock for many of us when he was not the starter to begin the 2007 season. He looked good in beating Hamilton and great in beating Calgary, but suffered that injury. He returned on Labor Day against Hamilton and my recollection is that he was somewhat inconsistent for the rest of the year. There were wins over Montreal, Winnipeg and Edmonton where I wouldn't have necessarily classified his play as a primary reason for victory. It was again great defence and Dominique Dorsey that carried that team. That said, I was probably leaning towards his side in the Joseph-Bishop controversy, but nothing was going to right that ship in 2008 because there were aforementioned off-field issues that influenced that.

He never evolved into a superstar after he left so it isn't like his departure from Toronto is a great regret that ought to be compared to Collaros or Harris.

[R.J]

Bishop's issue was never his arm strength, it was his accuracy that was lacking big time. Bishop did get screwed over here in Toronto: IIRC Stubler wanted Bishop to be the guy, but was told from upper management (Pinball ?) to start Joseph, but Bishop did have the opportunity to be the guy in Winnipeg and didn't take full advantage. So I agree with Don Argo: let's not pretend that Bishop was a can't miss superstar.

[argotom]

Bishop's issue was never his arm strength, it was his accuracy that was lacking big time. Bishop did get screwed over here in Toronto: IIRC Stubler wanted Bishop to be the guy, but was told from upper management (Pinball ?) to start Joseph, but Bishop did have the opportunity to be the guy in Winnipeg and didn't take full advantage. So I agree with Don Argo: let's not pretend that Bishop was a can't miss superstar.

Maybe not, but I seem to recall the Patriots drafted him and wasn't he rated above Tom Brady?

[paulwoods13]

Maybe not, but I seem to recall the Patriots drafted him and wasn't he rated above Tom Brady?

Never was there a better example of how talent evaluators can get it wrong. And how overrated arm strength is.

[Gill The Thrill]

Maybe not, but I seem to recall the Patriots drafted him and wasn't he rated above Tom Brady?

A lot of guys were ranked ahead of Brady, but Brady had a brain to make smart decisions to go with his skills, Bishop did not. I'm not the biggest supporter of solely basing how much of a prospect someone is from a test, but I remember reading that Michael Bishop had one of the lowest scores in the history of the Wonderlic test, a test that given to QB prospects coming out of college. It's a test out of 40 and Bishop was in single digits. For the record, Dan Marino also had a low score on it, and Ryan Fitzpatrick was one of the guys to get a perfect score. So take it for what it's worth.

[Gill The Thrill]

Been jonesing for a fix of Bishop talk, that's for sure.

You made me laugh, good one. I didn't know you had it in you.

Never was there a better example of how talent evaluators can get it wrong. And how overrated arm strength is.

Agree with you for a change, (a big storm must be coming in...lol) as most may remember I was not exactly the President of the Michael Bishop fan club. Now to bring it back to the present, I'm a bit worried about going into this Saturday's game with Kilgore starting vs the Eskimos. Their defense may have turned the corner playing 2 pretty good games in a row. They lost a close one to Ottawa at TD place 23-20, and played pretty well at home, albeit to a poor Montreal offence. JC Sheritt has had picks in both games including the TD return in Ottawa. It is also a homecoming for 'Smos DC Mike Benevides, who'll want his D to be at their best. (Since when do DC's not want their D to play at their best)

[Gill The Thrill]

hate rehashing attendance things but wanted to note my complete agreement with Paul Woods in an earlier tweet where he noted that the people going to Argos games and paying full price are having a great time. My thoughts exactly - sick of the talk about #'s - the games are fun and I know my dad and me are having a great time. Now if we could do better than winning 1 of every 4 home games...

I'm having a good time going to the games too, and did feel better leaving the stadium after the Montreal game because of the win.

yeah I get that some may write off the Toronto home losses due to lack of crowd noise or whatever but Hamilton and Ottawa aren't really much better so far.

anyhow i'm just being greedy. As long as they're playing entertaining football - i'm generally happy,

Crowd noise has nothing to do with execution, play calling and being mentally prepared to play, but to be critical, it is debatable whether the Argos are playing entertaining football, particularly in the 2nd half of all their home games to Ottawa and Winnipeg, and in the opening half vs Hamilton in front of a full crowd.

Looking forward to seeing both Edmonton and BC at BMO. Both teams have been in the most entertaining games, BC twice, having lost in a thriller in Calgary 44-41, but beating the Cats at home 45-38. The Eskimos have been entertaining in both their losses to Ottawa, but interesting in that they blew that big lead at home to the Jeremiah Masoli lead Ticats. I really hope the Argos can keep up so it can be entertaining, but I have my concerns with a rookie starting and Ray injured.

[R.J]

Maybe not, but I seem to recall the Patriots drafted him and wasn't he rated above Tom Brady?

And ?
How many QB's were rated ahead of Brady, who's now considered one of, if not thee best QB ever to play in the NFL ?

It happens in all sports: highly rated guys that don't succeed in the pros - Alexandre Daigle, Patrik Stefan, Ryan Leaf, Eric Crouch, Troy Smith, vince Young, Jamarcus Russel, Shomari Williams, and Chris Bauman just to name a few.
Remember Canadian offensive linemen Scott Mitchell, who was on our roster for a while ? Do you recall that he was the highest rated player and offensive linemen in the 2011 draft. There was a rumour that Kyle Walters wanted Joe Mack to draft him instead of Henoc Muamba, and where is Mitchell now ?

Just because someone is highly rated coming out of college doesn't mean that they'll succeed in the pros.

[Argo57]

Never was there a better example of how talent evaluators can get it wrong. And how overrated arm strength is.

Truer words never spoken Paul, Bishop played like he had no clue half the time but at least he could throw the ball far!!!

[AngeloV]

Maybe not, but I seem to recall the Patriots drafted him and wasn't he rated above Tom Brady?

Did you see this one night when you were forced to watch NFL hi-lights? Honestly AT, I think you follow the NFL a lot more than you let on, and there is nothing wrong with that. Football is football.

[argotom]

Did you see this one night when you were forced to watch NFL hi-lights? Honestly AT, I think you follow the NFL a lot more than you let on, and there is nothing wrong with that. Football is football.

Yes AV, at one time I would watch an odd game of the No Funners, but not for many years.
Got bored to death overall and could not stand a 4+ hour game ad naseum.

[argolio]

Yes AV, at one time I would watch an odd game of the No Funners, but not for many years.
Got bored to death overall and could not stand a 4+ hour game ad naseum.

Under the current rules, I doubt the NFL has ever had a non-overtime four hour game, never mind ad nauseam.

Maybe your clock is broken.

[ArgoRavi]

I don't disagree that Bishop got short-changed in 2008, however, let us not pretend that he was a great superstar in this league. He was handed the starter's job pretty early in his CFL career (when he ought not to have been) and struggled mightily. He had to start in 2004 when Damon Allen broke his leg and I guess he played OK at times, but still threw only 6 TD's with 14 INT's in that stretch. It was defence and special teams that carried the Argos throughout much of that year and Bishop's stint as starter was no exception.

I do remember by the 2006 playoffs that many of us on here were clamoring for him to start that eastern final. He had come off the bench to lead the Argos over Winnipeg in the semi and replaced Allen in the east final and was respectable. That's why it was a shock for many of us when he was not the starter to begin the 2007 season. He looked good in beating Hamilton and great in beating Calgary, but suffered that injury. He returned on Labor Day against Hamilton and my recollection is that he was somewhat inconsistent for the rest of the year. There were wins over Montreal, Winnipeg and Edmonton where I wouldn't have necessarily classified his play as a primary reason for victory. It was again great defence and Dominique Dorsey that carried that team. That said, I was probably leaning towards his side in the Joseph-Bishop controversy, but nothing was going to right that ship in 2008 because there were aforementioned off-field issues that influenced that.

He never evolved into a superstar after he left so it isn't like his departure from Toronto is a great regret that ought to be compared to Collaros or Harris.

Bishop's issue was never his arm strength, it was his accuracy that was lacking big time. Bishop did get screwed over here in Toronto: IIRC Stubler wanted Bishop to be the guy, but was told from upper management (Pinball ?) to start Joseph, but Bishop did have the opportunity to be the guy in Winnipeg and didn't take full advantage. So I agree with Don Argo: let's not pretend that Bishop was a can't miss superstar.

Well said by both argofan87 and SnowRogue! I was part of the Four Horsemen who stuck behind and promoted Bishop the first few years he was in the league. I always liked to compare him with Ralph Dieter Brock. Both had incredibly strong arms and both needed to elevate their play from decent/good to great. Someone needs to write a book on Dieter Brock because he was good from 1974 to 1979 but elevated his game to great starting in 1980. I would love to know how he did it but he did. I waited years for Bishop to do the same but he could never elevate his game for any significant length of time. He was an Argo from 2002 until 2008 but by the time the Argos traded him, it was time for him to go and, frankly, I was exhausted trying to defend him by that point.

As argofan87 says, it looked like things were coming together for Bishop in the '06 playoffs and then at times during the '07 season. I thought that his best game, arguably, as a pro may have been the regular season finale in Regina in '07 which the Argos needed to win to finish in 1st place. He was outstanding that day. Then, two weeks later, he crapped the bed in the East Final at SkyDome which prevented the Argos from playing in a Toronto Grey Cup that year. That was a devastating loss and Bishop was just terrible. Rightly or wrongly, that precipitated the acquisition of Kerry Joseph the next season.

We really can't pretend that Bishop was anything more than an average, at best, QB in this league and I suspect that most CFL fans would call him "mediocre". Besides the '07 East Final, he was even worse the following year in the '08 West Semi-Final which B.C. easily won over the Riders and Bishop failed yet again in a must-win situation the next year when Winnipeg had a chance to make the playoffs on the final day with a home win over Hamilton. Bishop was terrible and the Ticats blew out the Bombers. That is three must-win games in three seasons that Bishop started and played horribly in. You simply cannot count him as one of the all-time greats with those performances.

And ?
How many QB's were rated ahead of Brady, who's now considered one of, if not thee best QB ever to play in the NFL ?

It happens in all sports: highly rated guys that don't succeed in the pros - Alexandre Daigle, Patrik Stefan, Ryan Leaf, Eric Crouch, Troy Smith, vince Young, Jamarcus Russel, Shomari Williams, and Chris Bauman just to name a few.
Remember Canadian offensive linemen Scott Mitchell, who was on our roster for a while ? Do you recall that he was the highest rated player and offensive linemen in the 2011 draft. There was a rumour that Kyle Walters wanted Joe Mack to draft him instead of Henoc Muamba, and where is Mitchell now ?

Just because someone is highly rated coming out of college doesn't mean that they'll succeed in the pros.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Do or Die]

As far as Bishop, when he was in the Peg......could drive one crazy. He would play a game, where you would be saying "wow look at this guy!" This would be followed by 3 games of "what the hell is he doing"

[KCargosfan]

Bishop was a great athlete with a great arm, but he didn't read defenses well or have great touch on his passes, and he relied on his legs too much at times. And that's just from watching him at K-State.

I didn't start following the league until he was at Winnipeg, and he was sub-par at best there.

[Argo]

Yes, when Bishop was on he was like Doug Flutie on super-mega-ultra-hyper-steroids.
Alas, through his own deficiencies, bad coaching and bad luck he could never become (even) an everyday quality QB.
However, CFL fans without an axe to grind thoroughly enjoyed, and remember with respect, Bishop's best games.

[ArgoRavi]

Yes, when Bishop was on he was like Doug Flutie on super-mega-ultra-hyper-steroids.
Alas, through his own deficiencies, bad coaching and bad luck he could never become (even) an everyday quality QB.
However, CFL fans without an axe to grind thoroughly enjoyed, and remember with respect, Bishop's best games.

To blame bad coaching and bad luck is to let Bishop off the hook IMO. Bishop himself admitted that his work ethic during his first few CFL seasons was not good. He had a variety of well-respected coaches during his time in the league including Adam Rita, Kent Austin, Steve Burratto and Mike Kelly (yes, I know that Kelly's head coaching tenure wasn't good but Matt Dunigan has always sworn by him as an offensive coach) and none of them could get Bishop to realize his potential.

Bishop did have some terrific games in this league but he was rarely able to put several of those together and those great games were usually surrounded by a number of subpar to poor ones.

[R.J]

To blame bad coaching and bad luck is to let Bishop off the hook IMO. Bishop himself admitted that his work ethic during his first few CFL seasons was not good. He had a variety of well-respected coaches during his time in the league including Adam Rita, Kent Austin, Steve Burratto and Mike Kelly (yes, I know that Kelly's head coaching tenure wasn't good but Matt Dunigan has always sworn by him as an offensive coach) and none of them could get Bishop to realize his potential.

Bishop did have some terrific games in this league but he was rarely able to put several of those together and those great games were usually surrounded by a number of subpar to poor ones.

Great post Ravi.