Sep. 23: Argonauts @ REDBLACKS

[ArgoRavi]

Can you not read the post...the FG would've made it 22-15. So that means it was 22-12, in the 4th quarter with about 3:50 left. They were in Ottawa territory if not inside 30, and they were in the opposite direction of where Hajrallahu missed that 53 yarder in the 2nd quarter.

Ottawa proceeded to get the ball immediately after that 3 and 5 miss and marched it right down the field for the winning TD. Has it come to the point when we're praising the Argo D for giving up 29 points. In Edmonton, fans are taking fits because their defense is giving up an average of 29 points. This Argos D never comes up with a stop when they need one...brutal all around, and of course, they fcuked me on Pick'em again.

I can read but I think that you are mistaken, Gill. The Argos were not anywhere near Ottawa territory at that point in the game. When they tried that 3rd and 5, they were around their own 40 yard line as I recall.

The Argo defence gave up 22 points but 7 of those - and the only TD they allowed - was in garbage time at the end after the offence failed on that aforementioned 3rd and 5 in their own end of the field. They didn't lose that game last night because of their defence.

[ArgoRavi]

The Argo offence had a refreshing new look in the first 2 games with LeFevour at the helm, they seemed to abandon the plan last night.
Willy made some nice throws last night and a few crap ones as well, the O philosophy has to be completely changed heading into 2017, only way to accomplish this is clean out the coaching staff (and GM) IMO.
Status quo ain't working and will only lead to drastic declines in attendance in 2017 and beyond, they can't keep shovelling the same shit at the fans and expect them to return.
On more than one occasion this season I have wondered why I am shelling out premium $$ for such a boring predictable on field product (and I know I'm not alone), I have also given tickets to a couple of friends who have never been to a CFL game both left wondering why I talk up the entertainment value of the CFL (Argonauts in particular) so much.

Ottawa's defence knew what LeFevour was capable of and they took away the running game and forced him to be a pocket passer. Unfortunately, as we have now seen, being a pocket passer is not LeFevour's strength.

[argotom]

There is nothing worse than uninspiring boring football on the offensive side especially, losing to boot while trying to attract and keep fans at the new wonderful experience at BMO.
We have to clean house not only for the mess Barker and Milanovich have made as well documented with Collaros and Harris, but for the future.

[BATKINSON001]

There is nothing worse than uninspiring boring football on the offensive side especially, losing to boot while trying to attract and keep fans at the new wonderful experience at BMO.
We have to clean house not only for the mess Barker and Milanovich have made as well documented with Collaros and Harris, but for the future.

. This.

[argotom]

Ottawa's defence knew what LeFevour was capable of and they took away the running game and forced him to be a pocket passer. Unfortunately, as we have now seen, being a pocket passer is not LeFevour's strength.

Ravi, I don't want a predictable drop back passer.
That's not a CFL blueprint.
Give me a playground type to energize especially the fans.
The mould is Flutie like and regrettably there are not too many that come around.
But when they do the stupidity of letting one slip through your fingers is unimaginable.

[Argo57]

Ottawa's defence knew what LeFevour was capable of and they took away the running game and forced him to be a pocket passer. Unfortunately, as we have now seen, being a pocket passer is not LeFevour's strength.

Valid points Ravi but as I've said before top to bottom this isn't a very good football team right now.
One positive from last nights game was McFadden's play, he stepped up with some nice hits and didn't get carried off the field, hopefully he can build on that.

[ArgoRavi]

Ravi, I don't want a predictable drop back passer.
That's not a CFL blueprint.
Give me a playground type to energize especially the fans.
The mould is Flutie like and regrettably there are not too many that come around.
But when they do the stupidity of letting one slip through your fingers is unimaginable.

I like mobile QBs myself, AT, but they have to be able to pass the football. LeFevour just isn't a good enough passer to be a #1 QB in this league. Do you remember Ken Hobart? He was the same and did little after a good rookie season in 1985. Kevin Mason is yet another example of a mobile QB who couldn't throw. The Argos need to find their own Jonathan Jennings. Yes, I know that they already did with Collaros but that ship has long sailed.

[Argo57]

I can read but I think that you are mistaken, Gill. The Argos were not anywhere near Ottawa territory at that point in the game. When they tried that 3rd and 5, they were around their own 40 yard line as I recall.

The Argo defence gave up 22 points but 7 of those - and the only TD they allowed - was in garbage time at the end after the offence failed on that aforementioned 3rd and 5 in their own end of the field. They didn't lose that game last night because of their defence.

You can spin it anyway you want Ravi but the point Gill made in regards to the Argonaut D coming up small when needed most is valid IMO.
Time after time this season it has happened, they give up easy first downs when a stop is most needed which allows the other team to use up valuable time off the clock.

[ArgoRavi]

Valid points Ravi but as I've said before top to bottom this isn't a very good football team right now.
One positive from last nights game was McFadden's play, he stepped up with some nice hits and didn't get carried off the field, hopefully he can build on that.

Last night was incredibly disappointing to me as they really did not look like a playoff team. I thought that they played well defensively but the special teams - other than the punt block - was abysmal once again and we have already discussed the offence ad nauseam. They have only had all three phases working very well together on one or two occasions all season and until they can do that consistently, they aren't going anywhere this season.

[ArgoRavi]

You can spin it anyway you want Ravi but the point Gill made in regards to the Argonaut D coming up small when needed most is valid IMO.
Time after time this season it has happened, they give up easy first downs when a stop is most needed which allows the other team to use up valuable time off the clock.

The one thing I will blame them for last night was allowing a huge first down - a 30 yard play IIRC - when they had Ottawa deep in their own end after the Argos had scored that TD in the 4th quarter. They needed a stop there and didn't come up with one until a few plays later.

I think that another issue that has hurt both the offence and defence overall this season is the lousy special teams. The Argos have lost the field position game far too much this season which has put their defence in difficult positions with shorter fields to defend and their offence with long fields to have to navigate.

[Argo57]

The one thing I will blame them for last night was allowing a huge first down - a 30 yard play IIRC - when they had Ottawa deep in their own end after the Argos had scored that TD in the 4th quarter. They needed a stop there and didn't come up with one until a few plays later.

I think that another issue that has hurt both the offence and defence overall this season is the lousy special teams. The Argos have lost the field position game far too much this season which has put their defence in difficult positions with shorter fields to defend and their offence with long fields to have to navigate.

Barker has failed miserably in finding a decent solution in regards to the Kick/Punt returning game which routinely puts the Argos at a field position disadvantage.
Hamilton seem to have great success in finding this talent (Chris Williams, Speedy B) etc.

[OV Argo]

I like mobile QBs myself, AT, but they have to be able to pass the football. LeFevour just isn't a good enough passer to be a #1 QB in this league. Do you remember Ken Hobart? He was the same and did little after a good rookie season in 1985. Kevin Mason is yet another example of a mobile QB who couldn't throw. The Argos need to find their own Jonathan Jennings. Yes, I know that they already did with Collaros but that ship has long sailed.

So, you believe LeFevour isn\t a good enough "passer" to be a #1 QB in this league but Willy IS ??? Not sure how you would arrive at this conclusion, other than wanting to buy into what you've been told/sold by the Argos' braintrust. LeFevour is easily as good a passer as Willy is, IMO, and maybe better; he also has another QB asset in that he is big/strong and can run. Neither is this great pure passing QB to run that Millanovich simpleton all short pass offence, if that's what you are led to believe either. Jennings would do zip trying to run this offence either, except maybe throw lots of picks.

[Neely2005]

A better question now is how many here are?
I bet not many.

Start a Poll if you want to find out.

[argotom]

I like mobile QBs myself, AT, but they have to be able to pass the football. LeFevour just isn't a good enough passer to be a #1 QB in this league. Do you remember Ken Hobart? He was the same and did little after a good rookie season in 1985. Kevin Mason is yet another example of a mobile QB who couldn't throw. The Argos need to find their own Jonathan Jennings. Yes, I know that they already did with Collaros but that ship has long sailed.

Yes fair enough, how can I forget Hobart, boy did he flame out.
Of course the QB has to be able to throw and I myself have evaluated Dan as between poor to average arm.
Still though in the first 2 games he found a way to get the ball downfield and made some nice long throws, quite surprising.
Regardless, the alternative of a pocket passer like Ray and Willy in a Milanovich style offense is offensive on its own.
We all know a prototypical CFL passer cannot be an immobile drop back passer and especially in this day and age of intricate mix and match type defensive schemes.
Mitchell in Calgary seems to be an exception but I attribute this to the excellent coaching and OC over the years from Dickensen.
Clearly Milanovich is not in his league, however lucky he may have been with the pieces falling into place in 12.
Like you said with Zach, the ship has clearly sailed for the HC and GM.

[Neely2005]

I hate criticizing the officials, and they had nothing to do with us losing this game, but you are right -- the horrendous inconsistency has been evident all season long. And the stupid challenges have got to go. I'm at the point where I'd eliminate challenges altogether. They just suck all the life out of the games.

I agree with you but I'd like to see if there's some way to improve the challenge system just because the officiating is so broken and inconsistent that it needs some kind of check and balance.

[Argo]

I like mobile QBs myself, AT, but they have to be able to pass the football. LeFevour just isn't a good enough passer to be a #1 QB in this league. Do you remember Ken Hobart? He was the same and did little after a good rookie season in 1985. Kevin Mason is yet another example of a mobile QB who couldn't throw. The Argos need to find their own Jonathan Jennings. Yes, I know that they already did with Collaros but that ship has long sailed.

Yes, all things more or less equal, the mobile QB is tailor-made for the CFL.

The problem I have with punctually writing off LeFevour (as a starter) is that he does make some nice throws. Is his variability coachable (and, in particular, coachable by Milanovich) and so correctable? I don't know.

IIRC, Hobart, and the more recent QB the Argos signed who could run but not throw a decent pass (Eric Crouch? How quickly they forget.) were not at LeFevour's level of talent (of which we have some idea at least).

[Gill The Thrill]

Yes, all things more or less equal, the mobile QB is tailor-made for the CFL.

The problem I have with punctually writing off LeFevour (as a starter) is that he does make some nice throws. Is his variability coachable (and, in particular, coachable by Milanovich) and so correctable? I don't know.

IIRC, Hobart, and the more recent QB the Argos signed who could run but not throw a decent pass (Eric Crouch? How quickly they forget.) were not at LeFevour's level of talent (of which we have some idea at least).

You can coach making smart decisions for a roll out QB who does not possess the strongest arm, but for that you need a "smart" coach of which Milanovich is not....he'd rather lose with a statue behind an offensive line that is as secure as a New Orleans levee during Hurricane Katrina. (I know it's a horrible analogy, but it's the exact thing that came to mind when thinking of how leaky the performance of the offensive line has been all year).

By the way, this drop back shit is starting to become a trend in the east, which is why they've done terrible in the last 2 years in the second half after starting off well vs West teams. Harris is a statuesque QB in Ottawa, and Kent Austin is insistent on making Collaros play like he did, even though he is capable of rolling out, and even did more of it when he was with the Argos.

Funny you brought up Eric Crouch, I actually thought the Argos showed very little patience with him. His arm was better than Lefevour and his feet were quicker. Let's not give coaches and GM's so much credit in the CFL. These were the same, may I dare call them Good Ol Boys, (as I quote OV) in the history of the league that referred to a Hamilton DB from MacMaster as not a great prospect, but a #4 guy on the QB depth chart in the early 60s. Turns out that Canadian guy who was a DB and a depth QB had the best arm to ever play during his era, Russ Jackson. Don't get me wrong, neither Lefevour or Crouch can throw anywhere like Jackson, but they could sure run and buy themselves some time the way Jackson and Flutie could. Rickey Ray and Drew Willy cannot.

[Reggiemac]

So true, the defence had a decent game but thevoffence took the nite off, the only bright lightbon offence was drew willy. I think he should start the next game. A better arm than Lefevour for sure. And we still need a running threat. Whittaker has been playing well but it would be nice to have a bruising runnervwho can break long gains consistently. Ottawa has defended Lefevour very well and are not afraid of his s arm so other teams will defence him in upcoming games. Willy comes at a great time, we need his arm going forward. McFadden helped the D a lot but it will be better again when Greenwood returns.

[Reggiemac]

Checked out Ben Malena, the new RB that was just signed to the PR. His youtube is impressive, a hard runner who breaks quite a few tacklescand can outrun defences to score long TDs. Hopefully they will start him soon. Inclemet weather is a possibility and we need a running threat.

[paulwoods13]

The problem I have with punctually writing off LeFevour (as a starter) is that he does make some nice throws.

In two games he made one really nice throw -- the long pass to Shaw while rolling out last week. He made a ton of truly terrible throws, forcing his receivers to either try one-handed grabs or missing them altogether. The one that really convinced me was the missed TD pass to an open Elliott in the end zone. That throw had to be made, and wasn't.

It's amazing to me how some posters' hatred of Barker, Milanovich and Willy is blinding them to the reality that LeFevour is one of the poorest passers we have seen in a long time. His legs don't compensate for being unable to pass if the defence stops him from running.