Sep. 23: Argonauts @ REDBLACKS

[Reggiemac]

A serious running threat would reslly help our offence. Right now the defenses have it easy. Drop into coverage and let us throw checkdown passes all nite. Thats what other offenses do to us but with no running threat we are stuck but other teams run the ball and force the defenses out of that pattern. We have to dictate to the defence and with no running threat we dont have the tools to do the job.break a few long runs andvthe defences will get out of their 3 man wide spaced D line with everyone back type defence which we see a lot of. Stubs pioneered it and just about every team in the cfl has copied it. The best way todefeat it is run the ball. Start the new RB they signed and things might get better fast.

[argotom]

That maybe true about checkdowns, but the problem seems to be the Argo receivers don't get open past the 1st down markers. I watch other CFL games, other teams receivers are running north/south when the catch a pass. In the Argo scheme, they seem to be either standing still or running east/west. Defenses are able to react much quicker and force the punt more often than not.
I have read that Milanovich's system does not allow any freelancing. Perhaps it would be more productive if it did.

Precisely, check down passes at 5 yards when you need 8 or 8 when you need 10.
That is the definition of insanity.
The passing scheme of going horizontal versus vertical.
All things considered, I rather stretch the D out going mid to long than the Milanovich fail safe check down variety.

[PullTogether73]

YAC yards

YAC yards

Why do people refer to "YAC yards"?
The "Y" stands for yards. Saying YAC yards is redundant.

Do people refer to RBI runs or ERA average in baseball?

[ArgoGabe22]

Why do people refer to "YAC yards"?
The "Y" stands for yards. Saying YAC yards is redundant.

Do people refer to RBI runs or ERA average in baseball?

Because Glen Suitor says so.

[Ron]

All things considered, I rather stretch the D out going mid to long than the Milanovich fail safe check down variety.

But you need two things for that to happen. QB having time and receivers being open. Many times we see the dreaded check down because either or both do not occur.

[PullTogether73]

Because Glen Suitor says so.

LOL!
So true!
He is the worst culprit for saying YAC yards.
I've got to find a way to contact him and point out how stupid it is.

[1971GreyCup]

LOL!
So true!
He is the worst culprit for saying YAC yards.
I've got to find a way to contact him and point out how stupid it is.

Try Twitter

[AngeloV]

But you need two things for that to happen. QB having time and receivers being open. Many times we see the dreaded check down because either or both do not occur.

Exactly what I've been saying forever. The anti check down people act as if the check down is the first read on the play. It is always the last resort.

[PullTogether73]

Exactly what I've been saying forever. The anti check down people act as if the check down is the first read on the play. It is always the last resort.

Possibly.
But given the frequency with which the check down is employed (usually unsuccessfully) by Argonaut QBs, it appears that there is a serious personnel/performance deficiency on the offence.

Mr. Barker, your response please?

Also, perhaps it is a nomenclature error. I have seen far too many swing passes employed in 2nd and ? situations that fail to achieve the necessary yards. Those technically are not check down passes but designed play calls from the coaches.
Totally frustrating to see repeatedly, and fuel for the "Fire Milanovich" brigade.

[AngeloV]

Possibly.
But given the frequency with which the check down is employed (usually unsuccessfully) by Argonaut QBs, it appears that there is a serious personnel/performance deficiency on the offence.

Mr. Barker, your response please?

Also, perhaps it is a nomenclature error. I have seen far too many swing passes employed in 2nd and ? situations that fail to achieve the necessary yards. Those technically are not check down passes but designed play calls from the coaches.
Totally frustrating to see repeatedly, and fuel for the "Fire Milanovich" brigade.

First down production is the key. The Argos seem to have issues with this. There were lots of check downs by every team in the league this past weekend. The Argos were in 2nd and long a lot (and have been most of the season) which really limits what you can do. BC and Edmonton both checked down on numerous occasions on 2nd down and punted as a result. The difference being that both teams had some big first down gains (especially Edmonton with Bell running) which gave them considerably more options on 2nd down.

[ArgoGabe22]

First down production is the key. The Argos seem to have issues with this. There were lots of check downs by every team in the league this past weekend. The Argos were in 2nd and long a lot (and have been most of the season) which really limits what you can do. BC and Edmonton both checked down on numerous occasions on 2nd down and punted as a result. The difference being that both teams had some big first down gains (especially Edmonton with Bell running) which gave them considerably more options on 2nd down.

There were two games a few weeks ago where Collaros and Reilly both threw it deep on 3rd down trying to score and I think Collaros threw an INT and Reilly's was incomplete. Both times they had enough time on the clock to just get the first down and they both had players open on the checkdown, which would've given them a new set of downs. These are two perfect examples of how a checkdown could be useful. There is nothing wrong with the checkdown as a last result, its better than turning over the ball.

[Neely2005]

Why do people refer to "YAC yards"?
The "Y" stands for yards. Saying YAC yards is redundant.

Do people refer to RBI runs or ERA average in baseball?

People do the same thing with SIN Number and PIN Number.

[argotom]

Exactly what I've been saying forever. The anti check down people act as if the check down is the first read on the play. It is always the last resort.

Sure it is when you are primarily a drop back pocket passer, like Ray and Willy.
However when you are a roll out variety, yes like Dan then the check down is non existent as this playground variety makes things happen.
Basic jail break with the receivers breaking routes coming back to the passer or gaining positive yards by the QB.
A defensive(and coordinator's) nightmare.

[AngeloV]

Sure it is when you are primarily a drop back pocket passer, like Ray and Willy.
However when you are a roll out variety, yes like Dan then the check down is non existent as this playground variety makes things happen.
Basic jail break with the receivers breaking routes coming back to the passer or gaining positive yards by the QB.
A defensive(and coordinator's) nightmare.

I think you are generalizing. Go watch this weekend's games on demand. Jennings, Reilly, Durant and Collaros all checked down a lot, and they are all very mobile QB's. Collaros has led the vaunted Ti-Cats offence to 21,20 and 18 points the last 3 games. How is that any better than what the Argos do on offence?

[argotom]

I think you are generalizing. Go watch this weekend's games on demand. Jennings, Reilly, Durant and Collaros all checked down a lot, and they are all very mobile QB's. Collaros has led the vaunted Ti-Cats offence to 21,20 and 18 points the last 3 games. How is that any better than what the Argos do on offence?

It's interesting you mention these 4 as they are all mobile and can tuck the ball to make things happen either with the rush or throwing on the run.
Not what Ray or Willy are known for other than check downs when the receivers are covered.
As for Collaros yes I have noticed he is struggling somewhat.
Still though there is no question I will take him hands down anytime even currently versus what we have.
Even you have to realize his upside as it is only a matter of time before he get's it going to his usual 300+ yards.
Just like hitters and pitchers who go through slumps.

[AngeloV]

It's interesting you mention these 4 as they are all mobile and can tuck the ball to make things happen either with the rush or throwing on the run.
Not what Ray or Willy are known for other than check downs when the receivers are covered.
As for Collaros yes I have noticed he is struggling somewhat.
Still though there is no question I will take him hands down anytime even currently versus what we have.
Even you have to realize his upside as it is only a matter of time before he get's it going to his usual 300+ yards.
Just like hitters and pitchers who go through slumps.

He's still getting his 300 yard games, but not putting up points, which really is the bottom line. It's funny how everyone said that if Masoli can get the Cats to around .500 when Collaros returns, they'd be in great shape. Well their record with Masoli starting was 3-3, and their record with Collaros starting is 3-4, despite having played twice against Saskatchewan, and once against Montreal and twice against the Argos, who everyone on here says are a horrible team, with no QB.

[OV Argo]

That maybe true about checkdowns, but the problem seems to be the Argo receivers don't get open past the 1st down markers. I watch other CFL games, other teams receivers are running north/south when the catch a pass. In the Argo scheme, they seem to be either standing still or running east/west. Defenses are able to react much quicker and force the punt more often than not.
I have read that Milanovich's system does not allow any freelancing. Perhaps it would be more productive if it did.

Yep.

Millanovich and Brady clearly have more faith in check-down passes, OR designed 5 yard completions , or east-west going nowhere completions, and then 2 and out - seems to be the staple of their offence, and really pathetic to watch at times.

The recent Calgary / Bombers game had both QBs throwing well down the field often, trying to hit receivers on the move or in stride.

And I'd take a solid RB who can get me a good 4 to 6 yards on first down, and sometimes break decent 10+ yard gainers, supplemented by a more explosive change of pace back who can maybe break the odd 30+ yard run, plus a mobile QB - as the staple, key players in my offence over an average to iffy arm QB completing mostly check downs (or else throwing a 0 yard gain incompletion, or getting sacked, or throwing a pick) as the main focus of the offence; that's just me though - Millanovich & Brady love the 4 to 6 yard pass completion thinking.

[doubleblue]

He's still getting his 300 yard games, but not putting up points, which really is the bottom line. It's funny how everyone said that if Masoli can get the Cats to around .500 when Collaros returns, they'd be in great shape. Well their record with Masoli starting was 3-3, and their record with Collaros starting is 3-4, despite having played twice against Saskatchewan, and once against Montreal and twice against the Argos, who everyone on here says are a horrible team, with no QB.

I don't think I ever said they were horrible. I think they're terrible.

[AngeloV]

I don't think I ever said they were horrible. I think they're terrible.

LOL. My point being all I've read all year is how much further ahead Hamilton is as far as a current organization from top to bottom compared to the Argos. They are all of 2 points ahead, and have not improved with the addition of Collaros. So are they really that much ahead of the Argos?

[PullTogether73]

And I'd take a solid RB who can get me a good 4 to 6 yards on first down, and sometimes break decent 10+ yard gainers, supplemented by a more explosive change of pace back who can maybe break the odd 30+ yard run, plus a mobile QB - as the staple, key players in my offence over an average to iffy arm QB completing mostly check downs (or else throwing a 0 yard gain incompletion, or getting sacked, or throwing a pick) as the main focus of the offence; that's just me though - Millanovich & Brady love the 4 to 6 yard pass completion thinking.

Good wish list.
Do you have any suggestions as to who you would choose to fill those positions from the current personnel in the CFL?
I would think the Eskimos' Reilly or Lions' Jennings would suit for the QB position.