"If I was Michael Copeland" - Ideas for Argos off-the-field 2017 Thread

[ArgoGabe22]

Why do you not use paragraphs or line breaks in your very long posts?

Also, for correctness, the NFL became the NFL in 1922. The CFL became the CFL in 1958. The NFL is the league that is almost 100 years old while the CFL is the one that is a bit older than 50 years.

While true, Canadian football has its origins much much older than 50 years. Some would say the CFL was pretty much in existence when there was ORFU and the other leagues like the IRFU. It just wasn't called the CFL until 1958.

[1971GreyCup]

Clearly, they are not reading the market correctly still, I will eat my hat (not literally, as I like my hat ) if they have more STH next year than this year -- this season ticket base will drop significantly next year, I highly doubt that any significant amount of "new STH" are joining the fray after this year, what about the product would entice you to buy seats in 2017 if you didn't have seats in 2016? a few perks that are way less buzzworthy than last off-season's idea of a "new stadium", better atmosphere, chance to get GC tickets, almost all of which did not come to pass in any well publicized way other than that the new stadium was better for football than the last one. The press was all negative about it being empty (why do I need to buy seats in advance again? and the GC thing was screwed up badly and needed fixing almost immediately which pissed many people off), based on the many people I've spoken to (collectively about 100STs), many existing STH are going to be dropping seats that they thought would have some added value based on the move to BMO, and many simply are just not renewing at all as the perceived value is not there for their entertainment dollar --- in Toronto as someone rightly mentioned above, there are just too many options out there to spend one's entertainment money on - if there is no "buzz" about this being an "event", people just won't go in this city....the product unfortunately will not just sell itself, as much as us CFL lovers would like to believe......the fact that they are not marketing the crap out of this to families and such is beyond me --- you should be able to buy a ticket for $10 or less to take a kid under 14 (?) to a game, get young people into your product, before they become older and jaded about the the state of the CFL and whether they perceive it to be a "second rate" league compared to the NFL (whether we like it or not, Toronto has a "major league" mentality), as once that mindset kicks in, it is hard to change. Again, I'm a CFL fan, but I am around College aged kids all the time and we actually had the Grey Cup come to our school recently, and literally there was no buzz whatsoever to even go and take a picture with the trophy this past week -- I literally just walked up and could spend as much time as I wanted with it (which was quite cool frankly!!) and almost no one was even bothering with this important piece of Canadian history right in front of them, it was quite sad actually, the kids were having more fun throwing a football around than actually learning anything about the CFL (no one I spoke to could even name a current Argos player) -- there was literally a table there with a chart explaining the rule differences between the CFL and the NFL....ummm, if our league is so awesome to begin with why are we having to teach people the rules from a 100+ year old league in relation to one that is only 50+ years old....it's because people aren't actively engaged in their product, the kids liked "Football", just not this type of football, it was really sad for someone who is a long time CFL lover to see......

I had a similar experience with my son's high school. I offered to sponsor "Huddle Up". There was no interest at all from the school even though there are a number of CFL players who live locally.

Students have no knowledge or interest in the CFL, but find the NFL cool. My son's teacher openly challenged my son's contention that the SkyDome was built for the Blue Jays AND Argos. Fortunately my son's knowledge is greater than this person in authority.

I remember a similar situation 35 years ago, but there was a baseline of Argos/CFL.

Even among high school and local rep football teams, a number of the players have a disdain for CFL players. I can trace that back to the parents who openly trash the league. Doesn't bode well for the future of the league in the CFL.

[Argos1983]

Sorry for my lack of appropriate punctuation and spacing.....when I rant its more a stream of consciousness (or BS), kind of thing.....

As for the history, I was just referring to the fact of over 100 years of Grey Cups vs 50 years or so of Super Bowls, the point was they've both been around a long time, those who who are interested in football in this country should know the basic differences by now....

[Shatto]

Argos 1983, makes an excellent point about inexpensive tickets for young people. Either through a sponsor, such as a grocery chain, as AngeloV suggested or directly from the organization. How about having local high school teams that have won a championship presented on field, before the game or at halftime - imagine their folks, relatives and friends would be pleased to be there to see that, especially if the can buy tickets at a reduced price. The team has to create a buzz and get bums on seats!! Copeland needs to be creative.

[PullTogether73]

Splittings hairs??

Being accurate.

Sorry for my lack of appropriate punctuation and spacing.....when I rant its more a stream of consciousness (or BS), kind of thing.....

As for the history, I was just referring to the fact of over 100 years of Grey Cups vs 50 years or so of Super Bowls, the point was they've both been around a long time, those who who are interested in football in this country should know the basic differences by now....

I figured that's what you meant - just that it wasn't what you said.
Agreed that education of a long running sport tradition in this country should not be necessary.
Canadians invented this game after all and Americans changed it to suit their stadiums (afaik).

I don't understand what is so shameful about being Canadian and appreciating Canadian institutions and traditions.
My parents came from a small country in South America. They made sure to take me to Maple Leafs, Argonauts, Metro-Croatia (soccer) games as a child and expose me to Canadian sporting institutions. I've been a fan ever since.
Today it's soccer and cricket. That's fine, but...?

[paulwoods13]

Not that this really matters, but I'm surprised by how many people were surprised to learn how hot it is on the east side in afternoons and early evenings. The same conditions applied to a good chunk of the Rogers Centre east side when the roof was open on a sunny day. Granted the RC is cavernous enough that some shadows emerge as the sun moves, but I stopped sitting on the east side years ago because it was way too hot and sunny at times. I hope this does not become a serious impediment to selling tickets over there as the years go on. I would not argue against cheaper tickets on that side, to encourage fuller stands there. And lots of evening games.

[Will]

Not that this really matters, but I'm surprised by how many people were surprised to learn how hot it is on the east side in afternoons and early evenings. The same conditions applied to a good chunk of the Rogers Centre east side when the roof was open on a sunny day. Granted the RC is cavernous enough that some shadows emerge as the sun moves, but I stopped sitting on the east side years ago because it was way too hot and sunny at times. I hope this does not become a serious impediment to selling tickets over there as the years go on. I would not argue against cheaper tickets on that side, to encourage fuller stands there. And lots of evening games.

Is it an issue for other teams in the league or in other sports or is it merely another excuse for the Toronto marketplace?

[S.A.C.]

...we actually had the Grey Cup come to our school recently...

I was going to ask if anyone was surprised or confused by the inscription -- "Amateur Rugby"?! -- but I guess from your description almost no one bothered to look at it.

[Argos1983]

I was going to ask if anyone was surprised or confused by the inscription -- "Amateur Rugby"?! -- but I guess from your description almost no one bothered to look at it.

Sadly no one was looking that closely....

[Neely2005]

You forgot to add the word "yet" at the end.

Sadly. Argo prices are not far off prices in other CFL cities. Plus the last thing they want to be seen doing is devaluing the product so quickly. In their letter they state that they doubled the ST's and increased attendance significantly. They already previously stated they significantly increased revenues compared to the past.

So clearly they are attempting to have crowds grow into current pricing than to lower pricing and have to make the same effort to sell the tix.

Anyways. Good letter from the ownership that should cut down on the doom and gloom.

Does anyone else think that season ticket numbers are going down next season?

No Grey Cup

Team was terrible in 2016

Traded away the first overall pick for an average QB

BMO Field novelty has worn off

People know that there will be lots of tickets available for every game

In season ticket pricing promotions

Alienated some of the existing season ticket holders

Some season ticket holders increased their number of season tickets from the Rogers Centre and will now decrease the number back down

[Neely2005]

Clearly, they are not reading the market correctly still, I will eat my hat (not literally, as I like my hat ) if they have more STH next year than this year -- this season ticket base will drop significantly next year, I highly doubt that any significant amount of "new STH" are joining the fray after this year, what about the product would entice you to buy seats in 2017 if you didn't have seats in 2016? a few perks that are way less buzzworthy than last off-season's idea of a "new stadium", better atmosphere, chance to get GC tickets, almost all of which did not come to pass in any well publicized way other than that the new stadium was better for football than the last one. The press was all negative about it being empty (why do I need to buy seats in advance again? and the GC thing was screwed up badly and needed fixing almost immediately which pissed many people off), based on the many people I've spoken to (collectively about 100STs), many existing STH are going to be dropping seats that they thought would have some added value based on the move to BMO, and many simply are just not renewing at all as the perceived value is not there for their entertainment dollar --- in Toronto as someone rightly mentioned above, there are just too many options out there to spend one's entertainment money on - if there is no "buzz" about this being an "event", people just won't go in this city....the product unfortunately will not just sell itself, as much as us CFL lovers would like to believe......the fact that they are not marketing the crap out of this to families and such is beyond me --- you should be able to buy a ticket for $10 or less to take a kid under 14 (?) to a game, get young people into your product, before they become older and jaded about the the state of the CFL and whether they perceive it to be a "second rate" league compared to the NFL (whether we like it or not, Toronto has a "major league" mentality), as once that mindset kicks in, it is hard to change. Again, I'm a CFL fan, but I am around College aged kids all the time and we actually had the Grey Cup come to our school recently, and literally there was no buzz whatsoever to even go and take a picture with the trophy this past week -- I literally just walked up and could spend as much time as I wanted with it (which was quite cool frankly!!) and almost no one was even bothering with this important piece of Canadian history right in front of them, it was quite sad actually, the kids were having more fun throwing a football around than actually learning anything about the CFL (no one I spoke to could even name a current Argos player) -- there was literally a table there with a chart explaining the rule differences between the CFL and the NFL....ummm, if our league is so awesome to begin with why are we having to teach people the rules from a 100+ year old league in relation to one that is only 50+ years old....it's because people aren't actively engaged in their product, the kids liked "Football", just not this type of football, it was really sad for someone who is a long time CFL lover to see......

Well I guess I'm not the only one who thinks that season ticket numbers are going down next season.

[S.A.C.]

http://www.tsn.ca/cfl/video/how-to-f...toronto~987914

When he mentions needing the minor league hockey/baseball approach targeting groups sales, the only relevant example I can think of would be the Marlies. I don't pay much attention to them, but I was under the impression that they've usually had only small crowds except for 2 or 3 times a year when they have 11 a.m. weekday games and arrange for a few thousand school kids to be there.
http://www.marlies.ca/tickets/SchoolGroups.asp

I don't understand how that could apply to the Argos, since it's not realistic to suggest having a weekday game start at 11 a.m.!

[Neely2005]

Being accurate.



I figured that's what you meant - just that it wasn't what you said.
Agreed that education of a long running sport tradition in this country should not be necessary.
Canadians invented this game after all and Americans changed it to suit their stadiums (afaik).

I don't understand what is so shameful about being Canadian and appreciating Canadian institutions and traditions.
My parents came from a small country in South America. They made sure to take me to Maple Leafs, Argonauts, Metro-Croatia (soccer) games as a child and expose me to Canadian sporting institutions. I've been a fan ever since.
Today it's soccer and cricket. That's fine, but...?

As I've said before Canadians (especially Torontonians) love to run down anything that's Canadian. It doesn't matter if it's the CFL, BlackBerry, Canadian Film and TV...

[Neely2005]

Is it an issue for other teams in the league or in other sports or is it merely another excuse for the Toronto marketplace?

Not all stadiums face the same direction so it may be minimized at other stadiums.

[AngeloV]

Why do you not use paragraphs or line breaks in your very long posts?

.

I'd much rather have poor sentence structure than crappy subject matter. I'm good with his posts.

Even among high school and local rep football teams, a number of the players have a disdain for CFL players. I can trace that back to the parents who openly trash the league. Doesn't bode well for the future of the league in the CFL.

And I'll go back to what I have been saying for years. Society today equates quality with revenue and salaries. Really is sad. Since many players in the NFL make more money than an entire teams cap in the CFL, they look down upon it.

Well I guess I'm not the only one who thinks that season ticket numbers are going down next season.

I think they will increase again. IMO, they haven't even scratched the surface in corporate and group sales. Everything just seemed so rushed in 2016.

[Neely2005]

I'd much rather have poor sentence structure than crappy subject matter. I'm good with his posts.



And I'll go back to what I have been saying for years. Society today equates quality with revenue and salaries. Really is sad. Since many players in the NFL make more money than an entire teams cap in the CFL, they look down upon it.



I think they will increase again. IMO, they haven't even scratched the surface in corporate and group sales. Everything just seemed so rushed in 2016.

I don't see how that's going to be enough to make up for the losses:

Does anyone else think that season ticket numbers are going down next season?

No Grey Cup

Team was terrible in 2016

Traded away the first overall pick for an average QB

BMO Field novelty has worn off

People know that there will be lots of tickets available for every game

In season ticket pricing promotions

Alienated some of the existing season ticket holders

Some season ticket holders increased their number of season tickets from the Rogers Centre and will now decrease the number back down

[paulwoods13]

My comments in bold below.

Does anyone else think that season ticket numbers are going down next season?

No Grey Cup How many of this year's sales were predicated on first call on Grey Cup tickets? I bet not many.

Team was terrible in 2016 No doubt about that. It's not necessarily a huge inhibitor but it increases the sales challenge for sure.

Traded away the first overall pick for an average QB How many potential new buyers will even be aware of that? You have to be a pretty serious fan already to know that level of detail, IMO. Not sure they're aiming solely or even mostly at established Argo fans. Need to broaden the base to new customers IMO.

BMO Field novelty has worn off I guess so, altho it used to take 2-3 years for novelty to wear off. It's still a fabulous venue, and we know there are literally millions of people in the area who have not set foot inside. We will no doubt lose some of this year's customers for whom the novelty has worn off, but gain some new ones who've never been there before.

People know that there will be lots of tickets available for every game Certainly can't argue that point, yet, and probably for the next 3-4 years.

In season ticket pricing promotions I personally didn't see that as hugely aggravating, but some STHs no doubt did and will be expecting it to happen again.

Alienated some of the existing season ticket holders No question, based on complaints on this forum.

Some season ticket holders increased their number of season tickets from the Rogers Centre and will now decrease the number back down Yeah, but no way of knowing if it is a material number.

[PullTogether73]

When he mentions needing the minor league hockey/baseball approach targeting groups sales, the only relevant example I can think of would be the Marlies. I don't pay much attention to them, but I was under the impression that they've usually had only small crowds except for 2 or 3 times a year when they have 11 a.m. weekday games and arrange for a few thousand school kids to be there.
http://www.marlies.ca/tickets/SchoolGroups.asp

I don't understand how that could apply to the Argos, since it's not realistic to suggest having a weekday game start at 11 a.m.!

Funny that you bring this up.
I was at the Mississauga Steelheads game this past Wednesday - one of their two mid-week 11:00 am school day games held each year (there were 4 of these games on Wednesday in the OHL btw, not just the Steelheads).
While the arena was the most full I've seen it since I started going to games last year (obviously arranged to include as many schools as possible), the noise level was easily the loudest I have ever heard.

While the Argonauts cannot have a mid-week day game, perhaps a Thursday or Friday evening game would be possible to bus in school groups after school for a 7:00 pm start?
A great way to get them while they're young I say.

[paulwoods13]

While the Argonauts cannot have a mid-week day game, perhaps a Thursday or Friday evening game would be possible to bus in school groups after school for a 7:00 pm start?
A great way to get them while they're young I say.

It would create a lot of resentment among existing fans who say they can't get downtown that early on a workday. That complaint has been registered here before. So potentially attract a new generation of kids but tick off a portion of your existing fanbase. Tough call.

[doubleblue]

Not that this really matters, but I'm surprised by how many people were surprised to learn how hot it is on the east side in afternoons and early evenings. The same conditions applied to a good chunk of the Rogers Centre east side when the roof was open on a sunny day. Granted the RC is cavernous enough that some shadows emerge as the sun moves, but I stopped sitting on the east side years ago because it was way too hot and sunny at times. I hope this does not become a serious impediment to selling tickets over there as the years go on. I would not argue against cheaper tickets on that side, to encourage fuller stands there. And lots of evening games.

I think the lower East Side seats could become a real problem to fill on afternoon games in the Summer. They will only fool people once. I remember walking around the first pre-season game before and at half time to different locations to check things out. It would have been unbearable for me to sit there on hot humid days. Later in the fall it would be enjoyable on a sunny cool day. So I agree evening games only until mid September. I would think that would be easy for Management to clue in on that issue.