Orridge stepping down as CFL Commissioner today; TSN

[paulwoods13]

Someone who really understands the Toronto market would know that the Argos are destined to be a niche product: one that can make a profit and keep a fanbase engaged, but not one that will compete (revenue-wise) against the big teams in town. Any expectation beyond that makes no sense IMO.

[Wobbler]

Someone who really understands the Toronto market would know that the Argos are destined to be a niche product: one that can make a profit and keep a fanbase engaged, but not one that will compete (revenue-wise) against the big teams in town. Any expectation beyond that makes no sense IMO.

That's silly, Paul; there's a yawning gap between "keep a fanbase engaged" (which is the bare minimum for league survival) and "compete against the big teams in town" (fantasy). The goal of the commissioner should be to put the Argonauts on a path for healthy growth of revenue and exposure, and commissioner with Toronto experience would be more likely to succeed.

[paulwoods13]

That's silly, Paul; there's a yawning gap between "keep a fanbase engaged" (which is the bare minimum for league survival) and "compete against the big teams in town" (fantasy). The goal of the commissioner should be to put the Argonauts on a path for healthy growth of revenue and exposure, and commissioner with Toronto experience would be more likely to succeed.

I said "make a profit," too -- something that has not been done in decades in this market. Clearly (as my previous posts have made clear), sustainable revenue growth is at the top of the list of desired attributes for the next commissioner. I was simply responding to the notion that the next commish has to understand the Toronto market. If he/she thinks the Argos can be anything other than a (potentially) profitable small player in the local sports scene, they're not understanding this market.

[OV Argo]

Someone who really understands the Toronto market would know that the Argos are destined to be a niche product: one that can make a profit and keep a fanbase engaged, but not one that will compete (revenue-wise) against the big teams in town. Any expectation beyond that makes no sense IMO.

SO - Ottawa - a CFL franchise that floundered for years with dumb & poor ownership and lousy teams, that saw weak attendance at times and folding twice - can rebound to sell-out crowds and fantastic local support/interest - with a sharp new (and local) ownership group and revamped stadium. BUT the Toronto Argonauts - historic football club - who once had something like 40 thousand season ticket holders, and who play in a demographic of around 5 to 8 times larger than Ottawa - are condemned forever to a bottom dwelling sports niche product in the big Toronnawannabe land city?

Hmm; interesting - thinking & attitude.

[paulwoods13]

SO - Ottawa - a CFL franchise that floundered for years with dumb & poor ownership and lousy teams, that saw weak attendance at times and folding twice - can rebound to sell-out crowds and fantastic local support/interest - with a sharp new (and local) ownership group and revamped stadium. BUT the Toronto Argonauts - historic football club - who once had something like 40 thousand season ticket holders, and who play in a demographic of around 5 to 8 times larger than Ottawa - are condemned forever to a bottom dwelling sports niche product in the big Toronnawannabe land city?

Hmm; interesting - thinking & attitude.

I didn't realize Ottawa also has an NBA team, an MLB team and an MLS team. Silly me.

[1971GreyCup]

I didn't realize Ottawa also has an NBA team, an MLB team and an MLS team. Silly me.

You're actually blaming the NHL, NBA and MLS teams for the decline of interest in the Argos? Not poor marketing, poor ownership decisions and a neglected fan base? I guess by that logic, the attendance problem that the Ottawa Senators have experienced was due to the resurgence of the CFL in Ottawa? Face the facts, Ottawa has comeback with an shrewd operator not willing to take the old, tried and true excuses for failure. A model franchise in a new era. We never miss the opportunity to attend the Argos games at Landsdowne Park and just wonder "what if Toronto could find our own Jeff Hunt"? Maybe we should be searing Newfoundland?

[Jon Gonzo]

Great point. The community got behind Jeff. He had good history, he laid it on the line, got fantastic wealthy investors on his team and then he went to it. They knocked down one hurdle at a time. The Ottawa experience, as you have sampled, is 2nd to none. The media will follow. If they have too. They have to here. Forget the excuses, forget the rest, stop making excuses. Worry about your OWN business and they will come. Even if it's slowly.

[paulwoods13]

You're actually blaming the NHL, NBA and MLS teams for the decline of interest in the Argos? Not poor marketing, poor ownership decisions and a neglected fan base? I guess by that logic, the attendance problem that the Ottawa Senators have experienced was due to the resurgence of the CFL in Ottawa? Face the facts, Ottawa has comeback with an shrewd operator not willing to take the old, tried and true excuses for failure. A model franchise in a new era. We never miss the opportunity to attend the Argos games at Landsdowne Park and just wonder "what if Toronto could find our own Jeff Hunt"? Maybe we should be searing Newfoundland?

You mustn't have read my many posts over the years about what has caused the decline of interest in the Argos. The list is long and yes, it includes poor marketing, poor ownership decisions and a neglected fan base. It also includes the emergence of new competition for the sports fan's dollar in the form of three major league teams (all now owned by very big revenue-generating corporations) that did not exist when the Argos were the equal of the Leafs in this town.

Jeff Hunt has done a fabulous job building up fan support and media interest in Ottawa, but there is only one major-league team competing for their dollars and attention. This market has four, plus the Buffalo Bills close by. That's a reality that is simply not going away. The Argos can become a successful, profitable business but it will be at a niche level -- i.e. one that maybe generates $1M in annual profit on revenues of maybe $30-40M. The Leafs, Raptors and Blue Jays dwarf those numbers. Anyone who thinks a new commissioner can find a pot of gold is ignoring the reality that when the CFL was at its peak, there were not seven NHL teams in Canada and 31 in the league, there was no baseball or basketball team in Toronto and the NFL was not the multibillion-dollar juggernaut it has become. The CFL is exactly where it was in 1976: nine teams, three major markets, but one of those major markets now has a massive amount of competition that didn't exist back then.

[OV Argo]

You're actually blaming the NHL, NBA and MLS teams for the decline of interest in the Argos? Not poor marketing, poor ownership decisions and a neglected fan base? I guess by that logic, the attendance problem that the Ottawa Senators have experienced was due to the resurgence of the CFL in Ottawa? Face the facts, Ottawa has comeback with an shrewd operator not willing to take the old, tried and true excuses for failure. A model franchise in a new era. We never miss the opportunity to attend the Argos games at Landsdowne Park and just wonder "what if Toronto could find our own Jeff Hunt"? Maybe we should be searing Newfoundland?

Again - a historic football team (who once had well over 30 thousand season ticket holders), that plays in a demographic now of something in the order of 8 million people to draw from - can't sell 20 thousand tickets to see a game once every 2 weeks in the summer ??? - and it's ALL because the Jays & Raptors came to town ??? The size of the market cannot be underestimated in this discussion and feeble excuses will not do. The Argos/CFL situation in S- Ontario wannabeland is a mess and all the more pathetic because of the size of the market to draw from; the excuse might work if we were talking a city of well under a million - gee, too much competition. Pathetic/ sad/ laughable; but I believe this can change and the Argos can, slowly probably, climb back to some respectability in the market.