Orridge stepping down as CFL Commissioner today; TSN

[Jon Gonzo]

Someone who really understands the Toronto market would be helpful for the league. Cracking that nut seems to be the biggest challenge.

Although... longer term, brain injury lawsuits might be bigger. Maybe we should also prioritize someone who knows a lot about robots, for when human players are phased out.

Great point. I think litigation; ground sweeping, potential game changing litigation in inevitable in most pro sport. Probably not a great era to be a Commissioner in this era of liability? It's only just begun for the NFL and CFL, and Bettman is really going to get it good soon enough. I suspect they'll have no choice but to ban bare knuckle fighting (but that's another topic). Maybe being a Lawyer will be a pre-requisite?

[paulwoods13]

Great point. I think litigation; ground sweeping, potential game changing litigation in inevitable in most pro sport. Probably not a great era to be a Commissioner in this era of liability? It's only just begun for the NFL and CFL, and Bettman is really going to get it good soon enough. I suspect they'll have no choice but to ban bare knuckle fighting (but that's another topic). Maybe being a Lawyer will be a pre-requisite?

There's no doubt that the CFL's existence could be threatened because of legal action over past concussions. The NFL coughed up $1B to former players -- the CFL would be put out of business if it were ever ordered to pay even a fraction of that. That said, if and when the league has to fight such action in the courts, it will need the services of an expert legal team of labour and litigation specialists. There's little to no chance, IMO, that the league will look to either of those specialized areas of the law for the commissioner role. For one thing, the league has managed to argue successfully (so far, at least) under labour law that retirees have no choice but to pursue grievances through the union. So there's no imminent danger of some massive lawsuit hitting the league.

[Wobbler]

Someone who really understands the Toronto market would know that the Argos are destined to be a niche product: one that can make a profit and keep a fanbase engaged, but not one that will compete (revenue-wise) against the big teams in town. Any expectation beyond that makes no sense IMO.

That's silly, Paul; there's a yawning gap between "keep a fanbase engaged" (which is the bare minimum for league survival) and "compete against the big teams in town" (fantasy). The goal of the commissioner should be to put the Argonauts on a path for healthy growth of revenue and exposure, and commissioner with Toronto experience would be more likely to succeed.

[paulwoods13]

That's silly, Paul; there's a yawning gap between "keep a fanbase engaged" (which is the bare minimum for league survival) and "compete against the big teams in town" (fantasy). The goal of the commissioner should be to put the Argonauts on a path for healthy growth of revenue and exposure, and commissioner with Toronto experience would be more likely to succeed.

I said "make a profit," too -- something that has not been done in decades in this market. Clearly (as my previous posts have made clear), sustainable revenue growth is at the top of the list of desired attributes for the next commissioner. I was simply responding to the notion that the next commish has to understand the Toronto market. If he/she thinks the Argos can be anything other than a (potentially) profitable small player in the local sports scene, they're not understanding this market.

[OV Argo]

Someone who really understands the Toronto market would know that the Argos are destined to be a niche product: one that can make a profit and keep a fanbase engaged, but not one that will compete (revenue-wise) against the big teams in town. Any expectation beyond that makes no sense IMO.

SO - Ottawa - a CFL franchise that floundered for years with dumb & poor ownership and lousy teams, that saw weak attendance at times and folding twice - can rebound to sell-out crowds and fantastic local support/interest - with a sharp new (and local) ownership group and revamped stadium. BUT the Toronto Argonauts - historic football club - who once had something like 40 thousand season ticket holders, and who play in a demographic of around 5 to 8 times larger than Ottawa - are condemned forever to a bottom dwelling sports niche product in the big Toronnawannabe land city?

Hmm; interesting - thinking & attitude.

[Jon Gonzo]

There's no doubt that the CFL's existence could be threatened because of legal action over past concussions. The NFL coughed up $1B to former players -- the CFL would be put out of business if it were ever ordered to pay even a fraction of that. That said, if and when the league has to fight such action in the courts, it will need the services of an expert legal team of labour and litigation specialists. There's little to no chance, IMO, that the league will look to either of those specialized areas of the law for the commissioner role. For one thing, the league has managed to argue successfully (so far, at least) under labour law that retirees have no choice but to pursue grievances through the union. So there's no imminent danger of some massive lawsuit hitting the league.

I would leave that to the lawyers. I have been saying it for a decade; liability and insurance will threaten professional sports to the core. Especially the dumb ones. I think the NHL is cruising for a bruisin.' Bettman is a lawyer, and he won't be able to prevent it, so making a lawyer Commissioner doesn't make it go away, true. It may not be the magic elixir but it just helps with a broad general understanding of the Law. How can this not be helpful. It's for this reason (and many others) that you'll see a man with a legal background, on the short list for this job.

[paulwoods13]

I would leave that to the lawyers. I have been saying it for a decade; liability and insurance will threaten professional sports to the core. Especially the dumb ones. I think the NHL is cruising for a bruisin.' Bettman is a lawyer, and he won't be able to prevent it, so making a lawyer Commissioner doesn't make it go away, true. It may not be the magic elixir but it just helps with a broad general understanding of the Law. How can this not be helpful. It's for this reason (and many others) that you'll see a man with a legal background, on the short list for this job.

The jurisdiction issue is already being handled for the CFL by one of the best management-side labour lawyers in Canada. For a class-action suit to proceed, a court will have to overturn decades of jurisprudence that union members' only recourse to pursue complaints against management is through grievance procedures. So I'm fairly confident this can of worms is not in imminent danger of being opened. Obviously judges can overturn past rulings so anything is possible but ...

As for a broad general understanding of the law, obviously it's not a harm but a broad general understanding of economics and business is far more important IMO. There are tons of great lawyers available to be engaged as needed; how many great leaders who can grow a business are available for a role like this?

[paulwoods13]

SO - Ottawa - a CFL franchise that floundered for years with dumb & poor ownership and lousy teams, that saw weak attendance at times and folding twice - can rebound to sell-out crowds and fantastic local support/interest - with a sharp new (and local) ownership group and revamped stadium. BUT the Toronto Argonauts - historic football club - who once had something like 40 thousand season ticket holders, and who play in a demographic of around 5 to 8 times larger than Ottawa - are condemned forever to a bottom dwelling sports niche product in the big Toronnawannabe land city?

Hmm; interesting - thinking & attitude.

I didn't realize Ottawa also has an NBA team, an MLB team and an MLS team. Silly me.

[1971GreyCup]

I didn't realize Ottawa also has an NBA team, an MLB team and an MLS team. Silly me.

You're actually blaming the NHL, NBA and MLS teams for the decline of interest in the Argos? Not poor marketing, poor ownership decisions and a neglected fan base? I guess by that logic, the attendance problem that the Ottawa Senators have experienced was due to the resurgence of the CFL in Ottawa? Face the facts, Ottawa has comeback with an shrewd operator not willing to take the old, tried and true excuses for failure. A model franchise in a new era. We never miss the opportunity to attend the Argos games at Landsdowne Park and just wonder "what if Toronto could find our own Jeff Hunt"? Maybe we should be searing Newfoundland?

[Jon Gonzo]

Great point. The community got behind Jeff. He had good history, he laid it on the line, got fantastic wealthy investors on his team and then he went to it. They knocked down one hurdle at a time. The Ottawa experience, as you have sampled, is 2nd to none. The media will follow. If they have too. They have to here. Forget the excuses, forget the rest, stop making excuses. Worry about your OWN business and they will come. Even if it's slowly.

[paulwoods13]

You're actually blaming the NHL, NBA and MLS teams for the decline of interest in the Argos? Not poor marketing, poor ownership decisions and a neglected fan base? I guess by that logic, the attendance problem that the Ottawa Senators have experienced was due to the resurgence of the CFL in Ottawa? Face the facts, Ottawa has comeback with an shrewd operator not willing to take the old, tried and true excuses for failure. A model franchise in a new era. We never miss the opportunity to attend the Argos games at Landsdowne Park and just wonder "what if Toronto could find our own Jeff Hunt"? Maybe we should be searing Newfoundland?

You mustn't have read my many posts over the years about what has caused the decline of interest in the Argos. The list is long and yes, it includes poor marketing, poor ownership decisions and a neglected fan base. It also includes the emergence of new competition for the sports fan's dollar in the form of three major league teams (all now owned by very big revenue-generating corporations) that did not exist when the Argos were the equal of the Leafs in this town.

Jeff Hunt has done a fabulous job building up fan support and media interest in Ottawa, but there is only one major-league team competing for their dollars and attention. This market has four, plus the Buffalo Bills close by. That's a reality that is simply not going away. The Argos can become a successful, profitable business but it will be at a niche level -- i.e. one that maybe generates $1M in annual profit on revenues of maybe $30-40M. The Leafs, Raptors and Blue Jays dwarf those numbers. Anyone who thinks a new commissioner can find a pot of gold is ignoring the reality that when the CFL was at its peak, there were not seven NHL teams in Canada and 31 in the league, there was no baseball or basketball team in Toronto and the NFL was not the multibillion-dollar juggernaut it has become. The CFL is exactly where it was in 1976: nine teams, three major markets, but one of those major markets now has a massive amount of competition that didn't exist back then.

[OV Argo]

You're actually blaming the NHL, NBA and MLS teams for the decline of interest in the Argos? Not poor marketing, poor ownership decisions and a neglected fan base? I guess by that logic, the attendance problem that the Ottawa Senators have experienced was due to the resurgence of the CFL in Ottawa? Face the facts, Ottawa has comeback with an shrewd operator not willing to take the old, tried and true excuses for failure. A model franchise in a new era. We never miss the opportunity to attend the Argos games at Landsdowne Park and just wonder "what if Toronto could find our own Jeff Hunt"? Maybe we should be searing Newfoundland?

Again - a historic football team (who once had well over 30 thousand season ticket holders), that plays in a demographic now of something in the order of 8 million people to draw from - can't sell 20 thousand tickets to see a game once every 2 weeks in the summer ??? - and it's ALL because the Jays & Raptors came to town ??? The size of the market cannot be underestimated in this discussion and feeble excuses will not do. The Argos/CFL situation in S- Ontario wannabeland is a mess and all the more pathetic because of the size of the market to draw from; the excuse might work if we were talking a city of well under a million - gee, too much competition. Pathetic/ sad/ laughable; but I believe this can change and the Argos can, slowly probably, climb back to some respectability in the market.

[paulwoods13]

I haven't seen anyone here saying Argos can't get back to selling 20k tix per week. And definitely no one here is saying that the reason they can't is ALL because the Jays and Raptors came to town. But shockingly, most of us seem to agree that "Argos can, slowly probably, climb back to some respectability in the market." Now how respectability is defined may vary -- IMO it would be drawing enough fans to turn a small profit every year. Which would make it a niche sport in a market dominated by three large-revenue teams. And what's wrong with that?

[1971GreyCup]

I believe that a good number of 53,000 home fans who attended the 100th Grey Cup in Toronto would be interested in attending games Argos games in Toronto if the Game Day experience warranted it.

And the following 2013 Division Finals in Toronto drew over 35,000 in attendance. The fans are there, they just need to be brought to the stadium.

In fact, right up to 2009, the Argos attendance hovered around 30k. Quite a respectable number. I don't think the Blue Jays were routinely drawing those numbers.

I don't think it's surprising to note that Sokolowski and Cynamon bailed on the team after 2009 and attendance tanked. The attendance dropped after Braley stepped in and eliminated marketing. I was hoping that the new regime would return to the historic Argos marketing and attendance numbers would improve. I now hear that traditional marketing no longer works. All I can observe is the absence of marketing doesn't!

[argolio]

Did the attendance really drop sharply after C&S left, or did we just see legitimate attendance numbers return because the policy of papering the house ended?

[argos1873]

I think its foolish to assume that if Toronto had their own Jeff Hunt, that the Argos would be booming like the Redblacks are booming in Ottawa. It would be good, but it wouldn't be the magic bullet. Its not that the Jays or the Raptors took sales away from the Argos. Its that their presence in the city, made a lot of people believe that ONLY the big four major leagues were good enough for Toronto. Anything else, including the CFL was just minor league nonsense not worthy of this big league city. I lived in Toronto for 42 years, and the number of NFL fans I met, who would openly ridicule me about liking the CFL, is too many to count. I'm not sure what it would take to convert these people. I lived in Ottawa for almost 1 year, and I've met a few NFL only fans, but not ONE ridiculed me for my liking the CFL. That's not Jeff Hunt, and it wasn't ALL the fault of failed Argo ownership in Toronto. Its a completely different mindset. There's not just one problem in Toronto. There's many. Ownership is or was one of them. Marketing or lack thereof is or was too. But Toronto is not Ottawa. If you listen to TSN 1200 in Ottawa, there's lots of Redblack talk, especially during the season. How much effort was it to get the media to buy into that, when you have no competition during the summer? Would it have been as easy a buy in if Ottawa had an MLB team? My point is, what works in Ottawa, doesn't directly translate to what will work in Toronto. There's definitely many take-aways, and if no one is doing that in Toronto, they are failing, but there are a helluva a lot more challenges in Toronto to make the CFL work, than there is in Ottawa. And that's not taking a single thing away from Jeff Hunt and his group. They read the situation as best as anyone could, and ran with it. This isn't also an excuse for Argo ownership. In my opinion they so far haven't read the situation correctly. They have a huge uphill battle in front of them, and ONLY a series of correct moves will allow the Argos to be successful again in Toronto. Not just one move.

[ArgoGabe22]

Grey Cup attendance isn't all GTA. EF isn't just Argos fans. C&S gave tickets out for free. How many people will only take free tickets is the question?

Going back to Ottawa, maybe it's simply that Ottawa doesn't suffer from "big city" syndrome.

[Jon Gonzo]

Grey Cup attendance isn't all GTA. EF isn't just Argos fans. C&S gave tickets out for free. How many people will only take free tickets is the question?

Going back to Ottawa, maybe it's simply that Ottawa doesn't suffer from "big city" syndrome.

Nope. Ottawa is famously known as a 'big, little city.'

[OV Argo]

I think its foolish to assume that if Toronto had their own Jeff Hunt, that the Argos would be booming like the Redblacks are booming in Ottawa. It would be good, but it wouldn't be the magic bullet. Its not that the Jays or the Raptors took sales away from the Argos. Its that their presence in the city, made a lot of people believe that ONLY the big four major leagues were good enough for Toronto. Anything else, including the CFL was just minor league nonsense not worthy of this big league city. I lived in Toronto for 42 years, and the number of NFL fans I met, who would openly ridicule me about liking the CFL, is too many to count. I'm not sure what it would take to convert these people. I lived in Ottawa for almost 1 year, and I've met a few NFL only fans, but not ONE ridiculed me for my liking the CFL. That's not Jeff Hunt, and it wasn't ALL the fault of failed Argo ownership in Toronto. Its a completely different mindset. There's not just one problem in Toronto. There's many. Ownership is or was one of them. Marketing or lack thereof is or was too. But Toronto is not Ottawa. If you listen to TSN 1200 in Ottawa, there's lots of Redblack talk, especially during the season. How much effort was it to get the media to buy into that, when you have no competition during the summer? Would it have been as easy a buy in if Ottawa had an MLB team? My point is, what works in Ottawa, doesn't directly translate to what will work in Toronto. There's definitely many take-aways, and if no one is doing that in Toronto, they are failing, but there are a helluva a lot more challenges in Toronto to make the CFL work, than there is in Ottawa. And that's not taking a single thing away from Jeff Hunt and his group. They read the situation as best as anyone could, and ran with it. This isn't also an excuse for Argo ownership. In my opinion they so far haven't read the situation correctly. They have a huge uphill battle in front of them, and ONLY a series of correct moves will allow the Argos to be successful again in Toronto. Not just one move.

Bang-on post IMO.

The wannabeness that exists to such a degree in the GTA - that has joe average sports fan looking down their nose at the "inferior" CFL for not being "major league" is a huge obstacle to overcome for the Argos & the CFL; and it is still promoted by all the dorks in the sports media - and going way back (a moron like Simmons putting down the CFL forever with his pulpit; dweebs like Hebscher, Tatti & Martin constantly snickering at the CFL on the old Global Sportsline; dullards like sports "expert" McClown and his wannabe guests ignoring the CFL or else focusing on negativity, etc.) YEARS or even decades of the CFL being dissed or mocked in it's own country = institutionalized negativity & apathy - for a historic great league = sad & pathetic.

Aside from much improved marketing by the Argos & CFL in the area - how to combat this garbage ? Tough call. One thing I recommend - when an NFL hero worshipping wannabe bad mouths the CFL or you for being a CFL fan - tell them to F.O. and threaten a punch in their big moron yap. It`s something anyways. Staying a quiet little sheep to those types just encourages them, and helps the attitude thrive.

[OV Argo]

Nope. Ottawa is famously known as a 'big, little city.'

Still plenty of wannabe types in Ottawa who mock or look down on the CFL. I don`t really know, but just seems to me - that attitude is just so much more prevalent and has been allowed to thrive in Toronnawannabe land ( or most of Southern Ontario) ?

There is TONS of RedBlacks gear - hats, Ts, jersey's, etc. - on display by the sports gear wearing public here, ever since the RedBlacks returned as a CFL franchise. Why does Toronto not have lots of people sporting Argo gear? - afraid to be mocked by a wannabe ?