Where to find 1/2 Stadium of Fans

[paulwoods13]

Frankly being a swell guy doesn't sell tickets in this town - only winning does (sometimes) and/or generating a "buzz" of excitement over your product (always!) --- hey the 1991 Blues Brothers reunion, Rocket Ismail, and Gretzky and McNall/Candy sold tickets whatever you may think of that era

The 1991 team exceeded 40,000 only twice -- for the home opener with the Blues Brothers and for the Eastern Final. Ownership was counting on sellouts and instead got an average of 36,000. The following year, defending the Grey Cup and with most of the same players -- including the most buzzed-about player in Argo history, Rocket Ismail -- attendance fell to 32,000 on average. So I think it's erroneous to say buzz "always!" sells. (Yes, I know we'd all love to average 22,000 right now, much less 32,000, but there's a relativity factor here -- the 1991 Argonauts had a one-third empty stadium, and in 1992 it was 40% empty.)

Furthermore, if we truly can't ever draw crowds without creating "buzz," aren't we doomed to constantly chasing the Manziels of the world? And in reality, is there a football player alive today who would actually create the kind of buzz that would fill BMO? As you noted, Ricky Williams didn't do it. I suppose Tom Brady would but obviously he's not coming here; nor is any other NFLer with a big enough name to make the indifferents or negatives sit up and take notice.

[Argos1983]

I know "buzz" doesn't always sell but as you said 22,000 or 32,000 would look great now - relativity to stadium size is silly here, all we care about is butts in seats now, the Argos have obviously acknowledged that going from a 50,000 to a 30,000 seat venue is not an issue due to decreased demand - but this idea that getting fans in the building in 2017 is the same in the age of way more entertainment options and TV channels and internet streams including a way better viewing experience at home on a large HD TV is not radically different then 1991 or even 2001 or even 2010 is silly.....things have exploded exponentially in the digital age and the Argos are still trying to market themselves like a small market team in a big market town, where the great CFL game will sell itself, it simply won't in this market anymore (sad to say but it's true), the average Argos fan is aging rapidly and getting young people into your product requires different approaches than marketing to us "old timers" who remember the CFL in its glory days of relevance and importance in this town and this country, when we had 10 channels to choose from, no internet to distract us, the Jays were irrelevant, and TFC didn't even exist.....apparently that number of old die hards is about 3-5 thousand STH (including me), ok then, now who's buying the other 20,000 seats?!

So yes, does it suck that the Argos based on simple merit and history don't succeed at the gate?! Sure, but I'd rather have 22,000 people there who need to be constantly marketed to (and they do I fully acknowledge that -- by the way haven't we chased Joe Theisman, Rocket Ismail, Ricky Williams and others to come to this league to draw the "uninterested" fans (or the "thumb your nosers" as someone just said) to our game?! - this has been going on for decades now --- and yes, it is not a long term solution, the Argos arent at the long term sustained interest stage anymore in this market (those days are long gone I'm afraid), it is going to be a constant year to year battle to capture the attention of a very fickle and easily distracted audience in this day and age --- how many of you are looking at your phones during a game? we are all easily distracted now, let's be honest!), as opposed to just marketing to the 10,000 die hards saying we don't need all the frills as the game is awesome by itself with unknown players with the purity of the experience kept intact.....at some point you have to try something different.....again, did I miss the big Bear Woods marketing campaign so we can maybe develop some player and brand awareness beyond Pinball and Ray......is it really that hard to come up with some ad copy promoting the "Bear" mauling the opposition or if a Bear Woods tackles someone in the forest everyone hears it kind of stuff.....

Again --please show me the ideas that have worked and will work in this market for sustained growth of attendance of this team in this era (in the last 10 years or so?) --- you simply can't, because they don't exist anymore (even TFC stole the remaining chunk of fans looking for a new and fun experience for a "lower" league of talent in a new stadium -- MLS and CFL are clearly not perceived as the "best" leagues in their respective sport by any average fan in this town) --- it is going to be short term band-aids for a long time to come.....I wish it was different but wishing and hoping is not going to change this reality --- anyone else have some marketing ideas for THIS YEAR that they would like to share.....I'd prefer not to just give up on this team drawing more than 20,000 for any game at least once this year (during the Ex? Saskatchewan?)......I am not trying to be negative - but where are the innovative ideas to sell tickets? and why aren't I hearing about them from the front office?

[paulwoods13]

Again --please show me the ideas that have worked and will work in this market for sustained growth of attendance of this team in this era (in the last 10 years or so?) --- you simply can't, because they don't exist anymore . . .

Chasing a big name to draw "buzz" has failed in this market all three times it has been tried in the past three decades -- 1991-92, 1996-97 and 2006. Yet you still believe that will work now?

[Argos1983]

Chasing a big name to draw "buzz" has failed in this market all three times it has been tried in the past three decades -- 1991-92, 1996-97 and 2006. Yet you still believe that will work now?

Your definition of "fail" is different than mine ---- did Rocket Ismail put butts in the seats short term? (we are nowhere near averaging even close to 20,000 people a game at this point, this is desperation time my friend) --- yes he did and they won a title too (hey I'd like a competitive team too! - that sounds like more fun as opposed to going 5-13) --- Flutie and company were the best team this league has seen in decades (since the 70s Esks in my opinion) and all that proved is that there is no interest in this product even if simply winning games in great bunches is the metric of success (and they won two titles too!).....so this whole idea of let's win some games and then the people will come out thing is obviously not "it" either.....Ricky Williams was a failure sure, what about Theisman? was that a failure too?! (lost tragically in the Grey Cup in 1971) and he was a two time CFL all star --- again please don't misinterpret what I am saying --- I get that chasing "buzz" with the stars that people have heard of is not a "long-term" solution....but short-term it might create an interest that simply isn't there now --- there are NO long term solutions right now in this market period - they need to get butts in seats now before the perception becomes even worse that this thing is simply a lost cause of a bygone era. It is going to be a year by year thing to try to gain some semblance of relevance to people in this town beyond some old-timers who long for the glory days of past in this league which simply don't exist in Toronto anymore.....people looking at some magical grass-roots type of solution is not working in Toronto in this day and age, they are simply being ignored in this market and apathy is way worse than the bad press they might receive by chasing a "saviour" for a year or two (who knows maybe some media will actually think they are "trying" and give them some much needed coverage if they actually get a "name" player or engage in some catchy marketing -- I stand by my "Teddy Bear (Woods) Toss" idea from earlier - ha ha ha!) ---- people (especially young people) simply don't care anymore and that's the issue --- sometimes they need to be "jolted" into recognizing there is a football team in this town every decade or so.....how about autograph signings at every game from our illustrious Argos Alumni? where is it? once a year they trot out the old-timers (home opener last year and July 24th this year?) is that going to bring more people out than Mitch Marner for example? or some Drake type of equivalent that the Raptors used to market themselves for a while, the Leafs marketed the crap out of that 100th anniversary with alumni appearances all over the place.....see other teams do it too....

Again Paul - I know that no one is a bigger fan of this team than you are and heck I bought your book and loved it (look at my user name for goodness sake - I love that 1983 team) --- it's just that the Argos as we know them (and grew up with them) don't work in this market anymore the way they are being sold, it's just a reality, the younger generation of sought after fans are submerged in a "celebrity" driven culture with short attention spans to something being cool or relevant, with memes and 140 characters taking over how we consume a product in most cases.....I know that's a bit of a stereotype but again, please let me know the last time you saw someone under 30 not have a phone in their hands at a sporting event, texting their friends and taking pictures of themselves at the game.....I spend most of my time at Jays games (filled with lots of bandwagon fans who appeared since August 2015 and a good portion of which who will leave by next year once the "cool factor" is gone) taking pictures for people so that they can post them on Instagram way more than getting them to clap when there is a two strike count on a hitter.....again, the world and market we live in is vastly different in this time and in this city compared to other CFL towns and even Toronto of the past 10 years, the Argos ship has sailed my friend and we might be the only ones left on it at this point.....

I am still not hearing any ideas for actually marketing this team over the next 7 home games besides lowering ticket prices drastically.....what do people think will actually put butts in the seats short of handing out the tickets for free on the sidealk (and even then?!).....is anyone confident that this is being done outside of a bobblehead next game - anything else I'm missing? Please tell me what we are trying? we can blame the media for not covering it, but what is it they are supposed to be telling everyone about in terms of marketing?

[paulwoods13]

Your definition of "fail" is different than mine ---- did Rocket Ismail put butts in the seats short term? (we are nowhere near averaging even close to 20,000 people a game at this point, this is desperation time my friend) --- yes he did and they won a title too

Here are the numbers:
1990 28,815
1991 36,304 (35% increase)
1992 26,132 (lower than two years earlier when the team did NO marketing)

So yes, I'd have to consider that a failure. The team lost tons of money both years (and not coincidentally paid tons of money to one player). If we overspent right now for a big-name NFL star, would attendance increase by 35%? And if it did, would it last more than one season? I want long-term, sustainable growth, not quick fixes that bring a little buzz for a few weeks or months, then get looked at by the public at large as yet another failure.

there are NO long term solutions right now in this market period - they need to get butts in seats now before the perception becomes even worse that this thing is simply a lost cause of a bygone era.

In that case, we may as well just throw in the towel. I don't believe it can't be fixed. I believe it can, and it's going to take years, not weeks. How? I don't know. But they could start by lowering ticket prices and doing some of the other good ideas that have been thrown out on this forum.

I appreciate your kind words about my book.

[Argos1983]

Here are the numbers:
1990 28,815
1991 36,304 (35% increase)
1992 26,132 (lower than two years earlier when the team did NO marketing)

So yes, I'd have to consider that a failure. The team lost tons of money both years (and not coincidentally paid tons of money to one player). If we overspent right now for a big-name NFL star, would attendance increase by 35%? And if it did, would it last more than one season? I want long-term, sustainable growth, not quick fixes that bring a little buzz for a few weeks or months, then get looked at by the public at large as yet another failure.



In that case, we may as well just throw in the towel. I don't believe it can't be fixed. I believe it can, and it's going to take years, not weeks. How? I don't know. But they could start by lowering ticket prices and doing some of the other good ideas that have been thrown out on this forum.

I appreciate your kind words about my book.

No worries -- this is all just friendly debate, we all want the same thing here a successful franchise with a strong season ticket base of committed fans --- and again, the "Bouncing Back" book is awesome , looking forward to the 1991 one where you will inevitably discuss the excitement behind Hollywood North and the buzz it generated....my hunch is you wouldn't be writing a book about an era that was boring so I guess creating a little buzz has its merits......ha ha ha......

Again, back to the debate, I know the attendance numbers I looked them up too, right now I would love 25-30K in the stadium (artificially induced with a star or not) and then a dip to 20K after a failed "star" marketing ploy as opposed to 12K and falling (as STH numbers I am sure are not going up next year unless you give the tickets away at ridiculous prices (I am sure ST prices will get reduced) which is just a kinder way of papering the place!) sometimes you have to "goose the numbers" with a little pizazz and maybe just maybe some of those folks might stay afterwards (again this is a year to year marketing plan that has to be reinvented constantly in this day and age -- ask the Jays next year about having to re-market themselves when ticket sales inevitably go down when the "buzz" leaves this group after a failed season -- they don't have a 10 year model to boost attendance slowly over time as too much changes in the marketplace over that period, the Jays are running a 1 or 2 year model for ticket sales based on team success/failure/"buzz" which changes all the time, literally daily (!) - dynamic pricing anyone?!), and anyone thinking that running this team in this town is going to be a profit making enterprise is foolhardy (we are simply "media content" at this point to any owner) unless an owner simply does no spending and enjoys the TV and Grey Cup money - oh, I guess that was the most recent model to make a profit here ("thanks" Braley!), this is a Bob Young salvage operation in this market frankly and is basically requiring a person who wants to prop up the Argos as some sort of civic duty --- I have yet to see anyone show me a realistic long term sustainable growth plan for this team in this city (lots of really smart business people have tried - and they all failed, maybe that is telling us something) - every ownership here thinks they can reinvent the wheel in terms of Argos interest here and they simply cannot do it - the only things that have moved the needle are short term blips of excitement when a "buzz" surrounds the team - the Toronto sports market is very unique and very fickle (save for Leafs fans) and getting more and more fragmented as attention spans are getting shorter and shorter, and thinking that a long term 25K consistent Argos fanbase is going to magically appear in the next 3-5 years when we've done nothing to attract the next generation of fans is beyond silly to me, the only people that truly care about the product in this town are slowly dwindling away and nothing has been done to replace them with fans who are 20-30 years our junior --- heck I'd be thrilled with 28K or 36K or a failed 26K --- we are nowhere near those numbers right now.....as you yourself indicated - you don't know how to fix it save for lowering prices - I don't think that a $199 ST is an outrageous number frankly and we could not even sell those ST out at that price point (you could get 15 tickets this year for $199 which is $13.27 a seat - how much lower do we need to go?!) and many people gave those $199 seats up after last year (we can't even sell out maybe a thousand season seats at that price point, if I now magically advertised Argos tickets at $20 now do you honestly believe that moves the needle to 25K consistently or anything close? frankly I doubt it highly.....people need to be motivated to go and price is only one factor, the "need to be there" factor is a key thing in this town (its the sad reality of this "trendy" market) and people will pay lots of money (and brave the traffic, and pay for parking etc.) if they feel the product is highly desirable, if not, the price point won't sway the average person as much as you think, HDTV in our living rooms are really comfortable for most people; most are motivated to go to a sporting event to be a part of something, an "event" a "happening", watching most sports is way better at home frankly, especially football in my opinion, if you can't make it the "place to be", why go? is what most people seem to be saying ---- this is entertainment after all, people want to be entertained, and in this market as 96/97 showed us simply winning isn't even enough to do it......we came up with some modified version of tailgating last year (nice idea I give them that), ok, now what are we doing, as that idea didn't generate a big uptick in butts in seats apparently?

I'll even try it your way, no big name star signing --ok then, what, if any new marketing ideas THIS YEAR that are being attempted to generate interest? please enlighten me what we are doing to make those numbers go upwards for a sustainable model this year? I've thrown out ideas like a Bear toss, various autograph signings of Alumni or other interesting sports figures (probably a lot cheaper than paying for a Manziel (who I have no interest in personally) to get someone for an autograph signing), someone here said a Women's night although the league wide "pink game" for breast cancer likely covers this initiative I'm sure, kids cheaper or free tickets etc., --- what are the Argos specifically doing that is unique and exciting this year to generate interest? I just don't see it frankly --- I'd rather at least see some failed attempts than no attempts at all - be creative for goodness sake, try something different, or simply just try at all!!!

I just want some ideas being attempted here Paul, and frankly I see very little to try to move the needle here these days --- it's just shrug our shoulders and say generic things like it will take time and its not going to happen right away. OK, how about trying to get an uptick of 500-1000 more people on average at the games this year ----try stuff!! --- even if my "star" model is unfounded (which as a short term solution I don't think it is), and I acknowledged many times that it is NOT a long term solution -- but at this point long term is the next 7 home games these days -or are we just giving up for another year in terms of building a fanbase?