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    Flutie to be honoured as an All-Time Argo

    There are a few non-Argo fans who feel he doesn't deserve All-Argo status since he only played 2 seasons, as well as not deserving to be recognized as the greatest Argos QB in history. Good timing to add Flutie with reunion in town but what about Dicky Thornton?

    https://www.cfl.ca/2017/07/17/flutie-named-time-argo/

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    Agreed re: only 2 seasons but on the flip side, led 2 of the best squads in CFL history in my opinion. I dunno, I’m on the fence myself to be honest.

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    That's a tough one to call. Flutie gets my vote for the best Argo QB, but only 2 years and an all time Argo I don't know. But then the Argos used to go through QB's at quite a fast pace. 3 years was probably a long time for most.
    But I look at players like Danny Nykoluk and Norm Stoneburg. Two long serving players and all time Argos. Were they the best players at their positions to ever play for the Argos? I don't think so. Several American players were better but their long serving time as Argos was a big factor. Maybe there should be an all time Argo list for Canadians and one for Americans.
    I look at my all time Argo picture and I see many of the players were on those teams that broke our hearts every year at playoff time, if they got there, but we still loved them because they were there year after year

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    It can be about excellence or longevity, but excellence trumps longevity IMO. Flutie was more dominant in his two years than any player in the history of the franchise, so he deserves all-time status even though he wasn't here long. He wouldn't deserve it in B.C., IMO, because of his two years there, only one was as a dominant force, and the team didn't win championships. But I have no issue with putting him on the banner in Toronto. There are definitely others who deserve recognition in future, including Thornton.
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    Flutie as an all-time Argo has been, well I don't think you can call it controversial, but it is something that has come up from time to time on various incarnations of the forum. I believe Flutie was named the all-time Argo QB when that team was announced in 2007. You cannot argue with those statistics over those 2 years and the performance of the team on the field. Whether his longevity in Toronto is questionable may be a legitimate opinion. However, let's look at some of the other candidates at the QB position. Joe Krol is already an all-time Argo and I do not know enough about him to comment, but the years 1952-1981 weren't exactly full of great QB play in Toronto with a few aberrations (Rote in 1960, Theismann, etc.) so nobody is going to come from that era. We finally arrive at 1981 when the Argos traded Kevin Powell to the Rough Riders for Condredge Holloway. Now there is no doubt that Holloway was an excellent QB, but even his stint in Toronto has disadvantages. Holloway was an Argo from 1981 through 1986, but the only full season he really ended up playing I think was '81 and '82. In 1981 the team as a whole struggled so that's a write-off and in 1982 he won the MOP with 4,661 yards and 31 touchdowns. However, he platooned with Joe Barnes in 1983 and 1984 and while his stats were very good they do not reflect a full-seasons work. Should that work against him? Maybe, maybe not, but I can see someone making the argument. In 1985 he was injured for much of the season and by 1986 there was a toll on his body that impacted his play and he was mostly replaced by J.C Watts by the end of the season.

    Matt Dunigan is a CFL hall-of-famer, but he (like Flutie) only played 2 seasons for the Argos. The Argos offence was excellent under his QBship, but he was injured ~50% of the time. The departure of Dunigan in '92 resulted in 20-52 until Flutie arrived. The Argos then go through a series of solid to horrible QBs between 1998 and 2002 before Damon Allen arrives. Allen is decent from 2003-2005, but had injury trouble as well. The QB position is unsettled again until Ricky Ray is traded for in 2012 and he has been fine, but again spent much time injured.

    What I'm trying to get to is that (sadly) the QB position for the Argos has been a lot of short-term fixes or outright busts and that whenever the team gets a star QB (with exception of Flutie) they never seem to stay long and/or have injury trouble.
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulwoods13 View Post
    It can be about excellence or longevity, but excellence trumps longevity IMO. Flutie was more dominant in his two years than any player in the history of the franchise, so he deserves all-time status even though he wasn't here long. He wouldn't deserve it in B.C., IMO, because of his two years there, only one was as a dominant force, and the team didn't win championships. But I have no issue with putting him on the banner in Toronto. There are definitely others who deserve recognition in future, including Thornton.
    The Argos, including playoffs, were 34-6 with Flutie as QB over those two marvelous seasons. That record speaks for itself.
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    Does anyone remember what Doug Flutie signed for in Toronto as a free agent in 1996?
    “it's not the strongest who survive nor the most intelligent but the ones most adaptable to change.’ Charles Darwin

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1971GreyCup View Post
    Does anyone remember what Doug Flutie signed for in Toronto as a free agent in 1996?
    The Argos took over his contract, which paid 1 million Cdn per year. An amount that Calgary could no longer afford, in fact Flutie never fully recieved his salary due to Calgary's financial problems.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArgoZ View Post
    The Argos took over his contract, which paid 1 million Cdn per year. An amount that Calgary could no longer afford, in fact Flutie never fully recieved his salary due to Calgary's financial problems.
    I recently saw a tweet about the CFL players Income as a current percentage of CFL revenues was 18% of $180 million. This was compared to 56% some time ago?

    If Flutie made $1m in 1996, in 2017 dollars that is $1.9 million. I was thinking that BMO Field could be filled with a similar-type signings. Would a filled stadium, more advertising and executive suite sales exceed that size salary contract?

    With 60% MLSE ownership of the Argos, would we see a move towards more marquee players? Larry Tannenbaun and George Cope clearly seemed to embrace "Doug Flutie Night". Trestman, Popp, Ball and Woods signings under the current cap are encouraging.

    Toronto historically doesn't embrace perceived semi-pro sports. Certainly a league that insists that the players subsidize the owners isn't viable. Maybe with the departure of David Braley type ownership and the arrival of Jeff Hunt type and current Argos ownership, you may see a move back towards equitable revenue sharing. It wouldn't hurt to pay a QB starter more in the CFL than a fourth string PR player in the NFL.
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    When Flutie was making $1M, virtually every team in the league was on life support. The 1996 Grey Cup was very nearly the last one. There wasn't enough money in the bank to give the players their game cheques that day -- Tim Hortons had to front the money to the league.

    If and when every team in the league is turning a decent profit, I hope the players get a bigger slice of the pie. But it would be foolhardy to go back to the days of paying marquee players -- the economics didn't work then and they don't work now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1971GreyCup View Post
    It wouldn't hurt to pay a QB starter more in the CFL than a fourth string PR player in the NFL.
    What QBs are available and better than the QBs we have, but not coming to the CFL because they can't make enough money?
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    An example Paul.

    We lose players all the time who just retire. If the players are subsidizing the league, it isn't right. Just look at public AGMs published by Community teams.

    Sooner or later the patient has to come off the morphine. I think this is certainly an issue Argos face. I think the 6% MLSE ownership understands this very clearly.
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    It's tough for the CFL finding good QB's now with the NFL adding more teams and starting to look at smaller players like Russel Wilson. Wilson back in the 60's, 70's and 80's would have be ticketed for the CFL because he is under 6 feet. Maybe even Drew Brees. Also the NCAA is not turning out small QB's much anymore. We're not seeing many good QB's the size of Flutie, Clements, Hollaway, Barnes, Dunnigan etc. coming out anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleblue View Post
    . Also the NCAA is not turning out small QB's much anymore. We're not seeing many good QB's the size of Flutie, Clements, Hollaway, Barnes, Dunnigan etc. coming out anymore.
    That's because today's bigger athlete is training differently where even the big QB's are now very athletic and mobile. The mobility advantage of a small athletic QB is no longer there.

    As for paying more to get marquee guys up here, there are still only so many you can get, even for a million a season. The days of Leo Cahill being able to offer more money than the NFL to steal players were generations ago. It will never happen again. They just need to market the players they have here better, and if necessary go door to door to sell their brand to the general public. Bobby Ackles did this in B.C. when he was alive and they flourished for a few years because of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AngeloV View Post
    That's because today's bigger athlete is training differently where even the big QB's are now very athletic and mobile. The mobility advantage of a small athletic QB is no longer there.

    As for paying more to get marquee guys up here, there are still only so many you can get, even for a million a season. The days of Leo Cahill being able to offer more money than the NFL to steal players were generations ago. It will never happen again. They just need to market the players they have here better, and if necessary go door to door to sell their brand to the general public. Bobby Ackles did this in B.C. when he was alive and they flourished for a few years because of it.
    I agree that building the fanbase up via Grassroots methods is key to long term success. I think that the Argonauts have started this process this season with events like the Open Mic nights and bringing back things like Fan Day.

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    AngeloV wrote:
    That's because today's bigger athlete is training differently where even the big QB's are now very athletic and mobile. The mobility advantage of a small athletic QB is no longer there.

    Boy I don't know about that. What was your 40 time again?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1971GreyCup View Post
    An example Paul.

    We lose players all the time who just retire. If the players are subsidizing the league, it isn't right. Just look at public AGMs published by Community teams.

    Sooner or later the patient has to come off the morphine. I think this is certainly an issue Argos face. I think the 6% MLSE ownership understands this very clearly.
    Your specific statement was with respect to paying QBs more than NFL practice roster players, so I ask again -- are there QBs out there who are better than the QBs we have in this league, who would come to this league if only we would pay them more than QBs currently make? Yes, players retire all the time, and some of them retire because they're not making a lot of money. But other than Burris and Allen (both in their 40s), when was the last time a CFL QB who could still play at a high level retired?
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleblue View Post
    AngeloV wrote:
    That's because today's bigger athlete is training differently where even the big QB's are now very athletic and mobile. The mobility advantage of a small athletic QB is no longer there.

    Boy I don't know about that. What was your 40 time again?
    I played junior ball in 1988 and 89. Fastest time was 5.7. But then again, train was a foreign word to me. I thought it meant 10 cent wing nite.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AngeloV View Post
    I played junior ball in 1988 and 89. Fastest time was 5.7. But then again, train was a foreign word to me. I thought it meant 10 cent wing nite.

    5.7 (5 minutes 7 seconds)??
    Sounds like we were on the same training program, hand the waitress $20 and wait for the wings to show up!
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    Quote Originally Posted by paulwoods13 View Post
    Your specific statement was with respect to paying QBs more than NFL practice roster players, so I ask again -- are there QBs out there who are better than the QBs we have in this league, who would come to this league if only we would pay them more than QBs currently make? Yes, players retire all the time, and some of them retire because they're not making a lot of money. But other than Burris and Allen (both in their 40s), when was the last time a CFL QB who could still play at a high level retired?
    I guess I'd direct that question to GM Jim Popp. Is there a decent pool out of the additional 32 QB now 4th onNFL rosters that you wouldn't mind a hot at? In fact, I will ask him that question and some others that come to mind. He is very accessible.

    I enjoyed the days when players played here and they did make better money than the NFL. I don't think it's a stretch for the CFL to pay more than NFL practice rosters.
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