GAME THREAD / Week 8 / Argonauts de Toronto v Alouettes de Montréal

[argonaut11xx]

I'd suggest that Fajardo will NEVER be a starting QB on a Grey Cup winning team. Mathews will float around the league, never be a full time starter.

[R.J]

Admittedly, I don't know a lot about Prukop, except from game action. He's pretty darn fast and a good athlete. He made a great ST tackle last night.

Prukop is atheltic and a decent arm IMO, could be someone worth developing. That TD pass he threw in the pre season was a thing of beauty, although one pass does not make a qb lol.

Both Mathews and Fajardo were not impressive. In terms of back-up QB's these guys are about 50-60% as good as Harris and Collaros were as Argo backup QB's.

The latter were able to step up and win games when Ray was injured.

Mathews and Fajardo will only lose games, as they are not ready, and frankly not good enough.

Only hope the Argo's have to make the playoffs is a healthy Ricky Ray

Agreed on Matthews, TBH I see no point in wasting time on him. Jury is still out on Fajardo and the others IMO.

I guess not surprising that some people are prepared to write two QBs off based on half a game each. Neither guy has had anything like a chance to be "the guy." We know Trestman gives his No. 1 QB all the reps in practice (a method I fervently disagree with), but this past week the two guys apparently split reps. If one of them gets a sustained period of all/most reps AND plays a few full games, we'll have a better idea of what they are capable of.

Yep, maybe still too early, but Matthews has been up here in the CFL for awhile, IMO should have progressed at least a little. You and I agree on Trestmans practice method.

[jerrym]

Fajardo reminds me to some extent of Kerry Joseph. Powerful runner for a QB and a fairly strong arm but not that accurate. He also seemed to be operating on adrenaline, which had him banging into defenders rather than going down while in the run, which sooner or later will catch up with him if he doesn't adjust to the QBs primary role. Being high on adrenaline is great for many positions in football, but has its limitations at QB, where it tends to inhibit analysis of the field of play, as seen by the many plays that appeared to start as passing situations but the instant he couldn't see an open receiver turned into running plays. The adrenaline all seemed to make his passing somewhat erratic. If he can learn from experience and Ray how to remain calm in difficult game situations, he could develop into a good QB, but he has a long way to go IMO.

[argolio]

Wynn was our best player on the night.

On the Mathews fumble (I believe it was 2nd and 1), I think Fajardo should gave been out there with the short yardage team.

Fajardo's mobility was the obvious key point of difference between the two QBs, but if a QB can't consistently make plays from the pocket, you'll never win more than you lose in today's football. Both guys generated nothing from the pocket. On the plus side, at least they didn't throw a bunch of pics.

[argotom]

Coach Trestman will earn his salary this year if he can right the ship in this season that started positively but now has quickly turned into a potential disaster, second year running.

[ArgoRavi]

Coach Trestman will earn his salary this year if he can right the ship in this season that started positively but now has quickly turned into a potential disaster, second year running.

I don't think we are on the verge of any disaster. Honestly, 3-5 after 8 games doesn't surprise me given how bad this team was at the end of last season and the shortened off-season Popp and Trestman had to work with. I still expect this team to be much better in the second half of the season than in the first half.

[Argo57]

I don't think we are on the verge of any disaster. Honestly, 3-5 after 8 games doesn't surprise me given how bad this team was at the end of last season and the shortened off-season Popp and Trestman had to work with. I still expect this team to be much better in the second half of the season than in the first half.

That's how I see it as well Ravi, overall much better talent level and they are playing hard which in itself is a huge improvement over 2016.

[RB957]

Coach Trestman will earn his salary this year if he can right the ship in this season that started positively but now has quickly turned into a potential disaster, second year running.

This season is hardly a potential disaster. As others have said, our defence is playing solid football, and when Ricky was healthy the offence was able to produce. IMO, the only game we really weren't in with a chance to win was against Calgary. So our record could have been better. With a win on Saturday we are back in a tie for first place. The big issue is the disparity between East Division and West Division teams to this point of the season. However, even if that continues, all we have to do is finish in second to guarantee a home playoff date. Given the struggles that the Redblacks and TiCats have had, that is not unreasonable.

[paulwoods13]

This season is hardly a potential disaster. As others have said, our defence is playing solid football, and when Ricky was healthy the offence was able to produce. IMO, the only game we really weren't in with a chance to win was against Calgary. So our record could have been better. With a win on Saturday we are back in a tie for first place. The big issue is the disparity between East Division and West Division teams to this point of the season. However, even if that continues, all we have to do is finish in second to guarantee a home playoff date. Given the struggles that the Redblacks and TiCats have had, that is not unreasonable.

Just to clarify, if we win Saturday we will be in sole possession of first place at 4-5. Montreal would be at 3-5, with a game in hand.

[RB957]

Just to clarify, if we win Saturday we will be in sole possession of first place at 4-5. Montreal would be at 3-5, with a game in hand.

Thanks for correcting me. And it shall be so!!!

[paulwoods13]

We clearly have a very solid defence, with some depth altho not as much as I'd like at DE and DB. Six Game 1 defensive starters are out and the D still played well on Friday. We have had good pressure on the QB the past two games, so Butler's absence isn't as noticeable as it might have been. We've been able to get key stops to force FGs or punts at times. That's something to build on and it should allow us to stay competitive in games against eastern teams. If RR gets healthy and we can get the o-line working at at least an average level, we should be able to stay in the playoff hunt all year.

[ArgoZ]

We clearly have a very solid defence, with some depth altho not as much as I'd like at DE and DB. Six Game 1 defensive starters are out and the D still played well on Friday. We have had good pressure on the QB the past two games, so Butler's absence isn't as noticeable as it might have been. We've been able to get key stops to force FGs or punts at times. That's something to build on and it should allow us to stay competitive in games against eastern teams. If RR gets healthy and we can get the o-line working at at least an average level, we should be able to stay in the playoff hunt all year.

The team would look even better if we made some key catches, probably resulting in another win or two. I like our Cdn receiver depth. With all the dropsies, Williams, Jones, Noel should all be playing/starting, IMO. It would open up possibilities for a stronger line in the future. I do like the illustration of Rob Johnson/Doug Flutie that Shirley used. The Bills line "gelled" when Flutie played, LOL. A mobile QB makes the line look so much better. Ray is a great QB, but no way does he roll out and make a play like Fajardo did last game. Not fair to ask for Flutie, if we had someone like Collaros (pre-concussion), I think the team would be looking pretty solid. Not trying to start that debate again, the line just isn't good enough for a pocket passer like Ray.

[paulwoods13]

The team would look even better if we made some key catches, probably resulting in another win or two. I like our Cdn receiver depth. With all the dropsies, Williams, Jones, Noel should all be playing/starting, IMO. It would open up possibilities for a stronger line in the future. I do like the illustration of Rob Johnson/Doug Flutie that Shirley used. The Bills line "gelled" when Flutie played, LOL. A mobile QB makes the line look so much better. Ray is a great QB, but no way does he roll out and make a play like Fajardo did last game. Not fair to ask for Flutie, if we had someone like Collaros (pre-concussion), I think the team would be looking pretty solid. Not trying to start that debate again, the line just isn't good enough for a pocket passer like Ray.

The o-line needs to be better for sure, but it was good enough for RR to average nearly 400 yards a game for six weeks. Are you suggesting it's bad enough to bench him in favour of Collaros.

As for the receivers, if you really want to start Williams, Noel and Jones, which INTs would you sit? Green? Edwards? Posey (when healthy)? Fuller? Paden? Don't get me wrong, I think Williams and Noel have bright futures, and maybe Jones as well (altho he has hardly played in a season and a half), but IMO it's a knee-jerk reaction to demand they play just because our other receivers have dropped some passes. Yes, we have dropped a lot of passes this season (every single starting receiver is guilty), but there's nothing magical about those other guys.

[PullTogether73]

The o-line needs to be better for sure, but it was good enough for RR to average nearly 400 yards a game for six weeks. Are you suggesting it's bad enough to bench him in favour of Collaros.

As for the receivers, if you really want to start Williams, Noel and Jones, which INTs would you sit? Green? Edwards? Posey (when healthy)? Fuller? Paden? Don't get me wrong, I think Williams and Noel have bright futures, and maybe Jones as well (altho he has hardly played in a season and a half), but IMO it's a knee-jerk reaction to demand they play just because our other receivers have dropped some passes. Yes, we have dropped a lot of passes this season (every single starting receiver is guilty), but there's nothing magical about those other guys.

Fuller has dropped enough passes this season to be replaced by one of the NATs IMO.
As a U of T alumnus myself, I would like to see what Noel could do if given a game or two as a receiver.

[Shatto]

The Argos have four excellent receivers-Green, Edwards, Coombs and Posey (when healthy). Fuller has dropped a fair number of passes but more concerning is his inability to get separation. Paden is reasonably capable but Ottawa thought he was replaceable and his play to date seems to confirm their evaluation. The team has Williams, Noel, Jones and even Ralph, who could play as the 5th receiver and play as well as Fuller and Paden have been playing. That also provides the added benefit of being able to dress another International player on the OL or DL.

A win on Saturday puts us right back into the fight for first pace but a loss would be the fourth in a row and could start a slide. Let's hope for a good crowd but more importantly a win.

[ArgoZ]

The o-line needs to be better for sure, but it was good enough for RR to average nearly 400 yards a game for six weeks. Are you suggesting it's bad enough to bench him in favour of Collaros.

As for the receivers, if you really want to start Williams, Noel and Jones, which INTs would you sit? Green? Edwards? Posey (when healthy)? Fuller? Paden? Don't get me wrong, I think Williams and Noel have bright futures, and maybe Jones as well (altho he has hardly played in a season and a half), but IMO it's a knee-jerk reaction to demand they play just because our other receivers have dropped some passes. Yes, we have dropped a lot of passes this season (every single starting receiver is guilty), but there's nothing magical about those other guys.

Aside from Green and Edwards, any other International I'm good with replacing. The Cdns might not be magical, but they can't do any worse. I'm thinking the only way to help the OL is adding Americans, probably by NFL cuts and playing our Cdn receivers could allow this.

It seems there are always OL problems everywhere in the league. Quarterbacks like Ray are too hard to protect. If the line can't improve, a mobile QB would help. Hamilton's OL looks worse, Collaros has little time, but I think a player like him would be doing ok here.

[paulwoods13]

There's little question that the only way to upgrade the o-line at this stage would be with another INT. Jamal Campbell has played a lot of snaps as a sixth o-lineman but likely isn't yet ready to become a FT OT, Watman/Deane are more or less interchangeable, and below them the NATs (Sackey and Kolankowski) have had no playing time so are not ready. I don't think either of our INT OTs have been all that great, so I don't know that putting one of them in at RT or RG would make a huge difference. If we can find a game-changing INT from NFL cuts or somewhere else, I'd be fine with sitting an INT receiver. But if and when Posey gets healthy, I want him in the lineup.

[OV Argo]

There's little question that the only way to upgrade the o-line at this stage would be with another INT. Jamal Campbell has played a lot of snaps as a sixth o-lineman but likely isn't yet ready to become a FT OT, Watman/Deane are more or less interchangeable, and below them the NATs (Sackey and Kolankowski) have had no playing time so are not ready. I don't think either of our INT OTs have been all that great, so I don't know that putting one of them in at RT or RG would make a huge difference. If we can find a game-changing INT from NFL cuts or somewhere else, I'd be fine with sitting an INT receiver. But if and when Posey gets healthy, I want him in the lineup.

"Little question" ??? - according to who ?

Do you have any idea on how many O-linemen from last year's draft ended up starting for their team's last season? The Argos used their top draft pick this year on Mason Woods - massive O-lineman with significant starting experience at guard in Div I US college ball. He MIGHT be an upgrade on either of the starting guards (particularly Watman/Deane, but Holmes has struggled often too IMO).

But wait - maybe all young Canadian players need years to "develop" or move up a poorly thought out pre-season depth chart that often happens ? Guess Ottawa missed that memo last year when rookie draft pick Lauzon-Seguin started for them including in a GC win?; Hamilton too as draft pick Revenberg replaced and was an upgrade over an obviously struggling vet Dyakownski ?

Paden has shown little in the CFL other than being able to catch a few passes dropped right in his bread basket and that drop last week in the end zone was terrible and added to his multi drops resume from Ottawa. He gets to play over Noel or Jones or Ralph simply because of his passport - with little question.

[doubleblue]

"Little question" ??? - according to who ?

Do you have any idea on how many O-linemen from last year's draft ended up starting for their team's last season? The Argos used their top draft pick this year on Mason Woods - massive O-lineman with significant starting experience at guard in Div I US college ball. He MIGHT be an upgrade on either of the starting guards (particularly Watman/Deane, but Holmes has struggled often too IMO).

But wait - maybe all young Canadian players need years to "develop" or move up a poorly thought out pre-season depth chart that often happens ? Guess Ottawa missed that memo last year when rookie draft pick Lauzon-Seguin started for them including in a GC win?; Hamilton too as draft pick Revenberg replaced and was an upgrade over an obviously struggling vet Dyakownski ?

Paden has shown little in the CFL other than being able to catch a few passes dropped right in his bread basket and that drop last week in the end zone was terrible and added to his multi drops resume from Ottawa. He gets to play over Noel or Jones or Ralph simply because of his passport - with little question.

Well I have made no bones about my opinion on Lauzon-Seguin, and that Barker should have drafted him instead of Jones. Would have solved the RG position for quite a while. But there are not a lot of Canadians out of the CIS ready to start their first year IMO. Not that they're not talented, but this league is pretty good, and I mean Pretty Good. I don't know what's going on with the Jones kid. I don't think he has been badly injured this year, just doesn't seem to be a fit for Trestman's offense I guess.
We're always on the outside looking in and don't know the likes and dislikes Coaches have for players or what else they know about them that factor into who stays and who sits or go's.
I sure if OV was the Coach and PW and Angelo were trying out they wouldn't survive the first round of cuts.

[AngeloV]

Well I have made no bones about my opinion on Lauzon-Seguin, and that Barker should have drafted him instead of Jones. Would have solved the RG position for quite a while.

No guarantee of that. With the way FA works now, you really can only count on keeping any new players to the league for 2 years. This is a major reason that a lot of teams have no issues trading draft picks these days.