GAME THREAD / Week 10 / Toronto @ Calgary

[PullTogether73]

When the team's defense outscores the offence, chances of a win aren't good.

[argotom]

Worst offensive production of the year.
Virtually no running game and never a threat passing, way too many check downs.
The Defense had a great first half, but could not hold on.
The special team with the return game was also abysmal.
Thank goodness we have the cats, but don't look now the RB are in the rear view mirror.

[OV Argo]

ZERO points by the offence and a loss ? - gee, what a shocker. Afraid to throw the ball downfield? - this is a very good Calgary secondary with all their starters in, but you still have to challenge them deep; Cross with the biggest play - he needs to get the ball more when he shows he can make yards; Fuller is doing zip, but i guess Noel rates zero playing time at receiver? run game - not worth mentioning anymore - Trestman has little use for it and the run blocking by the O-line is not that good.

Good game by the Argo D again - even with the revamped secondary; still not enough outside pass rush with Butler out, and Lemon is not near what he has been in the past, and Davis - although he has shown a few flashes - is just not good enough at DE; most CFL teams are going with a lot of D-line rotation and it often works with fresh guys helping to make plays; but not Chamblin with DEs; the back-ups get zero playing time basically - must be lacking something on their resumes.

[Stevoman]

The D played great but the O was tentative and slow. This is a game where a change of pace offence (hurry up with Fajardo or something) would come in handy. Green seemed off today too with 3 drops. Declan Cross continues to impress. Going to be a big labour day game next week!

[Wobbler]

We lost on the road in Calgary - no surprise.

Our D was surprisingly effective, but...

[ArgoRavi]

ZERO points by the offence and a loss ? - gee, what a shocker. Afraid to throw the ball downfield? - this is a very good Calgary secondary with all their starters in, but you still have to challenge them deep; Cross with the biggest play - he needs to get the ball more when he shows he can make yards; Fuller is doing zip, but i guess Noel rates zero playing time at receiver? run game - not worth mentioning anymore - Trestman has little use for it and the run blocking by the O-line is not that good.

How many times should Cross get the ball and at whose expense? I like Cross and think that he is a very useful player but I can't see him getting the ball 5 to 7 times a games.

Good game by the Argo D again - even with the revamped secondary; still not enough outside pass rush with Butler out, and Lemon is not near what he has been in the past, and Davis - although he has shown a few flashes - is just not good enough at DE; most CFL teams are going with a lot of D-line rotation and it often works with fresh guys helping to make plays; but not Chamblin with DEs; the back-ups get zero playing time basically - must be lacking something on their resumes.

So, only the Canadian defensive linemen are doing a good job, OV?

[ArgoRavi]

We lost on the road in Calgary - no surprise.

Our D was surprisingly effective, but...

The Argos aren't where they need to be but were much more competitive tonight compared to the last game against the Stamps. They have half of the season to close the gap and I am optimistic that they will do so. Obviously, they need more work on offence and special teams but the defence has certainly come along nicely, despite all of the injuries.

Here is Trestman's take on the game with a number of questions from Frank Z.: https://www.argonauts.ca/2017/08/27/...-10-august-26/

[Rich]

How many times should Cross get the ball and at whose expense? I like Cross and think that he is a very useful player but I can't see him getting the ball 5 to 7 times a games.


So, only the Canadian defensive linemen are doing a good job, OV?

Cross can do a lot of things. He's a great blocker, he gets open and he's got deceptive speed. Why NOT give him the ball 5 to 7 times a game?

As for the D-Line, I'd agree that Jeff Finley was the standout tonight.

[gilthethrill]

Cross can do a lot of things. He's a great blocker, he gets open and he's got deceptive speed. Why NOT give him the ball 5 to 7 times a game?

As for the D-Line, I'd agree that Jeff Finley was the standout tonight.

As for Finley he came off the field in the 3rd quarter irate. Next time I saw him he had his left arm in a sling. I trust TSN sideline reporter made mention of that?

[OV Argo]

How many times should Cross get the ball and at whose expense? I like Cross and think that he is a very useful player but I can't see him getting the ball 5 to 7 times a games.



So, only the Canadian defensive linemen are doing a good job, OV?

I've mentioned several times in the past here how impressed I have been with rookie import Dylan Wynn's play at DT, along with also being a fan of Victor Butler (liked his resume when he was signed) from game one, but maybe you missed that Ravi? And OMG NO, it's just not right to be critical of any American player and praise Canadian players or hope that some young ones get a shot at playing time ? - that seems to be the taught attitude of some.

And yes - Cross could be getting the ball 5 or more times a game; when a player and his position are being effective on offence, it can be rewarded with more work; and maybe makes the D look to stop it and opens things up for other parts of the offence. Ever heard of Bob Bronk or Warren Hudson ? ;o) Or would you rather see more of the same old, standard CFL offence of today - with QBs throwing the ball way across the field horizonatally for an incompletion or a 3 yard gain ?

[AngeloV]

Plain and simple. Argos need to do something about that O-Line. It was horrific. Perhaps moving CVZ to guard and Washington to RT. Ray had no choice but to look for outlets all night. They will not beat a good pressure D as they are now.

[AngeloV]

The Argos aren't where they need to be but were much more competitive tonight compared to the last game against the Stamps. They have half of the season to close the gap and I am optimistic that they will do so. Obviously, they need more work on offence and special teams but the defence has certainly come along nicely, despite all of the injuries.

Here is Trestman's take on the game with a number of questions from Frank Z.: https://www.argonauts.ca/2017/08/27/...-10-august-26/

Cross is making some big plays because they are tendency breakers. Give him 5-7 touches a game and that will no longer be the case.

[R.J]

Oline needs to be fixed, as does the run game. Defence looking good, and tbh I'm pleasantly surprised as I would've never expected it. Gaydosh looked pretty good IMO, if the guy can stay healthy, I think he could be a huge pick for this team.

Trestman needs to get away from the predictable play calling IMO, pretty clear that teams are aware that Ray struggles against the zone, and gets conservative.

[cfl-cis fan]

Cross is making some big plays because they are tendency breakers. Give him 5-7 touches a game and that will no longer be the case.

Trust in the coaching staff as they continue to develop this young player. Last year every one on this board wanted him cut as a rookie. Let him develop at the pace the coaching is taking him.

[paulwoods13]

Trust in the coaching staff as they continue to develop this young player. Last year every one on this board wanted him cut as a rookie. Let him develop at the pace the coaching is taking him.

Umm, no -- not everyone on this board wanted him cut last year. In fact, I believe there were maybe a grand total of two posters who nonsensically called for him to be cut after he dropped one pass.

[Argo57]

Cross is making some big plays because they are tendency breakers. Give him 5-7 touches a game and that will no longer be the case.

If you add Cross into the mix a little more often it will give the oppositions D something else to think about and open up things elsewhere.
O-Line (pass protection and run blocking) are sub standard (to be kind) and need to be fixed, subsequently the Argos pose no run threat which in itself is a big problem.
Fuller is next to useless out there, not sure why they keep putting him out on the field?

[paulwoods13]

I wasn't able to see the game and likely won't have time to watch it on PVR, but based on the comments here, it seems we are back into "o-line-sucks" territory. We've had a few games where the line played well (most of the previous two, in fact) but generally speaking this has felt like our main weakness all season. Since Fuller is hardly being used or contributing, we certainly could go with a second INT o-lineman -- the question is, do we have one who would be an upgrade over the current group? Our Game 1 starter at LT was benched after a few games so it's probably folly to assume he could slide in at RT and dominate. And moving VZ to RG after so many years at RT might not be a slam dunk, either. Also, if we were to go with two INTs on the o-line, we would definitely be able to start only one INT at DT. If Laing were healthy I'd feel a lot better about that.

[OV Argo]

If you add Cross into the mix a little more often it will give the oppositions D something else to think about and open up things elsewhere.
O-Line (pass protection and run blocking) are sub standard (to be kind) and need to be fixed, subsequently the Argos pose no run threat which in itself is a big problem.
Fuller is next to useless out there, not sure why they keep putting him out on the field?

Thing is - there are other players who can be tried, along with different play-calling on offence to help mix things up. But maybe this coaching staff has little faith in depth or back-ups or PR players who could be tried to help upgrade. Like to see Mason Woods or Shockey or a new import O-lineman maybe (sorry, can't name any that are sitting around waiting to be CFL superstars though) be given a shot to see if they can upgrade; or Noel or Jones or somebody else get a shot in the receiving corps to replace Fuller if he is not getting anything done - why not try ?

And while Trestman has been known as a sharp offensive coach who knows how to call smart games, last game against the Stamps was embarrassingly weak IMO - ZERO offensive points; no deep passing, no real ground game attempt; and i get that the offensive line is part of the problem, just not all of it to be scape-goated as THE only problem on offence. The coaches have to be able to call a smart offensive game that takes into account the style and personnel of the defence. Same old - Ray standing in the pocket, hoping to hold onto the ball a long time to go thru reads, only to throw a 5 yard completion = predictable; so - more Cross (on dump passes or give him some carries); or pound a big back like Wilder some at the D; or throw some long-bombs to receivers who typically are ignored or not tried on deep routes; how many jet sweep or reverse/double reverse to receiver plays has this offence run this year?; what about putting the ball into the hand of A, Edwards (ex-star college ball QB) on some gadget play where he throws well down field (or has the option to fake that and run)? - would be examples of things or wrinkles that could be tried to provide some offensive diversity. Ray does not have a good enough O-line to stand in the pocket all day and make reads; but maybe Trestman can't see that or else thinks that has to be the basis for the offence 95 % of the time ???

[cfl-cis fan]

Thing is - there are other players who can be tried, along with different play-calling on offence to help mix things up. But maybe this coaching staff has little faith in depth or back-ups or PR players who could be tried to help upgrade. Like to see Mason Woods or Shockey or a new import O-lineman maybe (sorry, can't name any that are sitting around waiting to be CFL superstars though) be given a shot to see if they can upgrade; or Noel or Jones or somebody else get a shot in the receiving corps to replace Fuller if he is not getting anything done - why not try ?

And while Trestman has been known as a sharp offensive coach who knows how to call smart games, last game against the Stamps was embarrassingly weak IMO - ZERO offensive points; no deep passing, no real ground game attempt; and i get that the offensive line is part of the problem, just not all of it to be scape-goated as THE only problem on offence. The coaches have to be able to call a smart offensive game that takes into account the style and personnel of the defence. Same old - Ray standing in the pocket, hoping to hold onto the ball a long time to go thru reads, only to throw a 5 yard completion = predictable; so - more Cross (on dump passes or give him some carries); or pound a big back like Wilder some at the D; or throw some long-bombs to receivers who typically are ignored or not tried on deep routes; how many jet sweep or reverse/double reverse to receiver plays has this offence run this year?; what about putting the ball into the hand of A, Edwards (ex-star college ball QB) on some gadget play where he throws well down field (or has the option to fake that and run)? - would be examples of things or wrinkles that could be tried to provide some offensive diversity. Ray does not have a good enough O-line to stand in the pocket all day and make reads; but maybe Trestman can't see that or else thinks that has to be the basis for the offence 95 % of the time ???

Have to agree, can not see why both Jones and Noel are not given a shot, how can they be any worse than Fuller has been recently.

[Rich]

i get that the offensive line is part of the problem, just not all of it to be scape-goated as THE only problem on offence.

The play-calling and the receivers need to share the blame too. Many times Ricky was able to get to his second and third reads and still couldn't pull the trigger. It seemed like guys just weren't getting open. Fuller is hopeless and needs to be cut. Jimmy Ralph cannot adequately replace Coombs. Maybe Posey was rusty on his routes. Maybe Calgary's secondary is just too good. Whatever the case, the offensive disaster can't all be blamed the O-Line.