GAME THREAD / Week 10 / Toronto @ Calgary

[ArgoZ]

The play-calling and the receivers need to share the blame too. Many times Ricky was able to get to his second and third reads and still couldn't pull the trigger. It seemed like guys just weren't getting open. Fuller is hopeless and needs to be cut. Jimmy Ralph cannot adequately replace Coombs. Maybe Posey was rusty on his routes. Maybe Calgary's secondary is just too good. Whatever the case, the offensive disaster can't all be blamed the O-Line.

After watching the game on PVR this morning (yes I watched the fight), the O-line was satisfactory. Ray often had time to get rid of the ball, but didn't for whatever reason. I admire that he protects the ball, but he has to throw it away more often.

[Shatto]

The Stamps OL was not a lot better than the Argos IMO. The difference is they have a mobile QB who can get an extra second or so by successfully moving the pocket, plus they have an outstanding RB. Since the Stamps were going for broke rushing Ray, why not put Fajardo in for a few downs to give the offense a different look.
At the risk of beating a dead horse, Fuller needs to be replaced. At BMO I have watched him carefully and he just doesn't get any separation. It looks like he has definitely lost a step or two. Why not put Jackson, in Coombs spot and replace Fuller with either Williams, Noel or Jones. I'd be very surprised if they don't perform better than Fuller.

[Rich]

The Stamps OL was not a lot better than the Argos IMO. The difference is they have a mobile QB who can get an extra second or so by successfully moving the pocket

Actually i thought Ricky looked a little more nimble than he has in years. I can't remember the last time he escaped out of the pocket as often as he did Saturday. He bought a lot of extra time, and STILL couldn't find open guys. Maybe he just wasn't seeing the field very well on this night.

[paulwoods13]

So it would seem either receivers weren't getting open, or they were and Ricky couldn't find them. On the balance of probabilities, I would be more inclined to imagine the former than the latter.

Coombs' absence looms large. Posey may not be in mid-season form at this point. Green may have been doubled up. Fuller is Fuller. And the fifth spot is often held down by either a sixth o-lineman or a fullback who is used primarily as a blocker and occasionally as an outlet.

The fact we need to have a sixth (and often a seventh) blocker on virtually every passing play is a fundamental problem because it really limits our downfield options.

[AngeloV]

After watching the game on PVR this morning (yes I watched the fight), the O-line was satisfactory. Ray often had time to get rid of the ball, but didn't for whatever reason. I admire that he protects the ball, but he has to throw it away more often.

We must have been watching different games. The o-line was pushed back all night. Even when it looked like Ray may have had time to pass, the line was pushed back to the point where he wouldn't have been able to step into his throws.

[gilthethrill]

I don't think enough has been said about the Vaughn TD int. Sitting in the front row in Calgary, I had to watch the highlights to appreciate what a tough catch that was especially with clumsy McDaniel tripping over him. That makes 2 goal area pics in 2 games for the Hamilton cast off.

But it seemed too many blocking infractions on returns that set up long fields, the inability to convert on short yardage and offensive line play continue to haunt this team. Really love the Defence that Chamblin has installed.

There is no way, no freaking way we lose on Labour Day.

[timlb01]

I don't think enough has been said about the Vaughn TD int. Sitting in the front row in Calgary, I had to watch the highlights to appreciate what a tough catch that was especially with clumsy McDaniel tripping over him. That makes 2 goal area pics in 2 games for the Hamilton cast off.

But it seemed too many blocking infractions on returns that set up long fields, the inability to convert on short yardage and offensive line play continue to haunt this team. Really love the Defence that Chamblin has installed.

There is no way, no freaking way we lose on Labour Day.

I would never say that about Labour Day. Never. The TiCats could lose every game for 6 years and I would still be afraid of losing Labour Day. Too many bad trips down the QEW.

[timlb01]

How different could this game had been if SJ made a couple of those catches. I agree with most I really don't see what Fuller is doing but the coaching staff must believe he is a better choice than others mentioned here. This was an epic defensive battle with the Argos taking too many penalties again. In the end this team is not far from being very good and this was the first egg the offense laid this year. Defense was much better than I thought it would be not only this game but the entire year. Although we are all disappointed with the performance of the offense there are still many positives about this team this year. I expect the offense will be productive on Monday.

[RB957]

The Stamps OL was not a lot better than the Argos IMO. The difference is they have a mobile QB who can get an extra second or so by successfully moving the pocket, plus they have an outstanding RB. Since the Stamps were going for broke rushing Ray, why not put Fajardo in for a few downs to give the offense a different look.
At the risk of beating a dead horse, Fuller needs to be replaced. At BMO I have watched him carefully and he just doesn't get any separation. It looks like he has definitely lost a step or two. Why not put Jackson, in Coombs spot and replace Fuller with either Williams, Noel or Jones. I'd be very surprised if they don't perform better than Fuller.

YES!! I agree with your assessment regarding Fuller. He can't get separation, and hasn't made catches in traffic. Time to make a change there for sure. Also, why is it that when other teams throw short passes to the sidelines, they have blockers in front of the receivers? We do that, and all I see is our receiver surrounded by 3 or 4 defenders. I don't get it.

[gilthethrill]

I would never say that about Labour Day. Never. The TiCats could lose every game for 6 years and I would still be afraid of losing Labour Day. Too many bad trips down the QEW.

Normally I would agree with you Tim, but this season is different. The Cats are a total mess, where I see Trestman really preparing his team well this week. If I am not mistaken, both Laurent and Atkinson may miss this game. Ray should have a field day.

I am still bitter about last year's Labour Day loss in case you had not noticed.

[AngeloV]

YES!! I agree with your assessment regarding Fuller. He can't get separation, and hasn't made catches in traffic. Time to make a change there for sure. Also, why is it that when other teams throw short passes to the sidelines, they have blockers in front of the receivers? We do that, and all I see is our receiver surrounded by 3 or 4 defenders. I don't get it.

I would have no problem replacing Fuller with either Williams or Noel, if they make a ratio change on the O-line to go with it. I've made no bones about the fact that I like Fuller and his ability to both clear for underneath guys and block downfield, but all that is useless if Ray can't step into his throws. Argos O-line has been inconsistent to say the least, but they really have been exposed as not good enough against an elite D like Calgary's.

[Jon Gonzo]

Our two MVP's on O had bad days. We know how that goes. The O-Line was getting pushed, just as our D was pushing theirs. As someone mentioned, the difference in that equation is mobility. But one of the under mentioned reasons for the "L.".......Alex Singleton (a guy we should probably have) and what I think is the best D-Backfield in the game.

The O Line needs to get better, against better teams. They are average. I wonder what Greg Van Roten is doing right now?

We need other receivers to pick up the slack if SJ ain't owning it. In Montreal, if it wasn't Solomon Jr. it was Ben Cahoon. Our underneath guy is hurt and Fuller isn't stepping up as an import. He'll need to. And soon.

I see two changes that I'd make on Offense.

[OV Argo]

Our two MVP's on O had bad days. We know how that goes. The O-Line was getting pushed, just as our D was pushing theirs. As someone mentioned, the difference in that equation is mobility. But one of the under mentioned reasons for the "L.".......Alex Singleton (a guy we should probably have) and what I think is the best D-Backfield in the game.

The O Line needs to get better, against better teams. They are average. I wonder what Greg Van Roten is doing right now?

We need other receivers to pick up the slack if SJ ain't owning it. In Montreal, if it wasn't Solomon Jr. it was Ben Cahoon. Our underneath guy is hurt and Fuller isn't stepping up as an import. He'll need to. And soon.

I see two changes that I'd make on Offense.

Yep - Barker coulda drafted Singleton instead of Brian Jones - who the new braintrust has no use for; and Singleton is the best MLB in the league now IMO (playing better than Sol-E - who I think is an outstanding talent - this season); draft hindsight being 20/20 and all.

Again - varied opinions on the O-line; they ain't that good IMO, and I'd try a change or two (like giving top draft pick Mason Woods a shot at guard; or maybe call Van Roten again); but they are also hampered by a simple, too often predictable offence that I thought Trestman would not allow; way more diversity in play-calling is needed rather than Ricky Ray trying to sit in the pocket for 10 steamboats and make reads, 90% of the plays.

As far as receiver and help getting a more varied look; i'd replace Fuller with a tandem of Williams & Noel and let these guys try to get deep on DBs who do not have a book on them yet; and Coombs' spot could be a tandem of Martese Jackson (in a Durie type dump pass / get YAC yards role) and Brian Jones - big target with hands/catch radius who can run over or drag small defenders for extra yards (a la Sinopoli or Nik Lewis).

[ArgoZ]

We must have been watching different games. The o-line was pushed back all night. Even when it looked like Ray may have had time to pass, the line was pushed back to the point where he wouldn't have been able to step into his throws.

I can conceed that they were pushed back, but as another poster mentioned, so was Calgary's and they put up 300+yards passing. Against a good defence, they provided Ray with some time. You can watch him make 2, 3 reads. It's seems too hard to consistently protect a pure pocket passer like Ray. The offence has good games, then against a well coached team, they struggle and look lost. The line needs work, but they are not the sole problem when after his 3rd read, Ray has to tuck and take a sack. I can't be the only one that was yelling "get rid of it" during the broadcast.

[paulwoods13]

Again, how do Ricky Ray's options compare to other QBs'? He has five guys, sometimes four, to choose from on most plays since we almost always have a sixth o-lineman in, and sometimes a TE/FB as well. Other QBs often/usually have six guys running routes. His best option (Green) is having an all-star year and as a result is likely getting extra coverage. His second-best option (Coombs) is gone for weeks. His third-best option (Edwards) is a pretty decent player who is up and down at this point. His fourth-best option (Posey) just came back after missing six games. His fifth-best option is a RB running check-down routes (Whitaker). Then we're into either an older receiver who seems to have trouble getting open (Fuller) or a young FB/TE who has shown flashes but is never gonna stretch a defence (Cross). It's not a ton to work with. Protection breaks down, often no one's open.

[AngeloV]

I can conceed that they were pushed back, but as another poster mentioned, so was Calgary's and they put up 300+yards passing. Against a good defence, they provided Ray with some time. You can watch him make 2, 3 reads. It's seems too hard to consistently protect a pure pocket passer like Ray. The offence has good games, then against a well coached team, they struggle and look lost. The line needs work, but they are not the sole problem when after his 3rd read, Ray has to tuck and take a sack. I can't be the only one that was yelling "get rid of it" during the broadcast.

Agree that the line isn't the only problem, as the have had some good games. But IMO, it is the weakest part of this team. Disagree that BLM saw similar pressure to Ray. Not even close, and it had nothing to do with his moving better in the pocket.

[OV Argo]

Again, how do Ricky Ray's options compare to other QBs'? He has five guys, sometimes four, to choose from on most plays since we almost always have a sixth o-lineman in, and sometimes a TE/FB as well. Other QBs often/usually have six guys running routes. His best option (Green) is having an all-star year and as a result is likely getting extra coverage. His second-best option (Coombs) is gone for weeks. His third-best option (Edwards) is a pretty decent player who is up and down at this point. His fourth-best option (Posey) just came back after missing six games. His fifth-best option is a RB running check-down routes (Whitaker). Then we're into either an older receiver who seems to have trouble getting open (Fuller) or a young FB/TE who has shown flashes but is never gonna stretch a defence (Cross). It's not a ton to work with. Protection breaks down, often no one's open.

Again - same old 5 pack look and just one simpleton run play as a tendency breaker and with Ray sitting in the pocket trying to make reads on route trees, is not going to work against a good defence with a good pass rush, and with an iffy O-line having troubles.

SO - wayyyy more diversity on offence MIGHT help; we've talked about the other options or different looks that might help - get the ball to Cross 5 or 6 times a game instead of 1 or 2; bang a big back like Wilder 5 or 6 times in ground game rather than 1 or 2 plays; more of Martese Jackson on dump passes or a big, bruising slotback like Jones gets a few throws; a jet sweep or reverse or 2 to a speedy receiver; have ex-QB A. Edwards get the ball in the backfield for an option pass or run play, etc. Ray hoping to load it up to SJ Green or Posey as the main focus of the offence = not good enough; and there IS lots more to work with.

[Wobbler]

I like the idea of greater offensive diversity, but I think it'll need to be mostly passing diversity. Ray isn't great at disguising handoffs (or subterfuge in general, actually - his pump fakes don't seem to fool anyone either), our backs are average ball carriers at best, and our OL hasn't shown much ability to create lanes. But with a veteran coach, veteran QB, and veteran receivers, our passing game could be more exotic if that's what is needed.

Despite some early frustration I'm glad that we've continued to give Wilder Jr. some carries. He's still not very effective yet, but he might be improving.

[argolio]

The clear defining factor for me in this game was our o-line getting manhandled. When the opponent consistently gets pressure up the middle, it doesn't matter what you call. Looked like McEwen and Watman had rough games.

Considering how long they were on the field, it was also a testament to the D that we held them to 23 points.

And about that P.I. on Vaughn: imagine it was a close game, we needed to challenge an obvious error in the 4th quarter, but had no challenge. If they actually do grade officials, the guy who called this penalty needs to sit for the rest of the season.

Glad we're done with that team.

[Wobbler]

Glad we're done with that team.

If we're lucky, they'll murder us in the Grey Cup game too.