GAME THREAD / Week 17 / Toronto @ Edmonton

[AngeloV]

Happy they're in the playoffs but this team is frustrating to watch.

Outside of Calgary and Montreal, there really is a lot of parity in the CFL. I hate losing, and this type of loss is like a punch in the stomach, but it's head and shoulders better than what we saw last year.

[doubleblue]

The OL might not be 100% the reason for this, but it certainly is the majority I feel.

I thought adding Washington in at RG made the OLine look fairly solid. That is something I thought should have been done earlier in the season instead of wasting an import spot on Fuller and a few other WR's that didn't make a difference on offense.
We may see Edmonton again in the playoffs so hope all the walking wounded can make it back when it counts.

So what does Trestman do now. Go for broke and try and finish first, or rest Ricky and play more of the rookies the last two games. I think they have to win both games to finish first now, and that could put some key guys on the injured list before the playoffs.

[Argo57]

Outside of Calgary and Montreal, there really is a lot of parity in the CFL. I hate losing, and this type of loss is like a punch in the stomach, but it's head and shoulders better than what we saw last year.

A punch in the stomach would be preferable to what we saw last season.

[Will]

I'm frustrated because the Argos will have to beat one of these western teams to be where they ultimately want to be and have only shown on 1 occasion that they can beat a western team.

I'm frustrated because mistakes by special teams cost the Argos again with Jackson's fumble (3 pts to Edmonton) and Hajrullahu missed 2 FG's (1 point).

I'm frustrated because Ricky Ray's pocket seemingly collapses instantaneously.

[Argo57]

I'm frustrated because the Argos will have to beat one of these western teams to be where they ultimately want to be and have only shown on 1 occasion that they can beat a western team.

I'm frustrated because mistakes by special teams cost the Argos again with Jackson's fumble (3 pts to Edmonton) and Hajrullahu missed 2 FG's (1 point).

I'm frustrated because Ricky Ray's pocket seemingly collapses instantaneously.

Edmonton's interception which sealed the game was caused by a John Chick pass deflection, Tyler Holmes looked like a turnstile as Chick went by him to disrupt Ray.
Holmes started his career as a pretty solid O Lineman but has declined substantially this season.

[Shatto]

Argos played reasonably well but not well enough to win. The offense didn't make the big plays at the end of the game when it mattered and the defense couldn't stop Edmonton marching the field late in the 4th. Too many mistakes and penalties hurt.
Can anyone seriously disagree that if the QB's had switched teams, the Argos would not have won. Both are very good QB's but Ray lacks the mobility of Reilly. Ray was never a mobile QB but age and injures have made him even less so. It will be interesting to see what the team does next year at the QB position.

[AngeloV]

I disagree that they have only shown on 1 occasion that the can beat a western team. Arguably they only games against the west they were out of were the 2 Calgary games. Every other game they had a lead at some point in the 4th quarter. They just have to be able to finish it off. I believe they will in each of the last 2 games.

[AngeloV]

Argos played reasonably well but not well enough to win. The offense didn't make the big plays at the end of the game when it mattered and the defense couldn't stop Edmonton marching the field late in the 4th. Too many mistakes and penalties hurt.
Can anyone seriously disagree that if the QB's had switched teams, the Argos would not have won. Both are very good QB's but Ray lacks the mobility of Reilly. Ray was never a mobile QB but age and injures have made him even less so. It will be interesting to see what the team does next year at the QB position.

I think Ray was every bit as good as Reilley last night. If you want to point to Gable over Whitaker as the difference, I'll give you that. But IMO, you are way off base in your anology of the QB play last night, and frankly, all season.

[OV Argo]

The Argos are the 6th best team in the CFL. Although there might be trouble getting past the recently improved Hamilton squad in a (hypothetical) meaningful match. Definitely superior to the Awful Als.

To have a legitimate chance to advance, the team needs its starters healthy.

Pretty well all CFL teams have had to deal with major injury issues this sesaon, and the Esks have been hardest hit.

The Argos #1 healthy units on both offence & defence would make for a pretty solid team, but IMO that is not enough to win and it comes down to coaching smarts more than just talent on the roster.

Ray is still an accurate QB and Green & Edwards are outstanding receivers, but if that is all your offence is based on = not good enough; maybe with Wilder back in the line-up, they would stick to the ground game more, but I'm not convinced of that. Same old, predictable, bread & butter offence (mostly short pass plays to 2 receivers) does not cut it in big games or against good teams - wayyyyyy more diversity needed: balance with a run game, some deep pass plays; different/trick type plays thrown in - like a jet sweep to a fast receiver or Edwards on an option where he can pass or run; more of Declan Cross on screens or swing passes; and all receivers in the 5 pack need to contribute - not sure why Ralph is even in there if Ray and/or the offensive brain-trust have no faith in him - a slotback hardly ever targeted ??? - Coombs was a factor there, so put somebody in who will be targeted. The play-calling just needs to be way smarter and more diverse IMO.

And on D - some good talent there too, but not sure they mix things up enough or take chances with blitzes to get pressure on all-pass offences; most CFL teams feature plenty of rotation on their D-line but Chamblin must think his back-ups are useless or else the starters are supermen - but they seem to be less effective late in games. Gabriel could maybe play some more at OLB cause he is a good hitter who can help against the run that is a problem at times, but he is not a cover corner or D-half; I like Vaughn and that little guy Ford has a nose for the ball in the secondary, and Murray is a smart vet, but it would be nice to see a group play together games in a row and maybe gel as a unit. Not sure i have much faith in Chamblin to come up with smart game plans or in game adjustments when it counts.

Coaching ?

[R.J]

Pretty well all CFL teams have had to deal with major injury issues this sesaon, and the Esks have been hardest hit.

The Argos #1 healthy units on both offence & defence would make for a pretty solid team, but IMO that is not enough to win and it comes down to coaching smarts more than just talent on the roster.

Ray is still an accurate QB and Green & Edwards are outstanding receivers, but if that is all your offence is based on = not good enough; maybe with Wilder back in the line-up, they would stick to the ground game more, but I'm not convinced of that. Same old, predictable, bread & butter offence (mostly short pass plays to 2 receivers) does not cut it in big games or against good teams - wayyyyyy more diversity needed: balance with a run game, some deep pass plays; different/trick type plays thrown in - like a jet sweep to a fast receiver or Edwards on an option where he can pass or run; more of Declan Cross on screens or swing passes; and all receivers in the 5 pack need to contribute - not sure why Ralph is even in there if Ray and/or the offensive brain-trust have no faith in him - a slotback hardly ever targeted ??? - Coombs was a factor there, so put somebody in who will be targeted. The play-calling just needs to be way smarter and more diverse IMO.

And on D - some good talent there too, but not sure they mix things up enough or take chances with blitzes to get pressure on all-pass offences; most CFL teams feature plenty of rotation on their D-line but Chamblin must think his back-ups are useless or else the starters are supermen - but they seem to be less effective late in games. Gabriel could maybe play some more at OLB cause he is a good hitter who can help against the run that is a problem at times, but he is not a cover corner or D-half; I like Vaughn and that little guy Ford has a nose for the ball in the secondary, and Murray is a smart vet, but it would be nice to see a group play together games in a row and maybe gel as a unit. Not sure i have much faith in Chamblin to come up with smart game plans or in game adjustments when it counts.

Coaching ?

I think it's both coaching and talent.

Defensively I'm still shocked that the defense has played relatively well under Chamblin, but I expect for there to be a drop off next season, and I still think our secondary isn't as strong as most teams in the CFL.

Offensively, is about as expected. We still need to fix our oline (why is Woods not starting ?), and we need more top end type receivers (Green and Edwards are our only two IMO). I do agree that Trestman's offense and play calling is big part of the problem though, that shouldn't be surprising as it's the exact same system that Milanovich ran, the difference is that Trestman is a significantly better coach. In saying that, as much as I respect Trestman as a person and coach, I believe the way he handles the #2-4 QB spots will eventually bit him in the butt. Not developing a QB behind Calvillo is a massive reason as to why the Als have been struggling so much, well that and Popp loading the team with vets, which I hope Popp doesn't do here.

[Joe Barnes]

I agree with many of the observations/criticisms made by others in this thread but, considering where the team was in January, I am just enjoying the ride! I know we've lost two in a row and are 7 and 9 but this team has a really good character to it. They may play poorly for most of a game but they are never out of it. They are a scrappy bunch and enjoyable to watch. Yesterday's game was like the last win against Hamilton, where they hung around and pulled it out with clutch plays at the end, but against the Esks they just fell short. At this stage of their development, that is going to happen. But I think they are really close to being a really good team. I didn't feel this way earlier in the season but, call me crazy, there is a different energy now. The teams we will likely play are Edmonton (who we've beaten and lost by 3 points to), Saskatchewan (who we played close earlier and lost by 3 points to last week), and Ottawa (who we've beaten twice, albeit early in the season). In a one game playoff, there is no reason we can't beat any of these teams. Winning a Grey Cup is asking a bit much, but a playoff win and possible trip to the big game is not. Going forward, I am going to send this team only positive energy, as they have given me far more enjoyment than I could have asked for this year. Whatever the result, I know this group is going to have given its all.

[paulwoods13]

We have enough to get to the Grey Cup, if we can just get healthy. The backups for some of our starters are significantly less effective than the starters they are replacing. Lemon, Ball, Coombs and Wilder are significantly better than the guys who played their spots the past few weeks. Yes, other teams have also faced injuries, and maybe some of them could make a similar statement, but I don't care about other teams. I want to see what we can be when we are fully healthy. I believe we can be one of the top teams in the league, and contend -- this year -- for the Grey Cup.

[Neely2005]

We have enough to get to the Grey Cup, if we can just get healthy. The backups for some of our starters are significantly less effective than the starters they are replacing. Lemon, Ball, Coombs and Wilder are significantly better than the guys who played their spots the past few weeks. Yes, other teams have also faced injuries, and maybe some of them could make a similar statement, but I don't care about other teams. I want to see what we can be when we are fully healthy. I believe we can be one of the top teams in the league, and contend -- this year -- for the Grey Cup.

I feel the same way but would add that we've also got to keep the penalties under control too.

[1971GreyCup]

I agree that this team is well ahead of schedule based on when HC, GM and staff started this program. With veterans returning weekly and a favourable stretch run, we're in the Grey Cup this year. Last Grey Cup the Stampeders were expected to beat the Argos handily. We know how that ended. With a full off-season and draft and the Argos a Grey Cup contenders in 2018. Football Operations are in very good hands now. Like the 1982 Argos team. Talent and coaching are there, this recipe just might need the cooking time.

I get the impression that the Argos are high on QB McLeod Bethel-Thompson when the transition time has come. I didn't realize that he is another Sacramento State graduate, like Ricky Ray. At 6'4" and 230lbs, he's bigger than Tim Tebow.

[RB957]

I agree with many of the observations/criticisms made by others in this thread but, considering where the team was in January, I am just enjoying the ride! I know we've lost two in a row and are 7 and 9 but this team has a really good character to it. They may play poorly for most of a game but they are never out of it. They are a scrappy bunch and enjoyable to watch. Yesterday's game was like the last win against Hamilton, where they hung around and pulled it out with clutch plays at the end, but against the Esks they just fell short. At this stage of their development, that is going to happen. But I think they are really close to being a really good team. I didn't feel this way earlier in the season but, call me crazy, there is a different energy now. The teams we will likely play are Edmonton (who we've beaten and lost by 3 points to), Saskatchewan (who we played close earlier and lost by 3 points to last week), and Ottawa (who we've beaten twice, albeit early in the season). In a one game playoff, there is no reason we can't beat any of these teams. Winning a Grey Cup is asking a bit much, but a playoff win and possible trip to the big game is not. Going forward, I am going to send this team only positive energy, as they have given me far more enjoyment than I could have asked for this year. Whatever the result, I know this group is going to have given its all.

I'll have some of what you're having!! That is the attitude... all in.

[Antwon]

And on D - some good talent there too, but not sure they mix things up enough or take chances with blitzes to get pressure on all-pass offences; most CFL teams feature plenty of rotation on their D-line but Chamblin must think his back-ups are useless or else the starters are supermen - but they seem to be less effective late in games. Gabriel could maybe play some more at OLB cause he is a good hitter who can help against the run that is a problem at times, but he is not a cover corner or D-half; I like Vaughn and that little guy Ford has a nose for the ball in the secondary, and Murray is a smart vet, but it would be nice to see a group play together games in a row and maybe gel as a unit. Not sure i have much faith in Chamblin to come up with smart game plans or in game adjustments when it counts.
Coaching ?

I agree on the defense side. Not sold on Chamblin. The last two weeks they couldn't stop late game drives, and could not contain mobile QB's who moved out of the pocket.

[paulwoods13]

I agree on the defense side. Not sold on Chamblin. The last two weeks they couldn't stop late game drives, and could not contain mobile QB's who moved out of the pocket.

And both games were played without Ball (arguably our best and most aggressive defender) and Lemon.

[gilthethrill]

And both games were played without Ball (arguably our best and most aggressive defender) and Lemon.

I really like the job Chamblin has done, especially on short notice.

[Jon Gonzo]

Not sold on Chamblin? Is someone forgetting how bad this team was on Defense last year?

Chamblin will be a Head Coach again, and much of it will be based on what he has accomplished this season.

To me, Ray and Reilly both played a pretty good game.....but I thought Zylkstra and Gable were better than Green and Whitaker. Sometimes you have to give the other team credit.

Following the past couple of seasons and the late start that Popp and Trestman were given; I think fans should feel fortunate that we've just clinched a spot in the dance; cos in the dance, anything can happen.

And yes, this league is pretty tight.

[ArgoGabe22]

Not sold on Chamblin? Is someone is forgetting how bad this team was on Defense last year?

Chamblin will be a Head Coach again, and much of it will be based on what he has accomplished this season.

To me, Ray and Reilly both played a pretty good game.....but I thought Zylkstra and Gable were better than Green and Whitaker. Sometimes you have to give the other team credit.

Following the past couple of seasons and the late start that Popp and Trestman were given; I think fans should feel fortunate that we've just clinched a spot in the dance; cos in the dance, anything can happen.

And yes, this league is pretty tight.

Couldn't have said it better myself.