Tyler Holmes

[AngeloV]

The Argos aren't the only one's who are losing picks to the NFL. Danny Watkins and Phil Blake were both first round "futures" last year. Honestly no one thought Holmes would be an NFLer with his size and what not but it just happened and all you can do is congratulate the kid. Montreal made a gamble with Vaughn Martin in the 4th round, its great to have his rights but he will probably never play a down here. Cory Mace was drafted by WPG but for some strange reason we traded for him, now that is something I'm not happy with. We basically gave ABIII away for nothing. Gore and Lee were both players getting NFL interest yet the Lions still gambled on them. I personally don't like going for futures but you're making it seem the Argos are the only one's doing it.

I agree with Jim Popp, the CFL draft should only include Seniors who are ready to play right away. Players still may sign down south but at least they have a better sense of who.

Exactly the points I was trying to make. I'm really getting tired of the "the sky is falling" mentality of a few on here.

[RoRoYoBoat]

The Argos aren't the only one's who are losing picks to the NFL. Danny Watkins and Phil Blake were both first round "futures" last year. Honestly no one thought Holmes would be an NFLer with his size and what not but it just happened and all you can do is congratulate the kid. Montreal made a gamble with Vaughn Martin in the 4th round, its great to have his rights but he will probably never play a down here. Cory Mace was drafted by WPG but for some strange reason we traded for him, now that is something I'm not happy with. We basically gave ABIII away for nothing. Gore and Lee were both players getting NFL interest yet the Lions still gambled on them. I personally don't like going for futures but you're making it seem the Argos are the only one's doing it.

I agree with Jim Popp, the CFL draft should only include Seniors who are ready to play right away. Players still may sign down south but at least they have a better sense of who.

Phil Blake was not a first round pick. He was the last pick of the third round and the Als third pick "flyer"...

[paulwoods13]

Paul, your inner Brunt is showing.

Thanks, that is a big compliment!

NFL teams spend millions of dollars on scouting and player development, and still almost half of the 1st-round picks in the NFL draft turn out to be stiffs. Sure, it's easy for them to take an Andrew Luck or a Trent Richardson, who are clearly way, way better than anyone coming into the CFL. But beyond the obvious elite talents, player evaluation is and always will be a crapshoot.

Agreed, and the exact same thing applies here. For every high draft pick who spurned the CFL for the NFL, I could find you at least one (and probably more) high draft pick who simply failed to pan out, period. All of us experts who come on these boards and pronounce on the success or failure of a particular team's draft should go to sleep for at least three years, then take another shot.

So what they do then is rely on the measurables. When a player scores exceptionally high at the combine, as I understand Greenwood did, then that player has to be considered a possible NFL prospect. The NFL took Reinders because he runs exceptionally well for such a big guy. But they had absolutely no idea if he could actually play the game or not.

So to answer your question, a better drafting strategy would be to identify great Canadian football players who don't have the exceptional measurables to make it onto the NFL radar. A guy can be good enough but not big enough for the NFL. Secondly the team should concentrate more on drafting CIS players. Third, if there's a guy with exceptional ability and character who openly states he wants to play in the CFL, then you bloody well take him if you have the chance.

Sounds logical, and on some levels it appears to make sense. But quite a few guys have good measurables. Should they all then be left until the fourth or fifth rounds while demonstrably inferior players are drafted? How would drafting more CIS players help? Greenwood played CIS. So did Giguere. So did other players who have passed on the CFL for the NFL. And the vast majority of the NCAA guys who get drafted do not sign with an NFL club. There's simply no logical connection that I can see between the system a guy plays in and the likelihood he will want to sign with, or be signed by, an NFL club. (Unless you are suggesting CIS athletes are inherently of less interest to NFL teams, which I doubt you are.) And finally, I don't believe there are any players "with exceptional ability and character" who truly want to play only in the CFL. I do not have any evidence to prove this, but I believe it. Maybe there have been some highly regarded players in recent years who said publicly that they had no interest in the NFL, and actually meant it. But I would bet that every single guy who goes into the draft hopes, at least privately, that he will be signed by an NFL team, if for no other reason than to have a shot at greater pay and to be tested against what would generally be considered (by football players, not necesssarily by CFL fans) as the highest level of competition.

BTW, those who are claiming that Reinders was a wasted pick -- he was taken, as I recall, in the fifth or sixth rounds. If he was drafted first or second, a case could be made that the pick was wasted (although it's been only two years since since his draft, so still too early to really judge). But near the end of the draft, it does not hurt to take a flyer on a guy who clearly has NFL aspirations but seems a good bet to end up in the CFL. Even some of those who have a different perspective on the draft than I do seem to agree that there's no harm in taking a longshot in later rounds.

[gilthethrill]

Kaczur was a terrible pick. Greenwood was not as Barker would have had to have psychic abilities to know that a KC player would be injured which was the only way that Greenwood would be in the NFL. If that player were not injured, Greenwood would likely be an Argo starter in 2012 and everyone would be hailing Barker as making a genius pick.

Dan Fiederkell is another 1st round Argo pick out of the CIS that had unexpected success in the NFL prior to retiring.

[OV Argo]

Kaczur was a terrible pick. Greenwood was not as Barker would have had to have psychic abilities to know that a KC player would be injured which was the only way that Greenwood would be in the NFL. If that player were not injured, Greenwood would likely be an Argo starter in 2012 and everyone would be hailing Barker as making a genius pick.

Really Ravi? - Greenwood would be a starter for the Argos this season - at MLB i guess? - could well be i suppose - seems like a pretty talented player; but i wouldn't bet that he is a sure fire starter for Barker/Millanovich and a Jones defence; could also be he would get low-balled with a contract offer and have to make his mark mostly on special teams to begin with. Be interesting to see though - maybe by next season when some are pretty sure he will show-up for the Argos. Tyler Holmes going to be a starting OT if he shows up for the Argos this season? Eppelle pretty well a sure bet to be a starter this year? I'll bet 2011 18th overall pick Kouame is right up there in the running to compete at receiver this year too? Is 2009 Argos 10th overall pick Matt Lambros coming to TC to compete at receiver too? = could be a real battle between Kouame, Lambros, Steven Turner and this year's pick Hurst in the receiving corps. ;0)

[KCargosfan]

Laughs the guy who had no clue who Feoli-Godino was. A real expert on the goings on of College ball in Canada.

Says the guy who said the Chiefs have big plans for Greenwood. You're a real expert on the Chiefs, right?

Where's this quote from Popp about Greenwood?

My knowledge of Feoli-Godino or the CIS has nothing to do with you making silly statements about Greenwood and the Chiefs. I've never claimed to be a CIS or CFL expert, but I am pretty certain I know more about what's going on with the Chiefs and its roster more than anyone else on this board.

[ArgoRavi]

Really Ravi? - Greenwood would be a starter for the Argos this season - at MLB i guess? - could well be i suppose - seems like a pretty talented player; but i wouldn't bet that he is a sure fire starter for Barker/Millanovich and a Jones defence; could also be he would get low-balled with a contract offer and have to make his mark mostly on special teams to begin with. Be interesting to see though - maybe by next season when some are pretty sure he will show-up for the Argos. Tyler Holmes going to be a starting OT if he shows up for the Argos this season? Eppelle pretty well a sure bet to be a starter this year? I'll bet 2011 18th overall pick Kouame is right up there in the running to compete at receiver this year too? Is 2009 Argos 10th overall pick Matt Lambros coming to TC to compete at receiver too? = could be a real battle between Kouame, Lambros, Steven Turner and this year's pick Hurst in the receiving corps. ;0)

I am not saying that Greenwood would have walked in and been a starter this year. If he had been around in Toronto for two years already playing on special teams and getting some occasional time on defence, he would have had a good chance of starting this year. BTW, Eppele is likely to be a starter on the offensive line this year as he was during the second half of last season.

[argolio]

I've never claimed to be a CIS or CFL expert, but I am pretty certain I know more about what's going on with the Chiefs and its roster more than anyone else on this board.

Is Steve Fuller making a comeback this year?


From the their team site:

Inside Linebacker (4) – Jovan Belcher isn’t part of this list, yet. Pencil him in for a return alongside Derrick Johnson since he’s only a restricted free agent.

Outside of Johnson and Belcher, the Chiefs have room for addition. Brandon Siler could be a capable backup to both inside positions and possibly even push Belcher for a starting job, but is coming off a torn Achilles. Cory Greenwood makes his mark on special teams and Caleb Campbell was on the practice squad last season.

Free agent addition or draft pick? There’s an argument for either. The Chiefs have yet to draft an inside linebacker under Pioli’s watch.

What I'm getting from this pre-camp analysis is that the writer believes Greenwood is more likely to stay in the same role rather than move up or down.

[RoRoYoBoat]

Says the guy who said the Chiefs have big plans for Greenwood. You're a real expert on the Chiefs, right?

Where's this quote from Popp about Greenwood?

My knowledge of Feoli-Godino or the CIS has nothing to do with you making silly statements about Greenwood and the Chiefs. I've never claimed to be a CIS or CFL expert, but I am pretty certain I know more about what's going on with the Chiefs and its roster more than anyone else on this board.

Please don't try and spin this around or make stuff up. Never said they had "grand plans" They gave him a new contract which says something and Greenwood was on TSN radio (the interview is on Itunes) and he did not sound like a player on the bubble at all. Your making an educated guess that he will be of no interest to any NFL squad and released before he becomes eligible for an NFL pension and that's your opinion does not make it so. You may be a Chief's fan but the NFL does not end with the Chiefs. He may join the Argos at some point but there are no guarantees. He could also be injured and end his career prematurely and never suit up for the Argos.

As for a quote from Popp I heard it with my own ears and I don't walk around with the voice recorder on my android on all the time. Popp's record in the CFL is tops in the CFL and most consider him on of the top two GM ever to work in this league. Others on here have confirmed to you that there was a lot of NFL scouts following Greenwood's progress at Concordia. We won't even get into the fact that even if Greenwood came to the CFL he would have to be offered a two year contract option.

As for the draft record of the Argos. It is brutal and it isn't a Jim Barker thing, it goes way back. Look at what Tillman has built for talent on his oline in Edmonton in just two years. The CFL has a very specific path to building a championship roster. I'd say 80 to 90 percent of Grey Cup winners in the last 10 to 20 years have had dominant all Canadian offensive line.

[paulwoods13]

Never said they had "grand plans" They gave him a new contract which says something and Greenwood was on TSN radio (the interview is on Itunes) and he did not sound like a player on the bubble at all.

He was a solid contributor on special teams the last two seasons -- it would have been news if they hadn't given him a new contract. As has been pointed out, that contract is pretty well the minimum for a third-year player, which is about what any undrafted special teams guy would get in his third year. He may not feel he's on the bubble, but does any athlete ever feel he is? In fact, he probably isn't on the bubble this year, given that every team needs good ST guys and the Chiefs do not appear to have a lot of depth at LB. But will he still be kept around for a fourth year? If he's still playing special teams only and is making fourth-year money, I'm suggesting there's a decent chance he will be let go and replaced by a younger, cheaper player who can do those things. It would be great for him (and for the CIS) if he were to stay long-term, but I'd say chances are no better than 50-50 he plays four full years with the Chiefs.

[OV Argo]

He was a solid contributor on special teams the last two seasons -- it would have been news if they hadn't given him a new contract. As has been pointed out, that contract is pretty well the minimum for a third-year player, which is about what any undrafted special teams guy would get in his third year. He may not feel he's on the bubble, but does any athlete ever feel he is? In fact, he probably isn't on the bubble this year, given that every team needs good ST guys and the Chiefs do not appear to have a lot of depth at LB. But will he still be kept around for a fourth year? If he's still playing special teams only and is making fourth-year money, I'm suggesting there's a decent chance he will be let go and replaced by a younger, cheaper player who can do those things. It would be great for him (and for the CIS) if he were to stay long-term, but I'd say chances are no better than 50-50 he plays four full years with the Chiefs.

IF - Grennwood is considered an excellent special teamer AND a pretty good LB who could play there - at least as a very capable back-up, I`d opine the chances of him sticking in KC are a lot better than 50-50; i doubt they cut a guy just because he is in line for `4th year money`, unless they draft or sign some superb new LB prospects; some guys have made good, long NFL careers out of being top special teamers anyways - including former CFLers like JP Darche or Bennie Thompson (both of whom played for the Chiefs in question at one time).

[paulwoods13]

IF - Grennwood is considered an excellent special teamer AND a pretty good LB who could play there - at least as a very capable back-up, I`d opine the chances of him sticking in KC are a lot better than 50-50; i doubt they cut a guy just because he is in line for `4th year money`, unless they draft or sign some superb new LB prospects; some guys have made good, long NFL careers out of being top special teamers anyways - including former CFLers like JP Darche or Bennie Thompson (both of whom played for the Chiefs in question at one time).

We'll find out who's right within the next 16 months. If he's still with the Chiefs in September 2013, he will have made it to his fourth year in the NFL. Until then (or sooner if he happens to get cut sooner), we're all left with our opinions about whether or not he will survive that long, and no one can be certain of what's going to happen.

Darche was a much different situation, IMO, because he played a harder-to-fill specialty role as a long snapper. There are probably dozens of linebackers who can cover kicks in the NFL for every player who can successfully snap the ball to the punter or kicker. I have no info about Thompson's career as a special teamer in the NFL but I don't doubt that he played there for quite for a while.

[ArgoRavi]

i doubt they cut a guy just because he is in line for `4th year money`, unless they draft or sign some superb new LB prospects

This happens a lot every year in the NFL as fourth year players are due sizable raises. If they aren't considered to be guys that are likely to be starting at that point, they will be let go and replaced by younger players and many of these fourth year players end up in the CFL. Perhaps Greenwood will be kept because he is one of the best special team players in the league or perhaps he will be starting material by his fourth year but if he isn't either of those things, don't be surprised to see him in Toronto in 2013 or 2014.

[OV Argo]

This happens a lot every year in the NFL as fourth year players are due sizable raises. If they aren't considered to be guys that are likely to be starting at that point, they will be let go and replaced by younger players and many of these fourth year players end up in the CFL. Perhaps Greenwood will be kept because he is one of the best special team players in the league or perhaps he will be starting material by his fourth year but if he isn't either of those things, don't be surprised to see him in Toronto in 2013 or 2014.

The sizeable raise you're referring to is chump change in the NFL; if a team likes a guy enough, he will be kept around, and won't get cut for the sake of saving a few NFL bucks; huge contract, over the hill / oft injured types is another matter - Greenwood ain't one of those.

[Rich]

Sounds logical, and on some levels it appears to make sense. But quite a few guys have good measurables. Should they all then be left until the fourth or fifth rounds while demonstrably inferior players are drafted? How would drafting more CIS players help? Greenwood played CIS. So did Giguere. So did other players who have passed on the CFL for the NFL. And the vast majority of the NCAA guys who get drafted do not sign with an NFL club. There's simply no logical connection that I can see between the system a guy plays in and the likelihood he will want to sign with, or be signed by, an NFL club. (Unless you are suggesting CIS athletes are inherently of less interest to NFL teams, which I doubt you are.) And finally, I don't believe there are any players "with exceptional ability and character" who truly want to play only in the CFL. I do not have any evidence to prove this, but I believe it. Maybe there have been some highly regarded players in recent years who said publicly that they had no interest in the NFL, and actually meant it. But I would bet that every single guy who goes into the draft hopes, at least privately, that he will be signed by an NFL team, if for no other reason than to have a shot at greater pay and to be tested against what would generally be considered (by football players, not necesssarily by CFL fans) as the highest level of competition.

I completely agree that 99% of all Canadian players would go to the NFL if given the opportunity. But that doesn't necessarily mean that those who do go south are better players than those who remain here. High measurables do not necessarily make a player "demonstrably superior" to others. Giguere's time in the 40 was off the charts, but after 3 years in the Show, we still have no idea if this guy can play WR at the professional level. Who would you rather have in your lineup, NFL vet Giguere or a guy who was rejected by the NFL, Andy Fantuz?

As for a player who would choose to play in the CFL over the NFL, you would have to call these Pinball Exceptions. You could make a case to a guy that his long-term and business prospects are better served if he stays in Canada. This was certainly the case with Shomari Williams, who ironically has a business training young Canadian high-school football players how to get into US colleges. He stated openly before the draft that he wanted to stay in Canada because of his business, but unfortunately the Argonauts passed on the lead-pipe certain sure thing.

Pinball himself has certainly made the case to many American players that their long-term prospects are better in Canada. Cory Boyd is without question good enough for NFL rosters and has undoubtedly turned down offers to go there, because he bought into Pinball's philosophy. There are others too -- but the vast majority, as you say, would head south in a heartbeat.

[1argoholic]

The biggest thing about heading south is the money to be made. I remember we lost that long snapper to Seattle in 97 I believe. His bro played for the Canadians. He was making 500 thou US a year to just long snap. Drawing a blank as to his name. French Canadian guy.

[Treblecharger1]

I think it was J.P. Darche ( Think the spelling is wrong on that) Damn good long snapper! John Rapso was another excellent long snapper but pretty sure he ended up in the police force.

[KCargosfan]

Is Steve Fuller making a comeback this year?


From the their team site:
What I'm getting from this pre-camp analysis is that the writer believes Greenwood is more likely to stay in the same role rather than move up or down.

Haha, I hope not on Fuller.

I agree with your take. I expect Greenwood to play nearly every special teams play this season and play little to no snaps on defense like last year.

Please don't try and spin this around or make stuff up. Never said they had "grand plans" They gave him a new contract which says something and Greenwood was on TSN radio (the interview is on Itunes) and he did not sound like a player on the bubble at all. Your making an educated guess that he will be of no interest to any NFL squad and released before he becomes eligible for an NFL pension and that's your opinion does not make it so. You may be a Chief's fan but the NFL does not end with the Chiefs. He may join the Argos at some point but there are no guarantees. He could also be injured and end his career prematurely and never suit up for the Argos.

As for a quote from Popp I heard it with my own ears and I don't walk around with the voice recorder on my android on all the time. Popp's record in the CFL is tops in the CFL and most consider him on of the top two GM ever to work in this league. Others on here have confirmed to you that there was a lot of NFL scouts following Greenwood's progress at Concordia. We won't even get into the fact that even if Greenwood came to the CFL he would have to be offered a two year contract option.

On page 4 you said "They have plans for him and even if KC cut him he would find another job in the NFL with how he's progressed so far."

They gave him a league minimum contract for his service time -- big whoop. And for the second time I'll ask you, what progression are you referring to?

As to him being on radio -- who cares? Do you expect him to say, "If I make the team again..."

Greenwood will be one of the last 8 guys to make the active roster if he does so, but he is on the bubble.

You're also making an educated guess that he would be of interest if he were cut.

And where did I mention anything about pension-eligibility? My point is you aren't going to keep 4th and 5th year guys around just for special teams.

I doubt Popp ever said that, but whatever.

Others here have confirmed to you that Greenwood never would have gotten a shot in the NFL unless the Chiefs had a LB get injured in OTAs.

Greenwood signed on May 18, 2010. If he was such a hot NFL commodity, why didn't some other team sign him sooner and why did it take an injury for the Chiefs to bring him in?