Tyler Holmes

[1argoholic]

Or Newfoundland as per your other post. haha.

[paulwoods13]

Time to start drafting guys who want to play in the CFL. You can't start the old airlift BS in Sept.

But argoholic, there is not a single draft-eligible Canadian player who would not pick the NFL over the CFL if given a choice. It's a simple matter of dollars available (even practice roster guys make more than a rookie would make in the CFL) and the prestige of competing in North America's richest and most powerful league. If we limit our choices to guys who don't want to go to the NFL, we won't be able to pick anyone. If we limit it to guys who definitely aren't good enough to go to the NFL, we'll be cutting off our nose to spite our face because many of the guys who go down there eventually return to Canada. Remember -- the Argos waited four full years to get Chris Schultz. I'd say it was worth drafting him and waiting for him.

[RoRoYoBoat]

You can't trade half your pick and have the other half be no show. If your trading than you better make sure the rest of your picks pan out.

[Wobbler]

If we limit our choices to guys who don't want to go to the NFL, we won't be able to pick anyone. If we limit it to guys who definitely aren't good enough to go to the NFL, we'll be cutting off our nose to spite our face because many of the guys who go down there eventually return to Canada.

Indeed. There's no harm in having players show up several years after being drafted, provided that there is a (more-or-less) continuous flow of players arriving. Always focusing on players who will be immediately available is a path to mediocrity.

The only frustration with Holmes is that he'll be playing "out of position" as far as we're concerned. If he ends up spending a substantial amount of time in the NFL as a guard he'll have to re-learn the tackle position when he shows up.

[gilthethrill]

As much as I hate having "futures" picks try the NFL first, Barker could draft CIS/NCCA guys in the 1st round who are not 1st round material just to have a body come to camp. Then Barker would be labelled a failure if that overvalued pick did not pan out. Either way, CFL GM's are not in a favourable position when it comes to draft day.

I say with the NFL added 10 more "Cannonfodder" spots for training camps, it will have a negative effect on the Canadian content & it is only going to get worse.

[RoRoYoBoat]

I think Jim Popp's idea is to stop drafting NCAA Juniors is bang on. First off the big Div 1 schools don't appreciate it and it would they would be able to have a better sense of who they are drafting. Won't even mention the injury risk with these guys having an entire season of college ball left to play.

It is only going to get worse as the Canadian kids get better.

As much as I hate having "futures" picks try the NFL first, Barker could draft CIS/NCCA guys in the 1st round who are not 1st round material just to have a body come to camp. Then Barker would be labelled a failure if that overvalued pick did not pan out. Either way, CFL GM's are not in a favourable position when it comes to draft day.

I say with the NFL added 10 more "Cannonfodder" spots for training camps, it will have a negative effect on the Canadian content & it is only going to get worse.

Everyone in the Q knew Corey Greenwood was going to the NFL. He'd been scouted constantly for two years by three teams. You got to do your homework.

[OV Argo]

CFL teams have somehow managed to ignore or over-look plenty of good draftable players over the years; often in favor of reach, questionable or perhaps laughable draft picks instead.

The Argos could have drafted Kyle Koch - a top CIS all-star O-Lineman - a few years ago; he ended up signing as a FA with the Bombers and has now moved on to the Esks where he is IMO a solid if not top CFL OG; the Argos passed on Matt Norman - a similiarly recognized top CIS OG - in favor of a "project" like Laing, who has another year of NCAA ball left, and has thus far been a back-up mostly there. If somebody can provide some solid evidence of how drafting anybody with a pulse who is on an NCCA program (guys who were not proven starters there), has paid off with these guys becoming top notch starters down the road in the CFL - i'd love to hear that list. Meanwhile - i believe i could provide a decent list of proven CIS players - guys who were repeat CIS all-stars there with top stats / play-making ability shown - who have panned out quite well in the CFL - including players like Koch, Rob Bagg or Burk Dales, who were not drafted at all by the CFL "experts" ???

CIS star QBs Quinlan, Greene and Graves not picked at all this recent draft - no surprise there really; nor were other top CIS all-star/ stat leader types like Seb Levesque, Dylan Hollohan, Mike Van Praaet, Brescacin, Mederios, at other positions for example; meanwhile - some of the other draft picks = what are some of these CFL "scouts" going by ???

And drafting top players who are a good bet to get an NFL shot continues to be risky business - worth a shot perhaps with later round picks (the Argos once drafted Tim Biakabutuka in the later rounds) - but using first round picks on Kaczur or even Greenwood (and yep RoRo, i heard about the NFL interest in Greenwood, plus he put up a suprerb set on testing #s at the CFL E-Camp that would draw some NFL attention) = very questionable drafting strategy IMO. Perhaps the Argos should think of employing some different drafting strategy in the future - be nice to get a Fantuz or Cory Watson, or Labatte or Kyle Koch or Foley or Craig Butler type via the draft. But if your thinking is top, proven CIS players are just TC fodder type, then why bother i guess?

[Rich]

Indeed. There's no harm in having players show up several years after being drafted

How often has this happened to the Argos, though? Chris Schultz, has been mentioned, does O'Shea falls in this category?, Glen Young perhaps -- but I can't think of too many Argos who have shown up several years after being drafted.

Always focusing on players who will be immediately available is a path to mediocrity.

The wise GM knows when to roll the dice and when not to. Last year with the #1 pick, Barker had a sure thing in his pocket, an exceptional athlete who was a virtual certainty to stay in the CFL because he was setting up some businesses in Canada. Instead, Barker got greedy and decided to roll the dice on a guy he should have known was getting some looks down south. And wouldn't Shomari Williams look good in double Blue right now, a nice 1-2 thing he could do with Ricky Foley. Sometimes, Mr. Barker, the safe pick is the right one.

[KCargosfan]

Everyone in the Q knew Corey Greenwood was going to the NFL. He'd been scouted constantly for two years by three teams. You got to do your homework.

And you think Barker didn't? If the Chiefs didn't have an injury at mini-camp to one of their LBs, Greenwood never would have got an invite. If we didn't take Greenwood, BC would have. When Greenwood arrives in 2013 or '14, it will have been worth it.

[Invader]

But argoholic, there is not a single draft-eligible Canadian player who would not pick the NFL over the CFL if given a choice. It's a simple matter of dollars available

Where's your proof? I doubt you've personally talked to every draft-eligible player to gauge their intentions. There are American players who've turned down NFL offers which included a $90,000 signing bonus, like Khalif Mitchell this year, who chose to stay in the CFL because he doesn't care about the NFL money...and Chad Owens last year who turned down an NFL offer with signing bonus to stay with the Argos.

Since there are American players who chose the CFL over the NFL, there are likely Canadian players who'd prefer to play in Canada for a variety or reasons, regardless of NFL riches.

So your blanket statement downgrading the CFL is false.

[paulwoods13]

To each his own, Invader. If you can find me a single Cdn player just starting his pro career who turned down an invitation to an NFL camp, I'll take notice. Basing your argument on Americans who have already played in the pros and decided they'd rather take sure money and playing time in Cda over being possible TC fodder down south is not gonna convince me. And I don't for a second believe that my post "downgraded" the CFL.

[RoRoYoBoat]

And you think Barker didn't? If the Chiefs didn't have an injury at mini-camp to one of their LBs, Greenwood never would have got an invite. If we didn't take Greenwood, BC would have. When Greenwood arrives in 2013 or '14, it will have been worth it.

Your dreaming. He just signed a four year deal worth close to 3 million dollars.

[paulwoods13]

Your dreaming. He just signed a four year deal worth close to 3 million dollars.

For the record, he's scheduled to make $540k this year, with annual increases and a final salary of $745,000 in 2015. Total value four years, $2.75M. Of course NFL contracts are not guaranteed. If he does not advance to a starting LB position by 2013, will the Chiefs want to pay him $650k or so to play special teams? It would not be unreasonable to assume they might prefer to use a low draft pick or unsigned free agent at a lower salary for such a role. If he continues to be a special teams demon, he might be able to stick even at a fairly high price. And maybe he will eventually become a starter, but typically that has to happen by Year 3, and certainly Year 4, if it is ever going to happen.

[RoRoYoBoat]

For the record, he's scheduled to make $540k this year, with annual increases and a final salary of $745,000 in 2015. Total value four years, $2.75M. Of course NFL contracts are not guaranteed. If he does not advance to a starting LB position by 2013, will the Chiefs want to pay him $650k or so to play special teams? It would not be unreasonable to assume they might prefer to use a low draft pick or unsigned free agent at a lower salary for such a role. If he continues to be a special teams demon, he might be able to stick even at a fairly high price. And maybe he will eventually become a starter, but typically that has to happen by Year 3, and certainly Year 4, if it is ever going to happen.

He got a four year deal at close to 3 million. They have plans for him and even if KC cut him he would find another job in the NFL with how he's progressed so far. To think he will be in Toronto is 2013 is not realistic.

[ArgoRavi]

He got a four year deal at close to 3 million. They have plans for him and even if KC cut him he would find another job in the NFL with how he's progressed so far. To think he will be in Toronto is 2013 is not realistic.

Doesn't that contract amount to the minimum amount that KC would have to give him if he sticks for four more years? I agree with Paul and KCargosfan that Greenwood could potentially end up like many NFLers in that if he doesn't progress to a starting position by Year 4, he will be looking for work up here instead.

[RoRoYoBoat]

I understand why they use the four year but I don't think tha applies in the same way to guys like Greenwood, Martin and the likes Because there is way more growth potential in guys like that than your typical player coming through the NCAA.

[paulwoods13]

I remain convinced that if he is not a starting LB by next year at the latest, he will be up against the reality that a guy who is three-four years younger and $200-300k cheaper can be brought in to play special teams and back up at LB. That's not a knock on Greenwood -- he has done extremely well to date and deserves to remain on the Chiefs roster at this point. But I don't believe he is in a different category than any other non-starter in the NFL -- he can easily be replaced by a younger, cheaper player. It happens all the time in football to backups/special team players. The contract the Chiefs gave him is not somehow indicative of special plans for him, IMO. It's not that big a contract bny NFL standards, and of course it is not guaranteed.

[KCargosfan]

He got a four year deal at close to 3 million. They have plans for him and even if KC cut him he would find another job in the NFL with how he's progressed so far. To think he will be in Toronto is 2013 is not realistic.

Are you Greenwood's brother or something? 4 years for $2.75 million means nothing in the NFL. His base this year is $540K, the minimum for a third year player, and his signing bonus was a whopping $25K. Wow, he must be important.

What progression are you looking at? In 32 games he's made 24 tackles and never gets in on defense except when the game is a blowout. Or maybe you're watching different Chiefs games than I am?

That's a nice dream you have of that when he gets cut by the Chiefs, he would immediately be picked up by another team. Again, based on what? If the Chiefs have big plans for him, I'd like to know, because that means our LB corps is pretty questionable.

I remain convinced that if he is not a starting LB by next year at the latest, he will be up against the reality that a guy who is three-four years younger and $200-300k cheaper can be brought in to play special teams and back up at LB. That's not a knock on Greenwood -- he has done extremely well to date and deserves to remain on the Chiefs roster at this point. But I don't believe he is in a different category than any other non-starter in the NFL -- he can easily be replaced by a younger, cheaper player. It happens all the time in football to backups/special team players. The contract the Chiefs gave him is not somehow indicative of special plans for him, IMO. It's not that big a contract bny NFL standards, and of course it is not guaranteed.

Bingo pw13.

[RoRoYoBoat]

We all know he's a backup and ST player like 2/3 of the team, he still hit the field as a pure rookie right out of the CIS. and he's making 105 000.00 plus is 35k that's 140k more this year than minimum btw.So KC is getting pretty good value.

No, we are not related.

[KCargosfan]

We all know he's a backup and ST player like 2/3 of the team, he still hit the field as a pure rookie right out of the CIS. and he's making 105 000.00 plus is 35k that's 140k more this year than minimum btw.So KC is getting pretty good value.

No, we are not related.

I'm the first guy who wants Greenwood to be the next Derrick Johnson, I just haven't seen anything to make me believe he will be.

League minimum for 3rd year NFL players is $540K, so he is making the minimum for his service time:
http://www.steelersdepot.com/2011/07...base-salaries/

Greenwood's complete salary package is $566,250:
http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/kansas-ci...ory-greenwood/

His salary cap hit makes him the 40th-highest paid player on the team.

And the Chiefs signed another linebacker today in former Brown/Cowboy Leon Williams:
http://www.kcchiefs.com/news/article...2-eee314760f54