Tyler Holmes

[OV Argo]

Much as I'd love to see it - I'll bet Greenwood never shows-up for the Argos. And while there are a number of Canadian players who have come to the CFL after being in the NFL for awhile or even a bit, there is a much lengthier list of guys who did not. Schultz played when NFL money was not near what it is now. There are a number of reasons such guys may never report to the CFL: they made good coin down there so are financially set; they got injured badly or even nicked enough to want to give-up football; or, maybe they don't have much respect for the CFL - due to ego/CFL image or lower pay, or the 2nd class treatment (arguably of course) given to Canadian players in this "radical" league.

Funny, I don't see Nick Kazcur or Dan Federkeil suiting up for the Argos this TC; nor Clifton Dawson; did JP Darche want to come back to the CFL? Tim Biakabtuka ever show up?; Mark Montreuil? - did or have the Argos seriously persued such players after they were done in the NFL? (and Glenn Young was drafted by the Ticats; O'Shea was already an established CFL star who signed as a FA with the Argos after a try-out in Detroit).

We'll see how Greenwood does or if he progresses with the Chiefs; i think they consider him a good special-teamer and maybe a guy who could play some LB there ; don't count on him getting cut just because he is making a bit more than NFL minimum after a few years - nice theory on paper though.

[paulwoods13]

Much as I'd love to see it - I'll bet Greenwood never shows-up for the Argos. And while there are a number of Canadian players who have come to the CFL after being in the NFL for awhile or even a bit, there is a much lengthier list of guys who did not. Schultz played when NFL money was not near what it is now. There are a number of reasons such guys may never report to the CFL: they made good coin down there so are financially set; they got injured badly or even nicked enough to want to give-up football; or, maybe they don't have much respect for the CFL - due to ego/CFL image or lower pay, or the 2nd class treatment (arguably of course) given to Canadian players in this "radical" league.

Funny, I don't see Nick Kazcur or Dan Federkeil suiting up for the Argos this TC; nor Clifton Dawson; did JP Darche want to come back to the CFL? Tim Biakabtuka ever show up?; Mark Montreuil? - did or have the Argos seriously persued such players after they were done in the NFL? (and Glenn Young was drafted by the Ticats; O'Shea was already an established CFL star who signed as a FA with the Argos after a try-out in Detroit).

We'll see how Greenwood does or if he progresses with the Chiefs; i think they consider him a good special-teamer and maybe a guy who could play some LB there ; don't count on him getting cut just because he is making a bit more than NFL minimum after a few years - nice theory on paper though.

I agree with your basic premise, that it is less likely now than it was 15-20 yrs ago that Canadians who have played for any length of time in the NFL will sign in the CFL. The salary they can earn in three or four years down there, even on the PR, can make them unlikely to accept the kind of money they would get in Cda. But some of the examples you cite are a stretch. Kazcur made tons of money as a long-term starter, and was beaten up by the end of his time in NE. Federkeil (as has been reported many times) suffered an injury that meant his health would be jeopardized if he kept playing. Dawson is an Ivy League grad who probably had/has the ability to earn way more money in business than he ever could in the CFL. Darche played so many years in the NFL (nine) that he probably doesn't need to work, period. Same with Biakabatuka (six years). Montreuil is the one guy on your list who I thought probably would come back to the CFL; who knows why he didn't.

[RoRoYoBoat]

The longer he plays in the NFL. The least likely he is to play in the CFL for all the reasons mentioned above. However he was interviewed on TSN radio a few months back and he did not sound like he had any contempt or negative feelings towards the CFL.

[Rich]

Let me get this straight: people talk optimistically about Greenwood's possible return, when in fact not a single Argo draftee under similar circumstances has returned to the Argos in over 20 years. And yet very few here are prepared to blame a flawed draft strategy involving picking high-risk players in round one instead of safe picks who are much more likely to stay in Canada. I don't get it.

[KCargosfan]

Much as I'd love to see it - I'll bet Greenwood never shows-up for the Argos. And while there are a number of Canadian players who have come to the CFL after being in the NFL for awhile or even a bit, there is a much lengthier list of guys who did not. Schultz played when NFL money was not near what it is now. There are a number of reasons such guys may never report to the CFL: they made good coin down there so are financially set; they got injured badly or even nicked enough to want to give-up football; or, maybe they don't have much respect for the CFL - due to ego/CFL image or lower pay, or the 2nd class treatment (arguably of course) given to Canadian players in this "radical" league.

Funny, I don't see Nick Kazcur or Dan Federkeil suiting up for the Argos this TC; nor Clifton Dawson; did JP Darche want to come back to the CFL? Tim Biakabtuka ever show up?; Mark Montreuil? - did or have the Argos seriously persued such players after they were done in the NFL? (and Glenn Young was drafted by the Ticats; O'Shea was already an established CFL star who signed as a FA with the Argos after a try-out in Detroit).

We'll see how Greenwood does or if he progresses with the Chiefs; i think they consider him a good special-teamer and maybe a guy who could play some LB there ; don't count on him getting cut just because he is making a bit more than NFL minimum after a few years - nice theory on paper though.

I will take your bet. I'm not wealthy, so sometime next summer, if we both want to send money, such as $50-$100 to a trustworthy poster on here such as pw13 or AngeloV or argolio or a moderator, let me know.

Kaczur likely made close to $10 million in the NFL over 5 years including playoff money and bonuses. He was also a 3rd round NFL draft pick and received a 6-figure signing bonus.
Federkeil -- injuries.
Darche as pw13 said, 9 seasons in the NFL = lots of money, he was also a specialist.
Biakabutuka was the No. 8 pick in the '96 NFL draft and received millions in signing bonus money alone. He then played 5 years in the NFL at 1st round draft pick money contract.

Greenwood was not drafted and his signing bonus in '10, if there even was one, would have been 20K or less. He is not a specialist, therefore I don't see many comparisons to anyone above other than he is Canadian.

In 3 years in the NFL, he will have made roughly $1.2 million gross. If he isn't back with KC for '13 or '14, it's not like he'll have made the money the above 3 guys did. So if the option is to get a real job or play in the CFL for $100K+ a year, I would guess he'd take the latter. I think of Greenwood as more similar to Sam Giguere than any of the guys you mentioned.

Greenwood is literally one of the last 8 guys on Kansas City's 53-man roster. All of the above is why I think there is a pretty good shot we see him in '13 or '14.

[Wobbler]

Rich:

For one thing, you are talking about a pretty short list. How many first round draft picks have the Argos permanently lost to the NFL in the past 20 years? We had 17 first round picks in that time, and permanently lost two of them (Kaczur and Federkeil) to the NFL. That doesn't seem like a meaningful statistic.

[ArgoRavi]

Let me get this straight: people talk optimistically about Greenwood's possible return, when in fact not a single Argo draftee under similar circumstances has returned to the Argos in over 20 years. And yet very few here are prepared to blame a flawed draft strategy involving picking high-risk players in round one instead of safe picks who are much more likely to stay in Canada. I don't get it.

Greenwood was not a high-risk pick. The prime period for undrafted free agent signings had passed by the time that the Argos drafted him. It was seen to be very unlikely that Greenwood would be NFL-bound by that point and even Greenwood himself did not expect to be signed by an NFL team at that time. It was bad luck for the Argos and good luck for Greenwood that there was a late injury in KC which opened up a spot for him.

[paulwoods13]

Let me get this straight: people talk optimistically about Greenwood's possible return, when in fact not a single Argo draftee under similar circumstances has returned to the Argos in over 20 years. And yet very few here are prepared to blame a flawed draft strategy involving picking high-risk players in round one instead of safe picks who are much more likely to stay in Canada. I don't get it.

But (again) what is the better strategy? Take guys who are not likely to go the NFL because they're definitely not good enough? Wouldn't that mean passing on a lot of better players, many of whom would eventually (or immediately) end up in the CFL?

[RoRoYoBoat]

Let me get this straight: people talk optimistically about Greenwood's possible return, when in fact not a single Argo draftee under similar circumstances has returned to the Argos in over 20 years. And yet very few here are prepared to blame a flawed draft strategy involving picking high-risk players in round one instead of safe picks who are much more likely to stay in Canada. I don't get it.

I agree. Some teams like Montreal, BC and Calgaryl have drafted plenty of NCAA juniors and guys who had try-out and NFL PR contracts and seen just about every one of them. Like I wrote you have to do your homework and it helps to have contacts in the NFL to get some inside information as to how these prospects are viewed. 2010 was a spectacular draft no less than 25 players from that draft are active on CFL rosters, the Argos had NINE picks including #2 and #3 and have next to nothing to show for it two years later. They passed over guys like Watson, Bomben, Gore, Foster, Bulcke just to name a few.

But (again) what is the better strategy? Take guys who are not likely to go the NFL because they're definitely not good enough? Wouldn't that mean passing on a lot of better players, many of whom would eventually (or immediately) end up in the CFL?

Reinders over Bomben or Bender ?
Greenwood over Matte or Bender

Argos would have no problem fielding a NI Oline had they used common sense in the 2010 draft. That is the first priority building your NI talent. When you've got that sorted you can get cute with returners and linebackers. Three words come to mind with Argo scouting in the last 10 years. Lazy, drunk, incompetent.

[AngeloV]

I don't get all the flack some on here are giving the Argos over the drafting of Greenwood. Honestly, In the history of the NFL, how many CIS trained players have played in the NFL? 5? 10? I love the comments about the Argos not doing their homework when they drafted him because it was well known he was going to the NFL. Who's feeding all of you this information? Pretty easy to bring this up 3 years later.

[RoRoYoBoat]

I don't get all the flack some on here are giving the Argos over the drafting of Greenwood. Honestly, In the history of the NFL, how many CIS trained players have played in the NFL? 5? 10? I love the comments about the Argos not doing their homework when they drafted him because it was well known he was going to the NFL. Who's feeding all of you this information? Pretty easy to bring this up 3 years later.

Angelo are you happy with how we drafted over the last five or six years ?

How about Holmes, Reinders. It's not just Greenwood but in his case it was obvious there was a very good chance that he would get picked up by an NFL club. At the time Jim Popp was asked by Montreal reporters if he was going to try and move up to draft him and his answer was point blank "No, Greenwood is going to the NFL.".

I just don't think this team is in a position to gamble on or trade draft picks right now.

[KCargosfan]

It's not just Greenwood but in his case it was obvious there was a very good chance that he would get picked up by an NFL club. At the time Jim Popp was asked by Montreal reporters if he was going to try and move up to draft him and his answer was point blank "No, Greenwood is going to the NFL.".

lol, sure.

[RoRoYoBoat]

lol, sure.

Laughs the guy who had no clue who Feoli-Godino was. A real expert on the goings on of College ball in Canada.

[OV Argo]

Interesting discussion on Argos draft history and strategy, guys; and some interesting comparisons.

IMO - Kaczur is a classic example of a big gamble / potential total waste of a 1st round CFL draft pick - guy was a 4 year starter and all-star at a Div I program - obvious NFL type; OTOH - Federkeil was more the opposite end of the scale - CIS D-Lineman who although he played in the Shrine game, was not real huge nor had any eye-popping testing #s at the CFL E-Camp; i doubt anybody would have predicted that he makes the NFL as an O-Lineman (influence of Cal Murphy as a Colts scout was a factor i'd believe) - so Argo draft thinkers probably thought he was a good, safe bet for a 1st round pick. Greenwood more in between - top defensive player in all of Canadian college ball, PLUS he put up a superb set of testing #s at the Combine (probably as good a set of testing # for first rounder NFL draft type NCAA linebackers from big DI programs), and PLUS - it was known that NFL scouts had been sniffing around this guy (heard that before his final CIS season); SO - Argo personnel thinkers should have been aware of these factors, seems to me anywho - and been a bit leery of using a FIRST round pick on such a player - top CIS players have been drawing more and more attention over the past few years by the NFL; not sure Barker has much clue here though?

Not that CFL teams should ignore top talent available in their draft, but IMO it comes down to making sure a first rounder is going to be a guy who shows up pretty well for sure for you and plus addresses a team need. Fine to gamble on NFL flight risks (in the later rounds like Biakabatuka or Dawson, or recent CFL draft picks like Vaughn Martin or Phil Blake), OR - maybe if you have 2 first rounders and your team is already stocked with lots of NI talent - then sure, make a gamble type pick. IMO again - a CFL team with serious need for NIs, should almost NEVER be using their first round / top pick on a player who is viewed as even a decent NFL prospect - and because - most importantly - there is almost always plenty of very good talent available in the first couple of rounds of the CFL draft who end up making and playing well for CFL teams and a lot of these guys are pretty well sure bets to show-up for you and maybe contribute right away. Comes down to respect for a number of top draftable NIs - not sure it is there for a lot of CFL thinkers - so they have little hesitation to gamble or waste top picks on players because they are "great athletes" or the "best player" (whatever the **** that means), or else on "projects" they have taken a liking to for not real sound football reasons it seems sometimes. I'd always use my top CFL pick on proven football players who are very unlikely to get an NFL look; rather than on NFL potential guys or pie in the sky "projects" - use a top pick on a guy you are quite certain will be happy to report to the CFL and who is a player in an area of need; save the NFL flight risks or projects for the later rounds.

[RoRoYoBoat]

Interesting discussion on Argos draft history and strategy, guys; and some interesting comparisons.

IMO - Kaczur is a classic example of a big gamble / potential total waste of a 1st round CFL draft pick - guy was a 4 year starter and all-star at a Div I program - obvious NFL type; OTOH - Federkeil was more the opposite end of the scale - CIS D-Lineman who although he played in the Shrine game, was not real huge nor had any eye-popping testing #s at the CFL E-Camp; i doubt anybody would have predicted that he makes the NFL as an O-Lineman (influence of Cal Murphy as a Colts scout was a factor i'd believe) - so Argo draft thinkers probably thought he was a good, safe bet for a 1st round pick. Greenwood more in between - top defensive player in all of Canadian college ball, PLUS he put up a superb set of testing #s at the Combine (probably as good a set of testing # for first rounder NFL draft type NCAA linebackers from big DI programs), and PLUS - it was known that NFL scouts had been sniffing around this guy (heard that before his final CIS season); SO - Argo personnel thinkers should have been aware of these factors, seems to me anywho - and been a bit leery of using a FIRST round pick on such a player - top CIS players have been drawing more and more attention over the past few years by the NFL; not sure Barker has much clue here though?

Not that CFL teams should ignore top talent available in their draft, but IMO it comes down to making sure a first rounder is going to be a guy who shows up pretty well for sure for you and plus addresses a team need. Fine to gamble on NFL flight risks (in the later rounds like Biakabatuka or Dawson, or recent CFL draft picks like Vaughn Martin or Phil Blake), OR - maybe if you have 2 first rounders and your team is already stocked with lots of NI talent - then sure, make a gamble type pick. IMO again - a CFL team with serious need for NIs, should almost NEVER be using their first round / top pick on a player who is viewed as even a decent NFL prospect - and because - most importantly - there is almost always plenty of very good talent available in the first couple of rounds of the CFL draft who end up making and playing well for CFL teams and a lot of these guys are pretty well sure bets to show-up for you and maybe contribute right away. Comes down to respect for a number of top draftable NIs - not sure it is there for a lot of CFL thinkers - so they have little hesitation to gamble or waste top picks on players because they are "great athletes" or the "best player" (whatever the **** that means), or else on "projects" they have taken a liking to for not real sound football reasons it seems sometimes. I'd always use my top CFL pick on proven football players who are very unlikely to get an NFL look; rather than on NFL potential guys or pie in the sky "projects" - use a top pick on a guy you are quite certain will be happy to report to the CFL and who is a player in an area of need; save the NFL flight risks or projects for the later rounds.

Bang ! That easy... Buy the groceries before the lottery ticktets.

[Rich]

But (again) what is the better strategy? Take guys who are not likely to go the NFL because they're definitely not good enough? Wouldn't that mean passing on a lot of better players, many of whom would eventually (or immediately) end up in the CFL?

Paul, your inner Brunt is showing. Too many Canadians think the NFL has some kind of magic crystal ball that allows them to distinguish those players who are "good enough" for the NFL from those who are not. Well they don't. NFL teams spend millions of dollars on scouting and player development, and still almost half of the 1st-round picks in the NFL draft turn out to be stiffs. Sure, it's easy for them to take an Andrew Luck or a Trent Richardson, who are clearly way, way better than anyone coming into the CFL. But beyond the obvious elite talents, player evaluation is and always will be a crapshoot.

So what they do then is rely on the measurables. When a player scores exceptionally high at the combine, as I understand Greenwood did, then that player has to be considered a possible NFL prospect. The NFL took Reinders because he runs exceptionally well for such a big guy. But they had absolutely no idea if he could actually play the game or not.

So to answer your question, a better drafting strategy would be to identify great Canadian football players who don't have the exceptional measurables to make it onto the NFL radar. A guy can be good enough but not big enough for the NFL. Secondly the team should concentrate more on drafting CIS players. Third, if there's a guy with exceptional ability and character who openly states he wants to play in the CFL, then you bloody well take him if you have the chance.

[argolio]

I remember there being more NFL speculation concerning Shomari Williams in 2010 than for Greenwood. This year, there were some doubts whether Ben Heenan would be safe at #1 overall. In the end, CFL teams are at the mercy of the possibility of an agent finding a fit for his client down south.

As for drafting Kaczur in 2005, that was a pretty big mistake, especially considering we drafted him a few days after the NFL draft. Maybe coming off the Grey Cup win made our management too over-confident.

[ArgoGabe22]

The Argos aren't the only one's who are losing picks to the NFL. Danny Watkins and Phil Blake were both first round "futures" last year. Honestly no one thought Holmes would be an NFLer with his size and what not but it just happened and all you can do is congratulate the kid. Montreal made a gamble with Vaughn Martin in the 4th round, its great to have his rights but he will probably never play a down here. Cory Mace was drafted by WPG but for some strange reason we traded for him, now that is something I'm not happy with. We basically gave ABIII away for nothing. Gore and Lee were both players getting NFL interest yet the Lions still gambled on them. I personally don't like going for futures but you're making it seem the Argos are the only one's doing it.

I agree with Jim Popp, the CFL draft should only include Seniors who are ready to play right away. Players still may sign down south but at least they have a better sense of who.

[ArgoRavi]

I remember there being more NFL speculation concerning Shomari Williams in 2010 than for Greenwood. This year, there were some doubts whether Ben Heenan would be safe at #1 overall. In the end, CFL teams are at the mercy of the possibility of an agent finding a fit for his client down south.

As for drafting Kaczur in 2005, that was a pretty big mistake, especially considering we drafted him a few days after the NFL draft. Maybe coming off the Grey Cup win made our management too over-confident.

Kaczur was a terrible pick. Greenwood was not as Barker would have had to have psychic abilities to know that a KC player would be injured which was the only way that Greenwood would be in the NFL. If that player were not injured, Greenwood would likely be an Argo starter in 2012 and everyone would be hailing Barker as making a genius pick.

[Argocister]

[QUOTE=ArgoGabe22;7178

I agree with Jim Popp, the CFL draft should only include Seniors who are ready to play right away. Players still may sign down south but at least they have a better sense of who.[/QUOTE]

I also agree with this as well as Popps statement regarding adding more rounds to the draft. Right now it appears worthwhile to lay your claim on the futures and those that may end up in the NFL, as there will still be a pool of good prospects to chose from afterwards. But I have a question, how many players from the draft can or would be signed? If you had 10 rounds, would a team sign all 10 players?