Argos want what TFC has - and vice versa

[ArgoRavi]

A very good column by Steve Simmons: http://torontosun.com/sports/footbal...and-vice-versa

It is great to get updated TV numbers here.

[Neely2005]

Definitely an interesting read but I still don't agree with the Myth that it's all old white guys at Argonauts games. I see plenty of kids and families at every game.

[gilthethrill]

Definitely an interesting read but I still don't agree with the Myth that it's all old white guys at Argonauts games. I see plenty of kids and families at every game.

I am seeing that trend as well. Still believe TFC has hit it's peak and will level off in the very near future.

[DoubleBlue_Red]

I am seeing that trend as well. Still believe TFC has hit it's peak and will level off in the very near future.

As long as MLSE is buying designated players, the support will not not die off any time soon. MLS as a whole is a growth league and Toronto is one of the top 5 clubs.

[Mightygoose]

It's a good article but although both teams are poised for hopefully long playoff runs, the unfortunate part is the continued comparison between the 2 teams will take away from any on field success the Argos hope to have.

Argos brass can learn from what makes TFC a success and hopefully with the overlap in ownership they will.

Overall, the Argos early days in BMO are coinciding with what appears to be a golden era with TFC. Similar to the Argos early days in SkyDome occurring during the Jays glory years.

[doubleblue]

A very good column by Steve Simmons: http://torontosun.com/sports/footbal...and-vice-versa

It is great to get updated TV numbers here.

Interesting read. I was under the impression that the CFL TV rating were higher than the 473,000 mentioned and the TFC were around 80,000 from figures I have seen. That might have been last year's numbers I was thinking about though for TFC.
From watching and listening to the Sport Channels one would think the numbers were reversed. Little about the Argos, much about the Soccer team. Do the people who pay for advertisement not look at the viewer/listener numbers. I know I off to another channel if there is something about Soccer or Baskekball on, but maybe I'm one of the odd balls who only want to hear about the Argos, Leafs and Jays.
Stevie said the Argos averaged under 14,000 this year, and maybe including the pre-season game that could be true. But I don't think those ex games should be included. Even the mighty NFL plays in front of half empty stadiums in pre-season. According to cfl.ca game stats, the Argos average was 14,403 for their 9 regular season home games. 20,000 would be nice to see eventually. Going to be difficult selling ST's for the lower East side if they keep scheduling afternoon games in July and August. Talk about the Hot Stove League. Some People talk about things that "really burns their ..." but I don't think they have tried to sit on the lower East side for an Argo game for a summer afternoon game.

[gilthethrill]

As long as MLSE is buying designated players, the support will not not die off any time soon. MLS as a whole is a growth league and Toronto is one of the top 5 clubs.

Not all of these high priced imports pay off. I have no interest in MLS what so ever, but MLSE tried to buy championships several times over the years but failed. Once TFC starts becoming ordinary, or worse, the fans will stay away until they compete again.

[paulwoods13]

From watching and listening to the Sport Channels one would think the numbers were reversed. Little about the Argos, much about the Soccer team.

I don't watch Sportsnet very often, but I almost always PVR TSN's SportsCentre at 5 and 6 p.m. They have way more coverage of the CFL than MLS. It's not remotely close. Obviously now that MLS playoffs are here, with two Cdn teams in them, there is a fair bit of MLS coverage. But from June through end of October I would bet CFL gets at least 10 times the coverage MLS does on SportsCentre, and it may be a much higher ratio than that.

[timlb01]

One can look at this a few ways. MLS has a revenue stream of $550 million and the CFL has aprox has $200 million. You can argue MLS has more than double the teams but the bottom line is the same problem for the CFL is that Canada only does not have the population base to compete long term with other leagues that play in the US and here. I am not a MLS fan but I don't think from my perspective it is going to shrink but only grow. MLS has done a great job and have built purposeful stadiums for their teams which is something the CFL has been unable to do in Halifax and Quebec City to name two locations. CFL needs to stabilize the current teams but also grow by expanding. Sometimes growth / expansion can lead to stabilization. I think these types of arguments about the CFL and its health will go on forever as perception without US teams and revenue is it can never be as good.

I have made this argument before but the focus should be on how different the game is and how it takes different types of players to play the Canadian game. Maybe the CFL could target US expansion again and look to put teams into MLS specific stadiums.... now that would be something and I am sure with the love for real football they could generate a deeper TV contract then MLS.

[paulwoods13]

Maybe the CFL could target US expansion again and look to put teams into MLS specific stadiums.... now that would be something and I am sure with the love for real football they could generate a deeper TV contract then MLS.

Except most Americans don't consider the brand of football played in Canada to be "real" football. There was no MLS to compete with in 1993-95, yet we didn't see the CFL getting on U.S. network TV, so why would it happen now? The U.S. expansion days are over and won't be repeated IMO. Get into Halifax if possible (of course there's no stadium and a million other reasons why it's far from happening) but anything above a 10-team league in my lifetime would be a shocker.

[timlb01]

Except most Americans don't consider the brand of football played in Canada to be "real" football. There was no MLS to compete with in 1993-95, yet we didn't see the CFL getting on U.S. network TV, so why would it happen now? The U.S. expansion days are over and won't be repeated IMO. Get into Halifax if possible (of course there's no stadium and a million other reasons why it's far from happening) but anything above a 10-team league in my lifetime would be a shocker.

I agree that I do not see the US expansion again. I don't think it should be completely dismissed. One of the real issues back in 1993-5 was the fact it was done in a rush as the league needed the cash infusion. I think if we look at the USFL example it is possible to get a foot hold in that market. But like you said I too do not see it happening again.

I would like to see Halifax and Quebec City along with another city. That would be great. I saw on 3downnation.com that the Comish was talking about expansion but more forcefully. I hope it happens.

[paulwoods13]

As always with expansion talk, two things are prerequisites: stadium and ownership. I don't see anyone building CFL-calibre stadiums in any city any time soon. If Halifax could get a big international event like Pan-Ams or Commonwealth Games, it might happen, but neither seems likely in foreseeable future. Quebec City spent a lot of public money on an NHL-sized hockey arena that does not have an NHL team -- hard to see govt coughing up for a stadium.

A 12-team CFL would be fabulous (but extremely unlikely), a 10-team league would be way more than 11% better than what we have now, but I'm not expecting even the latter in the next five years.

[Tobythor]

As always with expansion talk, two things are prerequisites: stadium and ownership. I don't see anyone building CFL-calibre stadiums in any city any time soon. If Halifax could get a big international event like Pan-Ams or Commonwealth Games, it might happen, but neither seems likely in foreseeable future. Quebec City spent a lot of public money on an NHL-sized hockey arena that does not have an NHL team -- hard to see govt coughing up for a stadium.

A 12-team CFL would be fabulous (but extremely unlikely), a 10-team league would be way more than 11% better than what we have now, but I'm not expecting even the latter in the next five years.

Unfortunately, Halifax was considering a Commowealth games bid about 10 years and decided against it due to cost. Too bad, I was hoping it would help get a stadium for a CFL team as well.

[Topshelf]

That was a suprisingly fair article to both sides. The TFC GameDay experience is fantastic, they seem to be on the upward trend, but it is true their tv numbers are dismal. Heck, I'm an SSH for tfc and I never watch regular season away games.

Can the Argos replicate that atmosphere at BMO. I'd say doubtful, but ottawa has proven that cfl franchises can bounce back.

Everyone knows who the Argos are. But their biggest star isn't on the field. Pinball is loved by this city, as he should be. But Ray is a future hall of famer and doesn't carry the same status I'd say as TFC's big 3.

The only knock against the Simmons piece is that we all know that, it's been the same storyline for at least 2 years, it's an article that would have been better placed in the preseason next year highlighting what the argos had planned to bring the fans off their couch and to bmo

[AngeloV]

Everyone knows who the Argos are. But their biggest star isn't on the field. Pinball is loved by this city, as he should be. But Ray is a future hall of famer and doesn't carry the same status I'd say as TFC's big 3.

TFC's big 3 make huge money. I've said for a long time that the attitude in Toronto is quite often based strictly on money, and not entertainment value. Because the other teams in the city have players making multi-million dollars annually, and not 1 Argo player is even close to that, many people perceive the Argos as being minor league.

[DoubleBlue_Red]

TFC will never have the Canada-wide viewership that the Argos have. Interest in TFC is largely within the 416 and the GTA, so the TV numbers will always be limited.

While the Argos may have limited interest in the 6ix, they do have the advantage of a Canada-wide audience by virtue of the fact they are always playing another CFL team.

[argotom]

Definitely an interesting read but I still don't agree with the Myth that it's all old white guys at Argonauts games. I see plenty of kids and families at every game.

Absolutely, that's one of the things that I have noticed the last few years and it has been on the increase.

[Shatto]

Numbers can be interpreted many ways based on one's bias but here is one possible take on the numbers, assuming they are correct.

Approximately, for every one TFC fan who attends their games, 3 people watch the TFC games on TV. Whereas, for every one Argo fan who attends games, about 30 people watch their games on TV. This seems to indicate, TFC is hugely popular with a relatively small local group but the rest of the country is relatively uninterested in the team. With the Argos it appears to be the opposite, with less interest in the team locally but a seemingly strong interest across the country.

IMO, it should be an easier task, to increase stadium numbers than national TV numbers. If Copeland et al can manage to address the attendance concerns, the Argos will be on very strong footing. My only concern, is Copeland has been extremely unsuccessful so far and numbers have actually gone down this year, which raises the question of how long can ownership continue to stay with this CEO. The next couple of years will be crucial in the team's future. A CEO and marketing manager, who can increase attendance are of essential importance to the team, right now. The window is small and the team deserves the best possible people in place to attract fans to the stadium. Hopefully Copeland will be able to do the job but if not, for the sake of the team, changes will have to be made.

[paulwoods13]

Excellent analysis, Shatto.

[OV Argo]

TFC will never have the Canada-wide viewership that the Argos have. Interest in TFC is largely within the 416 and the GTA, so the TV numbers will always be limited.

While the Argos may have limited interest in the 6ix, they do have the advantage of a Canada-wide audience by virtue of the fact they are always playing another CFL team.

Soccer may continue to grow in popularity in Canada, but IMO, pro soccer will never become huge and approach even close to viewership numbers of hockey, OR, football - which (and a lot of people, like Simmons, don't get this) - IS a Canadian game - invented here and played here, competitively, at many levels, for over a hundred years.

IF Canadian football got even a fraction of the attention now - from media types - that hockey does, then the CFL would be much more popular - like back in the old glory days of the CFL - 60s & 70s say - when CFL football did get way more hype and attention and rivalled NHL hockey for coverage and respect in the old media (daily newspapers) of the day. Those days are long gone of course, and there are now decades worth of wannabes ignoring Canadian football and flocking to other sports as they were told the CFL wasn't major league or world class and worth any attention. But I still believe the CFL and Canadian football could see some sort of resurgence in popularity and respect - not sure I'd bet on that though. But I would be willing to bet that pro soccer in Canada (or the US) never gets anything close to the viewership numbers that the CFL has had in Canada. Part of this is because football is a Canadian sport.