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  1. #41
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    The good TV numbers cited in the article show why Bell has invested in the team and should continue to do so. Though the Argo crowd is not entirely 'old and white', it leans that way, and much of it stays home. This while the more niche TFC crowd, which is younger and more accurately, kinda/sorta, reflects modern Toronto, goes to the games. So, how do the Argos get at least some of the people who watch their games from home down to the stadium? If a few more did (like 4 or 5 thousand), it'd look way better on TV, would shut the cynics up, and thereby attract more younger/casual fans because it would look like a fun place to be. A full(ish) East Side is the advertising required, regardless of the age or ethnicity of those sitting there. If the old(er) guard came out, instead of watching from home, wouldn't that do more good to spark interest from the newer fans the Argos seem to be targeting and need to survive in the long term? The younger crowd, new Canadians, and anyone who has not grown up watching CFL, needs to be shown they way and the way to help do it is to go to the games!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleBlue_Red View Post
    My point is that if the Argos are playing Edmonton for example, the TV numbers are increased because there is viewership in the Edmonton market and across the country. This contributes to the healthy TV numbers.
    Importantly, Simmons wrote this: "In Southern Ontario alone, the Argos have 60% more viewers than TFC."

    The opponent does not matter. The Argos draw far more viewers for their games in Southern Ontario alone than TFC does.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArgoRavi View Post
    Importantly, Simmons wrote this: "In Southern Ontario alone, the Argos have 60% more viewers than TFC."

    The opponent does not matter. The Argos draw far more viewers for their games in Southern Ontario alone than TFC does.
    It seems like most TFC fans go to the games and there aren't many other TFC fans left to watch on TV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neely2005 View Post
    It seems like most TFC fans go to the games and there aren't many other TFC fans left to watch on TV.
    But because the stadium is full, it creates the perception that TFC has more fans, is more successful, and is the place to be for the casual fans. I have friends who are casual sports fans, and who follow the hot team. Otherwise they don't pay attention to any team in particular. Last year it was the Jays - several of them hadn't been to a game in years. But the dome was the place to be, so they followed the team and went. This year a couple of these people went to TFC games (posting pics of themselves on Facebook, for G's sake!); it's the place to be. TFC is even popping up in conversation, and when I mention the CFL, I get blank stares. But this is only a perception issue, as the numbers Simmons cites reflects. As I said, if even some of the Argo fans who watched from home came down to a game, the very act of filling the stadium creates that positive perception for the Argos, which is what the casual fan picks up on, and drives their desire to follow the team. The hardcore fan will always be there (at this point 13,000 to 15,000), but the casual fan puts a team over the top financially, by attending a game, or two, a season. Right now it seems like the vast number of hardcore members of 'Argo Nation' stay home to watch, to the detriment of the team's reputation.

    Long term, the Argos need to cultivate new, younger fans, as they are doing with tailgates, their targeting of elementary aged kids, and the in-game presentation (as in hip hop and techno, over AC/DC!) but the best advertising is a full stadium. The Argos have enough fans out there to do it now. In another thread, someone posted that 40,000 attended a game just 10 years ago. Where are these people, and why don't they come back?

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    I find it curious that the success or failure of TFC and the Argos are so often treated as a zero sum affair. While there's a basic linkage between all the sports teams in the city given a finite number of entertainment dollars spent, MLS growth has very little to do with CFL decline in Toronto.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Barnes View Post
    In another thread, someone posted that 40,000 attended a game just 10 years ago. Where are these people, and why don't they come back?
    Argos lost ALOT of fans with the eviction from Rogers Centre. BMO is not as easy to get to as it was and so people don't go.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BATKINSON001 View Post
    Argos lost ALOT of fans with the eviction from Rogers Centre. BMO is not as easy to get to as it was and so people don't go.
    I absolutely agree, BMO isn't easy to get to. But that doesn't stop the TFC fans. The Dome is more convenient to get to (via public transit, at least), but was a terrible venue for football, while BMO may well have the best sight lines of any stadium I've ever been to - so the trip is worth it. Plus, many of the old(er) guard will have trucked down to Exhibition Stadium, back in the day, so why not BMO now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Barnes View Post
    I absolutely agree, BMO isn't easy to get to. But that doesn't stop the TFC fans. The Dome is more convenient to get to (via public transit, at least), but was a terrible venue for football, while BMO may well have the best sight lines of any stadium I've ever been to - so the trip is worth it. Plus, many of the old(er) guard will have trucked down to Exhibition Stadium, back in the day, so why not BMO now?
    . The old guard as most fans from back then probably have moved out of the gta and won't bother making the trip back in to the city.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BATKINSON001 View Post
    . The old guard as most fans from back then probably have moved out of the gta and won't bother making the trip back in to the city.
    Yes, fair enough...it is a challenge to get into the city for games. I live in Barrie and leave at least 2 hours before game time, sometimes three, and don't always make it with much time to spare, if any. But again, all the other GTA teams face the same situation.

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    Mike Babcock discussing his Green Riders and its on Sportsnet.

    This is good for us also. We needed more of this

    http://www.sportsnet.ca/football/cfl...n-roughriders/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Barnes View Post
    I absolutely agree, BMO isn't easy to get to. But that doesn't stop the TFC fans. The Dome is more convenient to get to (via public transit, at least), but was a terrible venue for football, while BMO may well have the best sight lines of any stadium I've ever been to - so the trip is worth it. Plus, many of the old(er) guard will have trucked down to Exhibition Stadium, back in the day, so why not BMO now?
    There's no comparison to the traffic conditions to BMO Field vs. Exhibition Stadium. With exception to getting in and out of the parking lot. The city has probably tripled in size and infrastructure is exactly the same. It is noticeably much more difficult to get to games.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BATKINSON001 View Post
    Argos lost ALOT of fans with the eviction from Rogers Centre. BMO is not as easy to get to as it was and so people don't go.
    I find BMO easier to get to, especially from the West. Lots of "secret" lots in Liberty village, really easy West end Medieval Times/Raptors lot. If you tailgate, you have a whole reserved lot. The train drops you off steps from the gate.

    At the dome, I remember waiting for 1/2 hr on the Spadina exit, then another 1/2hr to park underground for $20 back then. Not exactly convenient. To catch a train, you would have to leave 30 minutes early to take the very long Skywalk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArgoZ View Post
    I find BMO easier to get to, especially from the West. Lots of "secret" lots in Liberty village, really easy West end Medieval Times/Raptors lot. If you tailgate, you have a whole reserved lot. The train drops you off steps from the gate.

    At the dome, I remember waiting for 1/2 hr on the Spadina exit, then another 1/2hr to park underground for $20 back then. Not exactly convenient. To catch a train, you would have to leave 30 minutes early to take the very long Skywalk.
    Don't miss the dome what so ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArgoZ View Post
    I find BMO easier to get to, especially from the West. Lots of "secret" lots in Liberty village, really easy West end Medieval Times/Raptors lot. If you tailgate, you have a whole reserved lot. The train drops you off steps from the gate.

    At the dome, I remember waiting for 1/2 hr on the Spadina exit, then another 1/2hr to park underground for $20 back then. Not exactly convenient. To catch a train, you would have to leave 30 minutes early to take the very long Skywalk.
    It's true, coming in from the west by car is considerably easier than the East, especially Monday to Friday. The DVP is often a problem and by Bloor you have to he entire City of Toronto heading home west in front of you. So bad that we've often driven to the west side and come down 427 to approach BMO Field from that side.

    I think our solution for 2018 is to take the GO train to the game, but that means abandoning tailgating.

    I'd add that the traffic problem becomes incrementally more difficult. After 10 years, you ask yourself how did it get this bad? No improvement in sight.
    “it's not the strongest who survive nor the most intelligent but the ones most adaptable to change.’ Charles Darwin

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1971GreyCup View Post
    It's true, coming in from the west by car is considerably easier than the East, especially Monday to Friday. The DVP is often a problem and by Bloor you have to he entire City of Toronto heading home west in front of you. So bad that we've often driven to the west side and come down 427 to approach BMO Field from that side.

    I think our solution for 2018 is to take the GO train to the game, but that means abandoning tailgating.

    I'd add that the traffic problem becomes incrementally more difficult. After 10 years, you ask yourself how did it get this bad? No improvement in sight.
    Agreed. I have always maintained the hassle of getting to the games is a big part of some fans staying homes and watching on TV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleblue View Post
    Agreed. I have always maintained the hassle of getting to the games is a big part of some fans staying homes and watching on TV.
    No doubt, there are challenges in getting to the games. This year, I was able to make every game - last year I missed a few - that's how it goes...but when the majority of Argo fans choose to stay home the majority of the time, as it now appears, then we have the situation as it now exists: Argos, with what the numbers tell us is a strong fan base, LOOKING like losers, who should just move to Halifax (as the Premier of Saskatchewan suggested). Meanwhile, the soccer team that has a much smaller fan base look like world beaters because the stadium is always raucous and full. This is the perception people have across the country, both CFL fans and detractors, especially in the GTA. At some point Argo Nation has to start coming to the stadium in greater numbers (not every game but more). Clearly the fan base exists, but until the current fans start to come to the stadium more often, why would a new fan come? If many of the Argos most ardent fans won't bother to actually attend a game, why would a new, young or casual fan make the effort?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BATKINSON001 View Post
    Argos lost ALOT of fans with the eviction from Rogers Centre. BMO is not as easy to get to as it was and so people don't go.
    Don’t agree with this statement at all, BMO is actually easier to get to than Skydome.
    Go train to the Ex, 2 minute walk and your there, not so difficult.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArgoZ View Post
    I find BMO easier to get to, especially from the West. Lots of "secret" lots in Liberty village, really easy West end Medieval Times/Raptors lot. If you tailgate, you have a whole reserved lot. The train drops you off steps from the gate.

    At the dome, I remember waiting for 1/2 hr on the Spadina exit, then another 1/2hr to park underground for $20 back then. Not exactly convenient. To catch a train, you would have to leave 30 minutes early to take the very long Skywalk.
    I agree. The only thing I miss about the dome was being able to walk there from work on weeknight game. I usually takes me 40 minutes or so to bet home after a game now. Used to take me 20 minutes just go walk to the parking log after a game at the dome.
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    So much in Toronto has changed since the 1970s. Games were played on the weekend. During the week, Argo fans used to head home. Get changed and head in from Etobicoke, Mississauga, North York or Scarborough. Mostly Sunday games without the rush hours to contend with. On the way to, and once away from the stadium, clear sailing. Express TTC buses were available from Yorkdale and Royal York as an alternative. Game blackouts didn't offer an alternative.

    Many of the games now are played during the week now and all games are televised.

    Many of the children of the 1970s Argo fans now live in the GTA from Burlington, Barrie to Newcastle. The Monday to Friday traffic GTA gridlock puts off those that still prefer driving over commuting. If you work in the city, the fans or family you'd attend the games with, might not. Those that live and work well outside the city may look at the gridlock and say no way. Get home, eat and turn on the game on TV.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1971GreyCup View Post
    So much in Toronto has changed since the 1970s. Games were played on the weekend. During the week, Argo fans used to head home. Get changed and head in from Etobicoke, Mississauga, North York or Scarborough. Mostly Sunday games without the rush hours to contend with. On the way to, and once away from the stadium, clear sailing. Express TTC buses were available from Yorkdale and Royal York as an alternative. Game blackouts didn't offer an alternative.

    Many of the games now are played during the week now and all games are televised.

    Many of the children of the 1970s Argo fans now live in the GTA from Burlington, Barrie to Newcastle. The Monday to Friday traffic GTA gridlock puts off those that still prefer driving over commuting. If you work in the city, the fans or family you'd attend the games with, might not. Those that live and work well outside the city may look at the gridlock and say no way. Get home, eat and turn on the game on TV.
    Yet, Argos still draw poorly on the weekends, when the gridlock is much less. Other Toronto teams still draw their fans, fans of all ages, from across the GTA, in spite of all this. Smaller crowds for weeknight games, perhaps, for many of the same reasons you mention but still better than the Argos manage. But it's not that the Argo fans aren't out there! Why do those fan bases attend games while the Argo fan base chooses to watch from home?

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