Argos want what TFC has - and vice versa

[DoubleBlue_Red]

I find it curious that the success or failure of TFC and the Argos are so often treated as a zero sum affair. While there's a basic linkage between all the sports teams in the city given a finite number of entertainment dollars spent, MLS growth has very little to do with CFL decline in Toronto.

It has become more of a zero sum affair now that the teams are sharing BMO field. Clearly 1/2 the Argo fanbase does not like BMO field and are not attending.

[paulwoods13]

Clearly 1/2 the Argo fanbase does not like BMO field and are not attending.

Huh? So the Argos have 28,000 fans, but only 14,000 of them like BMO? Any evidence for this claim?

[DoubleBlue_Red]

Huh? So the Argos have 28,000 fans, but only 14,000 of them like BMO? Any evidence for this claim?

In the Flutie era the Argos averaged about 17K at the Dome.

In the Damon Allen era they averaged about 23k.

In the Braley era the average was back to about 17k.

In the BMO field era the Argos are around 14K.

There has clearly been a decline in attendance over a short amount of time.

[Mightygoose]

In the BMO field era, they Argos also started reporting attendance based on scanned, not sold and distributed so it's tough to compare recent eras. In the final 2 years of the Braley era...when the bottom really fell off, how many actually attended. Based on what were seeing in BC these days, I would say much lower than announced.

[paulwoods13]

In the Flutie era the Argos averaged about 17K at the Dome.

In the Damon Allen era they averaged about 23k.

In the Braley era the average was back to about 17k.

In the BMO field era the Argos are around 14K.

There has clearly been a decline in attendance over a short amount of time.

None of this provides evidence that half of the Argos' fanbase does not like BMO and is not attending. Attendance has been declining since 1976, with a few upward exceptions along the way.

[BATKINSON001]

None of this provides evidence that half of the Argos' fanbase does not like BMO and is not attending. Attendance has been declining since 1976, with a few upward exceptions along the way.

no it doesn't, but a large portion of the Argos fanbase chooses not to, or cannot, attend the home games.

[DoubleBlue_Red]

None of this provides evidence that half of the Argos' fanbase does not like BMO and is not attending. Attendance has been declining since 1976, with a few upward exceptions along the way.

OK 'half' is hyperbole. But long story short in 2007 the Argos were getting 20K+ in the Skydome. They are not getting that at BMO.

[Jon Gonzo]

I think some are guilty of over-simplification in this thread.

How not to run a business? Do what Braley did over his 5 year tenure as Owner.

I believe the current attendance numbers are more an echo of that inefficiency -- as opposed to any statement about the new facility.

I'll give Braley credit for the hold; it may have saved the franchise, but there has been a price to pay.

Now that we've checked off a couple of boxes in the positive column (a good football program with solid football people running it, and a more entertaining product, and good football team) we will call on Michael Copeland to channel Keith Pelley with business baby steps.

This truly is (pardon the cliche) a 5 season program of re-growth.

This is Year 1.

Can they do it? Yes, they can; but Copeland will have to be good. I know I'll demand that of him. It's important to me, us and the entire league.

[paulwoods13]

OK 'half' is hyperbole. But long story short in 2007 the Argos were getting 20K+ in the Skydome. They are not getting that at BMO.

It is fact that they are not currently drawing 20k at BMO. It is far less certain that they were regularly drawing 20k+ (at least paid) at SkyDome in 2007, since it has widely been reported that attendance figures released by that regime were not accurate. Beyond that, there is the undisputed fact that attendance peaked in 1976 and has been dropping ever since, except for a few upward blips along the way. Your statement seems to suggest that BMO is the reason fans are not attending. Which doesn't explain the 27 years in SkyDome, or the last 12 in Exhibition Stadium.

[Mightygoose]

I think some are guilty of over-simplification in this thread.

How not to run a business? Do what Braley did over his 5 year tenure as Owner.

I believe the current attendance numbers are more an echo of that inefficiency -- as opposed to any statement about the new facility.

I'll give Braley credit for the hold; it may have saved the franchise, but there has been a price to pay.

Now that we've checked off a couple of boxes in the positive column (a good football program with solid football people running it, and a more entertaining product, and good football team) we will call on Michael Copeland to channel Keith Pelley with business baby steps.

This truly is (pardon the cliche) a 5 season program of re-growth.

This is Year 1.

Can they do it? Yes, they can; but Copeland will have to be good. I know I'll demand that of him. It's important to me, us and the entire league.

This.

1 years ago is not that long ago. In 2007 the Argos averaged nearly 31K a game (sold and distributed). Yes, that was a Grey Cup hosting year which brings up the average. Still during the C&S era, they never averaged less than 25K a game. They were higher than the Jays in many of those years.

That started to slowly slip during the Braley era but were seeing things in BC very similar to what happened here too. I've always said a badly run business is going to have fewer customers than one that's well run and funded. The Grey Cup Fiasco last year is a big part of this year's decline.....still a by product of the Braley era I might add. That's a major difference between TFC and the Argos too.

[ToneDeaf]

I'm a Brit and therefore primarily a soccer fan by default. I'm also interested enough in CFL and the Argos in particular to have read this forum for some time and will attend my first game in person at the Eastern playoff final. I am genuinely looking forward to it.

Now I hope some of you will have been able to read past my opening sentence without dismissing me as a troll and be prepared to read my twopenny worth on this subject with an open mind, because often, some of you guys on this forum might well be a reason why newcomers are deterred from attending Argo games.

Firstly, sports fans are the most likely persons likely to want to want to attend an Argo game. An obvious statement yes, but also a pertinent one. My point here is that fans of other sports tempted to go and watch the Argos in the flesh will often happen upon places like this forum and read the attitudes on display to see if they might 'fit in' with the crowd. To see some of the comments levelled towards soccer is off-putting to say the least and will deter potential fans - take it from me, I nearly changed my mind to book up for the Eastern final.

Also, the younger generation will not tolerate what seems to be borderline homophobic commentary on display on this thread and will only increase the perception that Argo fans are fusty, old, white men with two feet in the past.

Another opinion that is evident here on a regular basis is that those who attend other sports are 'wannabe' Americans or otherwise and in some way not proudly Canadian enough. That is frankly bullshit - I have never met a Canadian who is not extremely proud to be so and I have never met anyone from any other country so keen to distinguish themselves from being mistaken as a citizen of another country. Just because a person enjoys another sport does not make them wannabe anything.

And therein lies another problem with regard to attracting a younger demographic; the fact that this generation sees itself as part of a global society. I know many (Torontonians) consider the CFL to be minor league or a second class product as do many of you by the looks of it, but that is and isn't because it's Canadian. Due to the 24 hour long, 24 time zones wide availability of information, people these days feel part of the wider World. Limiting a sport to within the borders of this great country seems parochial to many citizens of what is a World-class city. The kids want to play and beat New York City, Chicago and Los Angeles, not Regina, Hamilton or Winnipeg. I predict that one day taking on the largest US cities will not be enough and Torontonians will want to take on the Londons, Parises, Moscows, Tokyos and Beijings. And they want to because they want to beat them, not be them - they're proud Canadians who want to project themselves onto the global stage, not the domestic.

Maybe it might be time to retain the game but market it in a manner that places it's Canadianness as secondary and not fully in the face of those it seeks to attract? Sure that would be anathema to many of the purists on here but, as long as the World makes itself more open and available, the kids will want to look outwards instead of inwards.

I look forward to the game on the 19th - I can't wait in fact - but I will be interested to make my own, first-hand observations towards the demographics of the crowd and also it's opinions and politics if only to see just how welcoming and inclusive it is.

[paulwoods13]

The rote condemnation of soccer and/or MLS by Cdn football fans, and Cdn football by MLS and/or soccer fans, is extremely unbecoming to both groups. It largely disappeared from this forum some time ago, but every now and then it rears its ugly head, sadly. I've said before and I'll say again, TFC is here to stay and Argo fans would do well to live and let live. And of course the same goes for TFC fans (a few of whom can't seem to avoid indulging in wishful "Argos-will-die" posts on social media).

[ToneDeaf]

The rote condemnation of soccer and/or MLS by Cdn football fans, and Cdn football by MLS and/or soccer fans, is extremely unbecoming to both groups. It largely disappeared from this forum some time ago, but every now and then it rears its ugly head, sadly. I've said before and I'll say again, TFC is here to stay and Argo fans would do well to live and let live. And of course the same goes for TFC fans (a few of whom can't seem to avoid indulging in wishful "Argos-will-die" posts on social media).

I agree wholeheartedly that both fans groups ought to be more tolerant of the other. I watch TFC regularly at BMO and deeply dislike the moronic 'No Argos at BMO' chant. It is, however rooted mainly in one particular fan group who by no means represent the opinions of the larger fan base.

I might add that I also hate the ridiculous over reactions to fouls in soccer, as do the vast majority of soccer fans. it is a scourge on what is otherwise the 'beautiful game'.

I do hope that TFC and Argo fans can live and let live as you say - there are benefits that each can gain from the other and also become fans of the other, but it takes effort from both sides - there have been notorious Argo trolls targeting TFC on social media, too.

[paulwoods13]

there have been notorious Argo trolls targeting TFC on social media, too.

Unfortunately, this is 100% true.

[Shatto]

Like ToneDeaf, I was born in the UK and have attended top tier soccer games there. I have a fondness, appreciation and understanding of the game but an undying love for the CFL and the Argos, so yes there is a bias to the Canadian game. Hopefully Tone has a great time on Nov 19 and returns for regular season games next year.

Though agreeing with many of the points made, I must, respectfully, take exception to the "borderline homophobic" comment and the implication this could be part of an "old white men" syndrome. Frankly, I find that generalization, both insulting and unbecoming of someone who obviously writes so open mindedly and intelligently. In the past couple of years, a number of the "younger generation" TFC fans, have been guilty of some atrocious behaviour, including ugly sexist comments made to a young female reporter but I would never suggest that this is indicative of the general behaviour of TFC fans. I have also not anti TFC taunts by Argo fans at the BMO but have heard anti Argo taunts at TFC games.

Though born a Brit, I'm now a Canadian through and through (even though my kids still think have an English accent). As a Canadian, I can appreciate the history of the CFL and its contributions to Canadian culture. Only in Canada would a fan bypass the PM and speak to an ex CFL great (Jackson). One of things often overlooked, is how competitive the CFL an its players are when compared to gold level NFL. When I try to convince my friends, including ex-Brits to follow TFC and perhaps even attend a game, they mock MLS league not as second rate but as 5th or 6th rate. They will dutifully watch Man U on telly but never watch a TFC game. Until that attitude changes, TFC will continue to have abysmal TV ratings. Hopefully, that attitude will change and we can look forward to both great crowds for Argos games at BMO and good TV ratings for TFC and MLS.

I look forward to the time when TFC fans embrace having the Argos at BMO and Argo fans rejoice in the successes of TFC. Well, I can always hope.

ToneDeaf, thank you for your comments and analysis of the situation involving CFL and MLS. If I have disagreed with you on some points, please don't see that as a criticism of your post, on the whole. It was brave of you to come on this site and express your thoughts in a cogent and honest manner. Do attend the tailgating on the 19th, if you are able. If you make yourself know, I'm sure a number of us would be very happy to treat you to a beer. Once again, enjoy the game and hopefully an Argo win.

[R.J]

So........... previously the dome was seen as a big problem, because A. it was too big, and B. that it was a pain in the butt to drive to due to it being downtown. Now BMO which is in the old Ex. stadium grounds (which a lot of people wanted to go back to) is a problem because what was previously believed to be the "better" location no longer is and is a pain in the butt to get to ?

Seems to me Argo/CFL fans are always looking to find excuses for not attending. The dome didn't keep Jays fans, away when they were winning, the ACC seems to fill up nicely for the Leafs and Raps, and BMO Field to fill up relatively nicely for TFC.

[AngeloV]

So........... previously the dome was seen as a big problem, because A. it was too big, and B. that it was a pain in the butt to drive to due to it being downtown. Now BMO which is in the old Ex. stadium grounds (which a lot of people wanted to go back to) is a problem because what was previously believed to be the "better" location no longer is and is a pain in the butt to get to ?

Seems to me Argo/CFL fans are always looking to find excuses for not attending. The dome didn't keep Jays fans, away when they were winning, the ACC seems to fill up nicely for the Leafs and Raps, and BMO Field to fill up relatively nicely for TFC.

You can't just label Argo/CFL fans based on what you read here. Nothing that is speculated by a few on here is exactly 100% correct. As I mentioned, I come from north of the city, and find at least getting out of BMO to be a breeze compared to the dome. Getting in is about the same. Drive about 10-15 minutes longer, but the shorter walk to the stadium more than makes up for that. Plenty of cheap municipal parking lots around BMO also makes it more desirable for me.

[R.J]

You can't just label Argo/CFL fans based on what you read here. Nothing that is speculated by a few on here is exactly 100% correct. As I mentioned, I come from north of the city, and find at least getting out of BMO to be a breeze compared to the dome. Getting in is about the same. Drive about 10-15 minutes longer, but the shorter walk to the stadium more than makes up for that. Plenty of cheap municipal parking lots around BMO also makes it more desirable for me.

Not disagreeing, I just find it disappointing that "diehards" are still finding things to complain about when it comes to a stadium/location. I take the GO to the majority of games I attend, and I found it easy to go to the games at the dome and BMO. The times that I do drive to the games, I still don't see any issue.

The Argos have attendance issues are due to the perception of the CFL, just like the Rock (NLL), and Marlies (AHL). The Leafs, Raps, Jays and TFC all seem to sell fine (Jays will see a decline soon I think), and people seem to find ways to attend those games for the teams they enjoy. I don't understand why there's always excuses/complaints when it comes to the CFL (Ottawa and Saskatchewan being the exceptions right now).

[AngeloV]

Not disagreeing, I just find it disappointing that "diehards" are still finding things to complain about when it comes to a stadium/location. I take the GO to the majority of games I attend, and I found it easy to go to the games at the dome and BMO. The times that I do drive to the games, I still don't see any issue.

The Argos have attendance issues are due to the perception of the CFL, just like the Rock (NLL), and Marlies (AHL). The Leafs, Raps, Jays and TFC all seem to sell fine (Jays will see a decline soon I think), and people seem to find ways to attend those games for the teams they enjoy. I don't understand why there's always excuses/complaints when it comes to the CFL (Ottawa and Saskatchewan being the exceptions right now).

I guess I'm just used to all the complaining. Starting with the cutting of the "big 3", to going into the draft with no GM and coach in place, to the lack of season ticket perks, it goes on and on, often bringing out the worst of me on here. I have no problem being patient with a build of the fan base. It's something I have no control of, so why complain? Won't stop me from ever buying season tickets.

[Neely2005]

This.

1 years ago is not that long ago. In 2007 the Argos averaged nearly 31K a game (sold and distributed). Yes, that was a Grey Cup hosting year which brings up the average. Still during the C&S era, they never averaged less than 25K a game. They were higher than the Jays in many of those years.

That started to slowly slip during the Braley era but were seeing things in BC very similar to what happened here too. I've always said a badly run business is going to have fewer customers than one that's well run and funded. The Grey Cup Fiasco last year is a big part of this year's decline.....still a by product of the Braley era I might add. That's a major difference between TFC and the Argos too.

C&S were also papering the house apparently.