Bell Media support

[Tau Ceti]

I think this is a topic that might be good for the off-season once we've digested whatever happens today and the season as a whole. But I thought I would bring it up now as we settle in and consume all the media surrounding the game.


I got out of a promo interview for the Cadillac Lounge event with CP24 at the Bell studios about an hour ago (I feel like a kid on Christmas right now). Riding home I had an epiphany: the Argos are safest if owned by a massive conglomerate. Philanthropic billionaires are fickle and hard to find, while community owned teams really only make sense in media markets a tenth the size of our own.


At least for the foreseeable future, the Argos need a behemoth for whom a $1 or $2 million loss is a rounding error. The support the city brings in terms of corporate advertising revenues to TSN is worth the write down. And it's worth it to us as fans because our clubs, events, game day groups etc. have at least a chance of gaining regional reach.

So that's my two cents on Grey Cup Sunday. Feel the power of the dark side and raise a toast to BCE Inc. tonight.

[Harpastum]

Gotta admit you make a good argument.
Owning a sports team is a tough way to make money - & corporations have other reasons that make ownership worthwile.
And God knows - the Argos are not in any position to turn a profit anytime soon!

[Rich]

Owning a sports team is a tough way to make money - & corporations have other reasons that make ownership worthwile.

You could tell that Larry Tannenbaum was seriously loving every second of the Cup celebrations. He was probably thinking that every penny and every minute he spent on the Argonauts up to that point was worth it. There's nothing like winning a championship.

[DoubleBlue1873]

Does anyone know where Toronto media (Simmons in the Sun and Arthur in the Star, I think, both last week) were getting the figure of a near-$10-million operating loss? I was shocked when I saw that. I just don't see how a CFL team could lose that much money given the TV contract (which pays around 80% of player salaries credited to the cap). Plus the Argos don't paper the house or inflate their attendance figures (notwithstanding Flutie bobblehead night discounts and the like). Not to mention a very successful East Final which must have netted a handsome profit.

Even if the Argos don't get the full benefit of parking and cocessions at BMO, they can't be losing that much, can they? Maybe $2 million or $3 million, but not $10 million? Does anyone have any insights on this?

(Agree with others on the benefits of corporate ownership in this case!)

[ArgoGabe22]

They hired a entire front office first of all, but I'm not sure its $10M either.

[ArgoZ]

Does anyone know where Toronto media (Simmons in the Sun and Arthur in the Star, I think, both last week) were getting the figure of a near-$10-million operating loss? I was shocked when I saw that. I just don't see how a CFL team could lose that much money given the TV contract (which pays around 80% of player salaries credited to the cap). Plus the Argos don't paper the house or inflate their attendance figures (notwithstanding Flutie bobblehead night discounts and the like). Not to mention a very successful East Final which must have netted a handsome profit.

Even if the Argos don't get the full benefit of parking and cocessions at BMO, they can't be losing that much, can they? Maybe $2 million or $3 million, but not $10 million? Does anyone have any insights on this?

(Agree with others on the benefits of corporate ownership in this case!)

I think it's reasonable to think the Argos are losing out on $5 million in ticket sales at their current attendance (around 50%). If they are losing another 5 elsewhere, then their business model needs a drastic fix.

[Mightygoose]

Here is the article in question.

http://torontosun.com/sports/footbal...grey-cup-argos

The term used is 'upwards of 10 million'. Which is about as firm as an airfare to Florida 'from' $99.

Last year it was reported they lost 5 million so even with the attendance decrease, I find 10 million a stretch.

[AngeloV]

Does anyone know where Toronto media (Simmons in the Sun and Arthur in the Star, I think, both last week) were getting the figure of a near-$10-million operating loss? I was shocked when I saw that. I just don't see how a CFL team could lose that much money given the TV contract (which pays around 80% of player salaries credited to the cap). Plus the Argos don't paper the house or inflate their attendance figures (notwithstanding Flutie bobblehead night discounts and the like). Not to mention a very successful East Final which must have netted a handsome profit.

Even if the Argos don't get the full benefit of parking and cocessions at BMO, they can't be losing that much, can they? Maybe $2 million or $3 million, but not $10 million? Does anyone have any insights on this?

(Agree with others on the benefits of corporate ownership in this case!)

I speculated about this on twitter too. If the annual operations costs are say $15M, I believe each team gets $4M from the TV deal. Ticket sales at about 130k total seats at an average of (conservatively) $50 per ticket is 6.5M in ticket revenue. That would leave them at a deficit of about 4.5M without any corporate sponsorship numbers taken into account. I would guess the actual number is closer to 4M.

[doubleblue]

Here is the article in question.

http://torontosun.com/sports/footbal...grey-cup-argos

The term used is 'upwards of 10 million'. Which is about as firm as an airfare to Florida 'from' $99.

Last year it was reported they lost 5 million so even with the attendance decrease, I find 10 million a stretch.

10 million for Tax purposes.

[argos1873]

I can't imagine a certain businesses lying about certain losses, and I can't imagine certain journalists inflating loss numbers for sensation /sarcasm (not saying this is the case in this instance, but it's been know to happen). Since Bell is a publicly traded company, couldn't we get the real numbers somehow? Or is it because Larry Tannenbaum is a private partner in the venture, does that make it harder to get the real numbers?

[Tau Ceti]

If you do the math on seats, a $10 million dollar loss implies the Argos could never be profitable. That just doesn't make sense. The financials released by some of the western teams give an idea of revenue and expense. You can start with numbers like these and make your own informed guess: https://d3ham790trbkqy.cloudfront.ne...-Lower-Res.pdf.

[argos1873]

If you do the math on seats, a $10 million dollar loss implies the Argos could never be profitable. That just doesn't make sense. The financials released by some of the western teams give an idea of revenue and expense. You can start with numbers like these and make your own informed guess: https://d3ham790trbkqy.cloudfront.ne...-Lower-Res.pdf.

While I somehow doubt that the 10 million loss number, here are some things to consider. If it was 10 million, it doesn't mean its 10 million per season. 10 million could have been a one off due to transitioning to BMO, office hires, excess marketing, launching a new brand, etc, etc. I think it is possible Bell/LT dropped a lot of cash on the Argos last season. I doubt anyone yet knows what they lost after this season. The other thing to note is, did Bell specifically invest in the Argos to make money off the Argos, or did they invest in the Argos to ensure one of their major TV assets, TSN, continued to have a team in the most significant TV market in Canada, for their CFL contract? Obviously they would wish to make money off the Argos, but do they actually care that much about that? Or do they think its a huge market TV wise, and that Toronto is the or at least one of the "trend" markets of Canada. If they can somehow make the CFL work in Toronto, it will only make the rest of Canada take notice and increase viewership elsewhere in the country. Again I don't think Bell is willing to lose 10 mill a year, if that's even true, but I don't think they care if they are making money directly from the team, not that they wouldn't like that, or are not trying for that.

[AngeloV]

While I somehow doubt that the 10 million loss number, here are some things to consider. If it was 10 million, it doesn't mean its 10 million per season. 10 million could have been a one off due to transitioning to BMO, office hires, excess marketing, launching a new brand, etc, etc. I think it is possible Bell/LT dropped a lot of cash on the Argos last season. I doubt anyone yet knows what they lost after this season. The other thing to note is, did Bell specifically invest in the Argos to make money off the Argos, or did they invest in the Argos to ensure one of their major TV assets, TSN, continued to have a team in the most significant TV market in Canada, for their CFL contract? Obviously they would wish to make money off the Argos, but do they actually care that much about that? Or do they think its a huge market TV wise, and that Toronto is the or at least one of the "trend" markets of Canada. If they can somehow make the CFL work in Toronto, it will only make the rest of Canada take notice and increase viewership elsewhere in the country. Again I don't think Bell is willing to lose 10 mill a year, if that's even true, but I don't think they care if they are making money directly from the team, not that they wouldn't like that, or are not trying for that.

Another thing to consider re: the 10M figure, is that they may be including the money spent on the purchase of the club. IF it's true they bought the team for 15 or 20M, they may be including a % of that over X number of years as part of their balance sheet.

[Mightygoose]

Another thing to consider re: the 10M figure, is that they may be including the money spent on the purchase of the club. IF it's true they bought the team for 15 or 20M, they may be including a % of that over X number of years as part of their balance sheet.

After the club was bought, Brian Cooper was on Prime Time Sports and mentioned the team sold around 5 to 7 million but yes they could be deferring some of that purchase price forward.

Also, the 'upwards of 10 million' could be guess, reported 5 million loss last year and STH base went down almost by half probably leads to that estimate.

[rdavies]

Found it. Here is the "infamous" PTS interview with Richard Peddie former President and CEO of MLSE. In it he talks about why BMO was built soccer only at first (if you can believe the explanation) and he also covers the profits MLSE was projected to make on the Argos. He said they could make a million or so profit which wasn't worth it to them as they could get the same out of a couple of concerts.

Note, this "kicking the tires" of buying the Argos and projecting profits happened before the new CFL TV contract.

Just for the sake of clarity, the new TV contract was March 2013 and the interview looks like September 2013.

Edit: Just re-listened to the interview and he said the last time MLSE looked at the Argos was 2 years before the interview and they looked at buying them on three occasions.

Also got out of it, that C and S thought the soccer stadium was deliberately made smaller to keep the Argos out. Using the common sense sniff test why would C and S play their buddy McCown if it wasn't true. What Peddie says on the surface seems to make sense but something doesn't quite ring true with me on that. The only reason C and S would play MCown would be to make public the info to cover their lack of ability to get in on it (no money?) I'm still thinkin' it was shenanigans on the part of MLSE.

This interview covers a lot of important ground, and another point touched on was NBA Commish David Stern not wanting Toronto in the NBA, it was the the owners wanting the expansion fee that got them in.

[Tau Ceti]

After the club was bought, Brian Cooper was on Prime Time Sports and mentioned the team sold around 5 to 7 million but yes they could be deferring some of that purchase price forward.

Also, the 'upwards of 10 million' could be guess, reported 5 million loss last year and STH base went down almost by half probably leads to that estimate.

Interesting. I had never heard any figure for the purchase price from Braley. And where was the 5 million reported loss from last year?

[Neely2005]

Here is the article in question.

http://torontosun.com/sports/footbal...grey-cup-argos

The term used is 'upwards of 10 million'. Which is about as firm as an airfare to Florida 'from' $99.

Last year it was reported they lost 5 million so even with the attendance decrease, I find 10 million a stretch.

The Argonauts went above and beyond on their marketing and advertising budget this season and last season. It wouldn't surprise me if that accounted for the majority of their loses.

[Neely2005]

A good read on what the Argonauts have planned to kep the momentum going:

https://theathletic.com/169033/2017/...his-die-today/

[AngeloV]

After the club was bought, Brian Cooper was on Prime Time Sports and mentioned the team sold around 5 to 7 million but yes they could be deferring some of that purchase price forward.

Also, the 'upwards of 10 million' could be guess, reported 5 million loss last year and STH base went down almost by half probably leads to that estimate.

TBH, I have always had a hard time believing anything that has come out of the mouth of Brian Cooper. Even when he was part of the Candy/McNall/Gretzky management group, I used to refer to him as a big phony. Couple the fact that he gave this number on bitter McCowan's show, and to me, it adds even less credibility.