MLSE, TC and Don Bosco

**Jon Gonzo** · 03-06-2018, 11:08 AM

Any thoughts on what the Argos may do for Training Camp and beyond?

Apologies if I missed something, but my thoughts are is that with MLSE having the means, that they will likely consolidate the two teams and build a super training-center knowing that it is necessary, and it's probably a solid real estate investment at the same time.

I think we'd all agree that we don't need to be hearing anymore of those Victor Butler stories about a shabby environment. That was almost a behind the scenes, candid slice of what I am sure the players talk like among themselves.

Pro's need a professional environment.

Any thoughts on the future of Don Bosco, Downsview, TC and how all this may shake down?

**paulwoods13** · 03-06-2018, 11:37 AM

I want to hear Manning's vision on this (and other things). I'm a bit worried that MLSE may view the Argos as not worth investing a lot in because of (perceived) limited revenue growth potential compared to their other properties. I have a hard time seeing Argos and TFC sharing a practice facility because they may be perceived as unequal parts of the empire. It would obviously make sense from a competitive standpoint to have the Argos in a first-class facility, but will MLSE see it as sensible financially? I'm not so sure.

**AngeloV** · 03-06-2018, 11:41 AM

From what I understand, they are leaning on holding TC at York again. Beyond that, not sure if anything will have changed as of yet from last year. I would bet on another year of York up until the Lions start camp some time in August, then back to Don Bosco and busing to Downsview.

**Scooter McCray** · 03-06-2018, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by paulwoods13

I want to hear Manning's vision on this (and other things). I'm a bit worried that MLSE may view the Argos as not worth investing a lot in because of (perceived) limited revenue growth potential compared to their other properties. I have a hard time seeing Argos and TFC sharing a practice facility because they may be perceived as unequal parts of the empire. It would obviously make sense from a competitive standpoint to have the Argos in a first-class facility, but will MLSE see it as sensible financially? I'm not so sure.

I'm a lot worried about this. Manning' lack of Argo/CFL history is going to slow him down on many needed initiatives. We see this already in his want to tarp BMO FIELD. He doesn't understand the business situation on the ground for the Argos in Toronto to make the important investment decisions yet. He will learn but that us going to cost the team another year. This is where Ambrosie has to be on his ear explaining that the Argos draw 5 times the TV viewers his TFC do yet still get 50% of the game day attendance. That the entire Argo payroll is what they pay 1 of his soccer stars. That Argo tv numbers have been consistent for decades and that once soccer expansion dries up with the next recession about a year away the CFL economics are going to look a helluva lot better than MLS'. The future ROI on the Argos looks much better than TFC. And the amount of investment is a fraction of what they put into TFC.

**Will** · 03-06-2018, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by paulwoods13

I want to hear Manning's vision on this (and other things). I'm a bit worried that MLSE may view the Argos as not worth investing a lot in because of (perceived) limited revenue growth potential compared to their other properties. I have a hard time seeing Argos and TFC sharing a practice facility because they may be perceived as unequal parts of the empire. It would obviously make sense from a competitive standpoint to have the Argos in a first-class facility, but will MLSE see it as sensible financially? I'm not so sure.

Argos were a little more active in free agency than usual and re-signed most of their FA's. MLSE seems to be investing on the field.

**rdavies** · 03-06-2018, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by paulwoods13

I want to hear Manning's vision on this (and other things). I'm a bit worried that MLSE may view the Argos as not worth investing a lot in because of (perceived) limited revenue growth potential compared to their other properties. I have a hard time seeing Argos and TFC sharing a practice facility because they may be perceived as unequal parts of the empire. It would obviously make sense from a competitive standpoint to have the Argos in a first-class facility, but will MLSE see it as sensible financially? I'm not so sure.

So is this a pile of crap then?

With Toronto FC booming, top boss Bill Manning looks to improve embattled Argos situation
Kurtis W. Larson Toronto Sun January 24, 2018

“Our plan is to make the Argos just as important,” Manning, who also oversees MLS Cup champs Toronto FC, told the Toronto Sun during an evening sit-down at TFC’s BMO Training Ground. “The Argos are going to be a priority in a lot of ways.”

Manning’s vision for the Argos is to replicate what he has helped establish with the Reds.

“Can we get to the point where we’re selling 25,000 tickets a game and the team is competing for (Grey Cups) year in, year out? That’s my vision,” he said. “How long does it take? I don’t know.”

The Argos have never had what TFC has: “Arguably one of the most successful sports organizations in the world … saying, ‘We think (the Argos) have legs.’ We’re going to give it the attention it needs and the resources it needs,” Manning explained.

While MLSE doesn’t intend to cross-sell the CFL and MLS, the league’s newest executive expounded on the benefits of bringing the Argos beneath the company’s umbrella.

“We have 100 people who at any given time can shift attention to the Argos or TFC,” Manning said, a benefit of being owned by a company with a database of 13 million prospective fans.

**Shatto** · 03-06-2018, 04:43 PM

A couple of points in the article raises questions. First, when Manning says he wants "replicate" what he has with TFC, it appears that he doesn't understand that their fan bases and national appeal are quite different, Secondly, the rather condescending comment that "Argos have never had what TFC has--being one of the most successful sports organizations in the world" He ignores a)the history of the Argos, b)TFC's pitiful regular season TV numbers, compared to the Argos and c) the fact the Argos play in the world's 2nd most successful football league and TFC plays in a soccer league, lucky to be rated in the world's top ten.

It is also interesting that Manning boasts MLSE has data base of 13 million prospective fans and yet with all those "prospective fans" Manning has not been able to attract more than a small number of fans to watch their regular season games on TV.

There have been questions whether the Argos could be as financially successful as TFC. Considering the huge payroll of TFC and the fact players are paid in US dollars but local attendance revenue is in Canadian money, along with the rather lukewarm interest from TV networks, it is hard to imagine that the Argos could not only be, as successful financially but probably more successful in the long run.

Perhaps we are judging Manning too harshly and too early in his leadership of the team. Hopefully, we will be surprised by some new, creative and imaginative marketing and management strategies forthcoming in the near future.

**Will** · 03-06-2018, 04:47 PM

The Argos have never had what TFC has: “Arguably one of the most successful sports organizations in the world … saying, ‘We think (the Argos) have legs.’ We’re going to give it the attention it needs and the resources it needs,” Manning explained.

Shatto,

You may be misinterpreting the statement. The way I interpret is is that he is referring to MLSE and that the Argos have never had the resources that MLSE will be able to provide.

**Scooter McCray** · 03-06-2018, 04:58 PM

I will take him at his word that he intends to make the Argos as important as TFC, but the thing is he has a big learning curve with the Argos. He knows little about the team and league and how to attack the poor attendance issues at BMO Field. He is a smart guy, so I'm sure he will learn and make good decisions but that may take another year and a season under his belt to come up with a proper business plan.

The unfortunate thing is the Argos will likely be able to compete for another championship and most certainly improve on their 9-9 record in 2018. If they were able to have a strategy and business plan ready to go now they could potentially catch lightning in a bottle where the business side and onfield side are both humming. The Argos have not been in that situation since 1991 when John Candy owned the team.

During the Flutie years the team was not well run by Interbrew. In 2004, C&S had not yet taken over, in 2012 Braley did not spend a ton of money on a team he never intended on owning.

I am not sure that the stars have ever aligned in the modern era of the Argos where they had great ownership with a great plan and a solid onfield team at the same time (other than 1991). I am impatient to see what the possibilities can be because I think the turnaround could shock people. This is one of the reasons I was hoping Pinball could be the teams President. He could hit the ground running, and his infectious attitude would get Toronto's business community onside very quickly from a ticket buying and sponsorship perspective.

**paulwoods13** · 03-06-2018, 05:08 PM

Originally Posted by Scooter McCray

The unfortunate thing is the Argos will likely be able to compete for another championship and most certainly improve on their 9-9 record in 2018. If they were able to have a strategy and business plan ready to go now they could potentially catch lightning in a bottle where the business side and onfield side are both humming. The Argos have not been in that situation since 1991 when John Candy owned the team.

...

I am not sure that the stars have ever aligned in the modern era of the Argos where they had great ownership with a great plan and a solid onfield team at the same time (other than 1991).

The sad reality is that the Argos have not had wealthy ownership with a solid business plan since Bassett sold the team. 1991 was great in many ways -- the most magical, electrifying year in the 144 years of Argo football -- but the McNall group (Candy owned only 20%) was not nearly as cash-rich as their spending that year seemed to suggest. They lost millions of dollars in 1991, slashed spending in 1992 and still lost millions, and by 1993 McNall was on the run from a growing pile of creditors. He was eventually convicted of defrauding major banks to the tune of a quarter-billion (yes, billion) dollars. IMO John Candy was the greatest owner the Argos ever had in terms of love for and commitment to the team, but he was not deep pocketed and his co-ownership era essentially flamed out after one year of amazing on-field performance and off-field hoopla, most of it paid for with other people's money.

**paulwoods13** · 03-06-2018, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by rdavies

So is this a pile of crap then?

That's still to be determined IMO. One article with some vague promises of commitment and plans isn't quite enough to make me stop looking for evidence of actual commitment and plans.

**rdavies** · 03-06-2018, 05:27 PM

Whether he meant it or not he put it on the record so he's accountable.

**Scooter McCray** · 03-06-2018, 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by paulwoods13

The sad reality is that the Argos have not had wealthy ownership with a solid business plan since Bassett sold the team. 1991 was great in many ways -- the most magical, electrifying year in the 144 years of Argo football -- but the McNall group (Candy owned only 20%) was not nearly as cash-rich as their spending that year seemed to suggest. They lost millions of dollars in 1991, slashed spending in 1992 and still lost millions, and by 1993 McNall was on the run from a growing pile of creditors. He was eventually convicted of defrauding major banks to the tune of a quarter-billion (yes, billion) dollars. IMO John Candy was the greatest owner the Argos ever had in terms of love for and commitment to the team, but he was not deep pocketed and his co-ownership era essentially flamed out after one year of amazing on-field performance and off-field hoopla, most of it paid for with other people's money.

Correct. McNall was a fraud and I'm sure as it all unravelled this played a small part in John Candys passing. Candy was great. He put so much love and energy into the Argos. The love he had for the players was genuine and you know they felt the same way about him. The team today needs that same leader with the same passion and connection to the team and the city. In my mind the best business decision Bill Manning can make is making Michael Clemons CEO.

**Topshelf** · 03-09-2018, 08:29 AM

The TV and attendance arguments are pointless.
You know what else has great TV numbers? Curling.
I worked in tv for many years, about 8 years ago they switched how they calculate the viewers and everything got a huge boost. It's some math equation, it isn't a real audit.
If MLSe gave away the home opener for free, had a halftime show by drake, and it was full, would we consider it a sell out?
TFC just played 3 home games in 8 days in February and drew an average of 25000, would we rather have TFCs crowds and TV numbers, or our crowds and TV numbers?

I think we need to step back and not worry about the crowd. We just won the Grey cup. The OP was about facilities. That's a solid question. It's a big investment and it takes time for a team to figure it out. TFC didn't start up with downside in place, and what ever we have will beat trailers at erindale.
Under MLSE we already have invested in a better coaching lineup, have got a great home schedule this year, resigned key players. We are getting there.
We have months til opening day, maybe the crowds will be better this year, let's at least wait til after the opener.

**R.J** · 03-09-2018, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by Scooter McCray

I will take him at his word that he intends to make the Argos as important as TFC, but the thing is he has a big learning curve with the Argos. He knows little about the team and league and how to attack the poor attendance issues at BMO Field. He is a smart guy, so I'm sure he will learn and make good decisions but that may take another year and a season under his belt to come up with a proper business plan.

The unfortunate thing is the Argos will likely be able to compete for another championship and most certainly improve on their 9-9 record in 2018. If they were able to have a strategy and business plan ready to go now they could potentially catch lightning in a bottle where the business side and onfield side are both humming. The Argos have not been in that situation since 1991 when John Candy owned the team.

During the Flutie years the team was not well run by Interbrew. In 2004, C&S had not yet taken over, in 2012 Braley did not spend a ton of money on a team he never intended on owning.

I am not sure that the stars have ever aligned in the modern era of the Argos where they had great ownership with a great plan and a solid onfield team at the same time (other than 1991). I am impatient to see what the possibilities can be because I think the turnaround could shock people. This is one of the reasons I was hoping Pinball could be the teams President. He could hit the ground running, and his infectious attitude would get Toronto's business community onside very quickly from a ticket buying and sponsorship perspective.

Cynamon and Sokowlski took over the team at the end of 2003, and Braley did spend money on the team from 2010-2012, it went downhill after the 100th Grey Cup.

**Scooter McCray** · 03-09-2018, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by R.J

Cynamon and Sokowlski took over the team at the end of 2003, and Braley did spend money on the team from 2010-2012, it went downhill after the 100th Grey Cup.

C&S had good marketing and promotion but as we found out they were not paying the bills and their ownership was not sustainable - back to square one - Braley may have spent some money, but he was never committed to long term ownership and was a stop gap so he never had a proper business plan other than host the 100th Grey Cup and cash in on that and as you said immediately stopped spending after that and taking 3 more years to sell the team. The momentum from that incredible 100th GC win at home completely lost. Back to square one again. Enter Michael Copeland promising great things which happened on precisely one night, the home opener of 2016. Since then everything became smaller, expectations were reduced and the talk was of long term fix. Now Bill Manning is in charge and I don't know what his timeline is to do things, but my speculation is because his learning curve is steep he will take a season to acclimate himself in things CFL and Argo related while HIS passion in TFC will remain his primary focus. The lack of ownership and management continuity when it comes to the Argonauts has been and continues to be their biggest enemy to business success.

**Jon Gonzo** · 03-10-2018, 09:48 AM

I guess it is the announcement that we're all awaiting. That, and the official introduction of the 2018 Coaching Staff, which most of us will watch with interest. I think that if Coach Chamblin returns, that story will be included as some of the best news of the off-season IMHO.

Has anyone driven past Don Bosco in the past couple of months? Any signs of renovations or any activity?

**Rich** · 05-18-2018, 03:08 PM

Sean Fitz-Gerald is reporting in The Athletic that it is believed the Argos are looking to make Lamport Stadium their practice field this season.

**Shatto** · 05-18-2018, 10:33 PM

I believe the players report to Training Camp on Saturday with practices beginning on Sunday. In the past the first day of practices normally involved walkthroughs with the real training beginning the next day (Monday)

If anyone has any more detailed information, I'd appreciate if they could post the information. In past year's detailed information was posted on the team's website but this doesn't seem to be the case this year, at least up to this point of time.