Tailgating Cancelled

[CBlake]

A big factor with the cancelation of the tailgates was cost ie the permits that had to be in place for them. MLSE has also made cuts in the pregame festivities they have been doing with TFC due to the cost of permits. They use to close off a section of Liberty that ran in front of Brazen Head over to Local. It proved to be not worth it for them. One thing to consider is the Ex is municipal property while Ontario place is provincial. There are lots of moving parts when it comes to putting things on like this.

The focus as evident with the lowering of ticket prices has to be on your core product. Toronto is such a competivite market for entertainment dollars they made a choice and to me it makes sense. As we all know every Argos ownership had tried different things over the years and in some ways no one has really figured it out over the long term, who remembers Show Time of 2002. I know it's on a smaller scale at least for now, but the Wolfpack created a buzz with a sport that most of this city did not even know existed prior to last year.

[Neely2005]

So many people mention the Wolfpack. Giving away your tickets for free is not a strategy for longterm success.

[PullTogether73]

I'll say it one more time: This. Is. A. False. Choice. MLSE didn't have to choose one or the other. Regardless of what happened with the tailgate, it is a good business decision to lower the price point of tickets so they at least match that of TFC. How could overpriced tickets, that suppressed the demand, be subsidizing the tailgate?? Lowering the price will probably increase demand and RAISE revenue in the long run. I personally think investing in and growing the tailgate would have raised revenue in the long run too. That would make both lowering prices and supporting the tailgate independent, sound business decisions. No tradeoff between the two!

That also eviscerates PullTogether's sanctimonious "you sure like spending other peoples' money" rebuttal. I don't support the tailgate because I think somebody should be underwriting my good time. I support the tailgate because I think, long term, a well-functioning tailgate is in the team's financial interest. I think the tailgate makes money for the team in the long term. I can hear the "Manning is smarter than you" reply coming, so just bear with me for a couple more paragraphs...

It all comes down to this: why should a casual fan bother going to an Argonauts game? The TO market is so full of near-perfect substitutes that (outside of the diehards like us) that I honestly can't think of a reason that hasn't been tried and failed in the not-too-distant past. I can cheer? I can do that at any pro sports event. I get to watch football? I can watch the game on my TV. I get to support the team? That hasn't been enough to persuade anybody for as long as I've been a fan. The tickets are cheap? Previous owners have tried lowering the price and gotten nowhere. A shipyard or beergarden? They had that at skydome and it's not very different from the pre-game parties that any other team throws. I get to drink at a bar in liberty village? Who cares, I can drink in a bar in my neighborhood. Bottom line, if there's a list of things I could get at an Argo game that I couldn't get literally ANYWHERE ELSE in Toronto, then a well-functioning tailgate is a big item on that list. As near as I can figure, it's a pretty damn short list, so the head office should have taken a serious look at it before crossing it off.

This will get me in trouble, but I want to say it: I carefully followed the TFC supporters groups and all the drama they kicked up with the condition of the field and the Argos moving to BMO. Do you think any of them said "well, they're really smart businessmen in the head office, they must know what they're doing, so let's go along with whatever they think is best"? Anytime something happened that they didn't like, they lost their friggin minds. They had their view of what made the team and the game special, they advocated tirelessly for that viewpoint, and get lost to any of the suits that tried to tell them differently. I completely disagreed with their viewpoint, and I'm not saying their approach was objectively right. All I know, however, is that MLSE blows copious amounts of money keeping that field in immaculate condition and scrubbing all traces of the Argonauts when the field is converted. Squeeky wheels get grease, my friends. Smiling, easy-going wheels get screwed.

Last point: Manning might have a bigger bank account than me, but that doesn't mean he's infallible. He's been a sports executive, but in leagues where the teams have always been cool and popular and not had the same problems the Argos have. Say what you want about Copeland and the execution, be he'd been a CFL executive for a long time and I think he had a better appreciation for what a successful tailgate would do for the team. Manning's been here for a cup of coffee, and I don't think he has nearly the same understanding of what they're getting into. You want to know what makes me worried? You're free to invent your own stories about why you think Manning axed the tailgate (lawsuits? show me the evidence), but all we know for sure is he took a look at it and said "it's forced. not enough people are doing it. it's not popular enough". Didn't we all think MLSE had the ability to MAKE things popular? How long before they decide "not enough people like the Argonauts. they're not popular enough"?

I know Naylor's convinced, but this is a red flag for me. I think

it reflects a lack of thoughtfulness and nuance.

If I'm not already in trouble with you, this will probably clinch it: "He's a successful businessman, he must know what he's talking about," is one of the most common things I heard leading up to the 2016 U.S. presidential election... How's that working out?

Yes, well thought out comments sir.
A few thoughts...

"I'll say it one more time: This. Is. A. False. Choice. MLSE didn't have to choose one or the other."
How do you know this to be true? AFAIK, none of us have sat in on Argonauts management meetings, none of us know what, if any, the Argonauts operating budget might be. From what I have seen (tailgating cancellation, radio broadcast cancellation last year), the Argonauts do seem to have to operate within some sort of budget. The evidence suggests that they do not have access to unlimited amounts of MLSE cash.
(I'll remain "sanctimonious" as you put it, until I hear from someone who knows for certain that operating funds are endless and we can spend the Argonauts money freely.)

"the head office should have taken a serious look at it before crossing it off"
Again, how do you know that they didn't?

"I support the tailgate because I think, long term, a well-functioning tailgate is in the team's financial interest. I think the tailgate makes money for the team in the long term. I can hear the "Manning is smarter than you" reply coming"
"Manning might have a bigger bank account than me, but that doesn't mean he's infallible."
I don't know that anyone here thinks that any part of Argonauts (or even MLSE) management is infallible. I certainly don't. And your case that the tailgate is a good investment in the Argos success in the long term is sound imo. HOWEVER, I still go back to the budget/endless funds debate - one may argue that higher prices were not subsidizing the tailgate, but clearly, if attendance remains the same this year as the previous two years, the Argos are out a SIGNIFICANT amount of cash due to lower prices. Appearances are that tailgating and other measures (Shipyard) were tried, attendance actually dropped from the Rogers Centre days, time to try something else.

"MLSE blows copious amounts of money keeping that field in immaculate condition and scrubbing all traces of the Argonauts when the field is converted. Squeeky wheels get grease, my friends. Smiling, easy-going wheels get screwed."
Excellent point! Nothing wrong with/no cost to making our opinions heard. It at least got us home game radio broadcasts back last year.

Finally, yes, that last paragraph is hilarious and sad at the same time.

[AngeloV]

a big factor with the cancelation of the tailgates was cost ie the permits that had to be in place for them. Mlse has also made cuts in the pregame festivities they have been doing with tfc due to the cost of permits. They use to close off a section of liberty that ran in front of brazen head over to local. It proved to be not worth it for them. One thing to consider is the ex is municipal property while ontario place is provincial. There are lots of moving parts when it comes to putting things on like this.

The focus as evident with the lowering of ticket prices has to be on your core product. Toronto is such a competivite market for entertainment dollars they made a choice and to me it makes sense. As we all know every argos ownership had tried different things over the years and in some ways no one has really figured it out over the long term, who remembers show time of 2002. I know it's on a smaller scale at least for now, but the wolfpack created a buzz with a sport that most of this city did not even know existed prior to last year.

bingo!!

[argolio]

That's right....argolio is going to get his comeuppins.

Ha! I basically got it right after the East final.

[AngeloV]

Ha! I basically got it right after the East final.

Wasn't that more of a godownins? LOL!!

[argolio]

Wasn't that more of a godownins? LOL!!

Direction had no meaning for about ten seconds.

[Topshelf]

MLSE is trying to build a fanbase, rather than maintain one.
The tailgate just didnt reach enough people.
No other team has a pre game party, other than say the TFC championship, or opening days, etc.
The Argos are probably going back to trying to get the "liberty village" crowd to come out. People that will ttc to the game.
I still think the only answer is to make a big signing. If Manziel goes to hamilton, that will be the biggest home game of the year.
Fans turned out for Rocket, there was "buzz" for Ricky before he got hurt.
TFC saw a boost in their lean years whenever a big star from another team was rolling into town. Heck a big number of people bought seasons seats the first year solely to see Beckham.
Thats the toronto market.
That said, the scheduling issue someone posted early, with competing concerts at ontario place makes a lot of sense.
I dont think it was solely a cost issue. They likely just felt they want to bring in a certain crowd that wasnt going to attend the tailgate anyways.
The majority of fans who will be upset with this are likely existing season seat holders, who will renew anyways.

[Argocister]

I hope your last statement of seasons ticket holders will renew anyways holds ... Because for me this helps me to decide not to renew some of my tickets next year.

dmonts statement ......
Last point: Manning might have a bigger bank account than me, but that doesn't mean he's infallible. He's been a sports executive, but in leagues where the teams have always been cool and popular and not had the same problems the Argos have. Say what you want about Copeland and the execution, be he'd been a CFL executive for a long time and I think he had a better appreciation for what a successful tailgate would do for the team. Manning's been here for a cup of coffee, and I don't think he has nearly the same understanding of what they're getting into. You want to know what makes me worried? You're free to invent your own stories about why you think Manning axed the tailgate (lawsuits? show me the evidence), but all we know for sure is he took a look at it and said "it's forced. not enough people are doing it. it's not popular enough". Didn't we all think MLSE had the ability to MAKE things popular? How long before they decide "not enough people like the Argonauts. they're not popular enough"?
I know Naylor's convinced, but this is a red flag for me. I think
it reflects a lack of thoughtfulness and nuance.


That scares me ..... Because I agree that Copland knows the nuances of the CFL and the tailgate is one of them .
I have 6 seasons .... The tailgate is used every game .....and for at least 3 games a season we will get 10-20 more people out.
They all don't become season ticket holders but they do come to a couple games a year and they do follow the Argos now.

I'm not sure I will renew 6 in the future.... It's the experience that creates the atmosphere. It's the annual family gathering at the home opener ..... The 5,7 and 10 yr olds aren't getting into the shipyard. ..... It's the Women's Sports Network that comes together at least once a season ...... It's the summer birthdays that get celebrated ..... Sorry I'm not reserving 20 seats at a local restaurant for those..... We can hold a tailgate and then the game ..... Maybe best to do this at home from now on with my blue truck and new BBQ .... Yep this may be the last year for 6 seasons .....I will buy 2 from now on .

I am very disappointed . I'm not sure Manning knows what the repercussions will be .... I don't think they thought this out ....
It does look like he has taken his cookie cutter mold and placed it on the Argos . If it works ..... Good .... I guess the experience will be a TFC style one now ....

And sorry if the the tailgate seems forced but that's all we have in
Ontario ....so please don't take it away!..... Oh yea they already did. Damn

[argos1873]

They did the right thing which was lower ticket prices. Good lord those prices were out of whack. The tailgate, which was obviously great with some fans, didn't do anything attendance wise. Build the regular attendance first. I hate to see the tailgate go, but I think lower prices are more effective than the tailgate. If you get more fans, a natural tailgate might ensue...who knows, if the feds can legalize pot, maybe the province can loosen the liquor laws a smidge.

[paulwoods13]

I still think the only answer is to make a big signing. If Manziel goes to hamilton, that will be the biggest home game of the year.
Fans turned out for Rocket, there was "buzz" for Ricky before he got hurt.

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. The Argos had ONE crowd above 40,000 in Rocket's first season, and then a 50k crowd for the Eastern Final. The next year, same thing -- a single crowd above 40,000.

In 2006, when Ricky Williams was with the Argos, the reported average home attendance was 32,000, It's been widely reported -- and I certainly believe -- that attendance figures from the Cynamon-Sokolowski era did not accurately reflect tickets sold.

"Buzz" can't be measured, but IMO whatever buzz the signing of Ricky Williams generated among non-fans was gone a couple of weeks after the season started.

If Toronto's only or best hope of gate success is stunt signings, I'd say we are doomed because there is no way to sign anyone who would actually move the needle without blowing the salary cap to smithereens. That happened in 1991 and while it had some short-term success, the franchise was at rock bottom two years later, with no "name" star and dwindling crowds.

[gilthethrill]

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. The Argos had ONE crowd above 40,000 in Rocket's first season, and then a 50k crowd for the Eastern Final. The next year, same thing -- a single crowd above 40,000.

In 2006, when Ricky Williams was with the Argos, the reported average home attendance was 32,000, It's been widely reported -- and I certainly believe -- that attendance figures from the Cynamon-Sokolowski era did not accurately reflect tickets sold.

"Buzz" can't be measured, but IMO whatever buzz the signing of Ricky Williams generated among non-fans was gone a couple of weeks after the season started.

If Toronto's only or best hope of gate success is stunt signings, I'd say we are doomed because there is no way to sign anyone who would actually move the needle without blowing the salary cap to smithereens. That happened in 1991 and while it had some short-term success, the franchise was at rock bottom two years later, with no "name" star and dwindling crowds.

In addition, the CFL has a salary cap, where as the soccer league TFC plays in, clearly does not.

[OV Argo]

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. The Argos had ONE crowd above 40,000 in Rocket's first season, and then a 50k crowd for the Eastern Final. The next year, same thing -- a single crowd above 40,000.

In 2006, when Ricky Williams was with the Argos, the reported average home attendance was 32,000, It's been widely reported -- and I certainly believe -- that attendance figures from the Cynamon-Sokolowski era did not accurately reflect tickets sold.

"Buzz" can't be measured, but IMO whatever buzz the signing of Ricky Williams generated among non-fans was gone a couple of weeks after the season started.

If Toronto's only or best hope of gate success is stunt signings, I'd say we are doomed because there is no way to sign anyone who would actually move the needle without blowing the salary cap to smithereens. That happened in 1991 and while it had some short-term success, the franchise was at rock bottom two years later, with no "name" star and dwindling crowds.

Wasn't a buzz about the new super SkyDome a factor in bigger Argo crowds back then as well - more people wanting to check out the facility ? (along with the Rocket plus Candy & Gretzky as part onwers) ?


Signing another ex-all-american/NFL super-hero would only create a slight bump in Argo interest for part of a season maybe ? (was attendance way up for the first couple of games Ricky Williams played for the Argos ?)


We all realize it will be a long, tough haul to get the Argos back to anything approaching decent crowds and much more respect on the TO sports scene. Agreed with Paul that some gimmick signing of a name American football star is no answer to the problem. It will, IMO, take a whole bunch of baby steps and little things to help the Argos regain some stature in the market. Marketing of all sorts and reaching out to new fans in many ways. That's why - IMO - the cancellation of the tailgate is myopic, bottom line thinking - by an ownership I have little trust knows anything much or smart about Canadian football - and is not going to help, when it could have continued to be one of the little things that helped.

[jerrym]

Wasn't a buzz about the new super SkyDome a factor in bigger Argo crowds back then as well - more people wanting to check out the facility ? (along with the Rocket plus Candy & Gretzky as part onwers) ?


Signing another ex-all-american/NFL super-hero would only create a slight bump in Argo interest for part of a season maybe ? (was attendance way up for the first couple of games Ricky Williams played for the Argos ?)


We all realize it will be a long, tough haul to get the Argos back to anything approaching decent crowds and much more respect on the TO sports scene. Agreed with Paul that some gimmick signing of a name American football star is no answer to the problem. It will, IMO, take a whole bunch of baby steps and little things to help the Argos regain some stature in the market. Marketing of all sorts and reaching out to new fans in many ways. That's why - IMO - the cancellation of the tailgate is myopic, bottom line thinking - by an ownership I have little trust knows anything much or smart about Canadian football - and is not going to help, when it could have continued to be one of the little things that helped.

I agree totally. Promoting a quick fix of any type only will lead to discouragement when it fails.

[PullTogether73]

Wasn't a buzz about the new super SkyDome a factor in bigger Argo crowds back then as well - more people wanting to check out the facility ? (along with the Rocket plus Candy & Gretzky as part onwers) ?


Signing another ex-all-american/NFL super-hero would only create a slight bump in Argo interest for part of a season maybe ? (was attendance way up for the first couple of games Ricky Williams played for the Argos ?)


We all realize it will be a long, tough haul to get the Argos back to anything approaching decent crowds and much more respect on the TO sports scene. Agreed with Paul that some gimmick signing of a name American football star is no answer to the problem. It will, IMO, take a whole bunch of baby steps and little things to help the Argos regain some stature in the market. Marketing of all sorts and reaching out to new fans in many ways. That's why - IMO - the cancellation of the tailgate is myopic, bottom line thinking - by an ownership I have little trust knows anything much or smart about Canadian football - and is not going to help, when it could have continued to be one of the little things that helped.

Agreed on all counts.

Again, assuming that there is a budget that must be followed, I do believe that lowering ticket prices will have a larger impact on attendance than the tailgate, so I would invest money there as the team has done.
However, the tailgate did offer something unique to the Argonauts in the Toronto sporting landscape. Maybe they bring it back eventually?

[Will]

Wasn't a buzz about the new super SkyDome a factor in bigger Argo crowds back then as well - more people wanting to check out the facility ? (along with the Rocket plus Candy & Gretzky as part onwers) ?


Signing another ex-all-american/NFL super-hero would only create a slight bump in Argo interest for part of a season maybe ? (was attendance way up for the first couple of games Ricky Williams played for the Argos ?)


We all realize it will be a long, tough haul to get the Argos back to anything approaching decent crowds and much more respect on the TO sports scene. Agreed with Paul that some gimmick signing of a name American football star is no answer to the problem. It will, IMO, take a whole bunch of baby steps and little things to help the Argos regain some stature in the market. Marketing of all sorts and reaching out to new fans in many ways. That's why - IMO - the cancellation of the tailgate is myopic, bottom line thinking - by an ownership I have little trust knows anything much or smart about Canadian football - and is not going to help, when it could have continued to be one of the little things that helped.

Argo attendance at the Dome was above 30,000 from 1989 through 1992. There was an increase in attendance from 1991 to 1992, but it wasn't significant.

The Argos reported attendance in the 30,000 range from 2005-2007 range and I don't think it changed much for the Williams' season.

The "name American football star" gimmick worked so well for the Argos in the 1970's too.

[Neely2005]

Wasn't a buzz about the new super SkyDome a factor in bigger Argo crowds back then as well - more people wanting to check out the facility ? (along with the Rocket plus Candy & Gretzky as part onwers) ?


Signing another ex-all-american/NFL super-hero would only create a slight bump in Argo interest for part of a season maybe ? (was attendance way up for the first couple of games Ricky Williams played for the Argos ?)


We all realize it will be a long, tough haul to get the Argos back to anything approaching decent crowds and much more respect on the TO sports scene. Agreed with Paul that some gimmick signing of a name American football star is no answer to the problem. It will, IMO, take a whole bunch of baby steps and little things to help the Argos regain some stature in the market. Marketing of all sorts and reaching out to new fans in many ways. That's why - IMO - the cancellation of the tailgate is myopic, bottom line thinking - by an ownership I have little trust knows anything much or smart about Canadian football - and is not going to help, when it could have continued to be one of the little things that helped.

Yeah it really doesn't make any sense why they cancelled the only thing that was unique to the Argonauts in a crowded and competitive Toronto sports market. Totally shooting themselves in the foot.

[Argo57]

Yeah it really doesn't make any sense why they cancelled the only thing that was unique to the Argonauts in a crowded and competitive Toronto sports market. Totally shooting themselves in the foot.

If Argonaut attendance figures were rising I might be inclined to agree but the opposite is in fact true so eliminating tailgating is a non issue IMO.

[OV Argo]

If Argonaut attendance figures were rising I might be inclined to agree but the opposite is in fact true so eliminating tailgating is a non issue IMO.

Eliminating an effort to promote the Argos and the game day experience at the stadium - one that has been reported as popular & fun by many fans - or ANY effort to promote and market this team, is a"non issue" ? Sorry, I just don't get that.

[Argocister]

If Argonaut attendance figures were rising I might be inclined to agree but the opposite is in fact true so eliminating tailgating is a non issue IMO.

yea... I'm with OVArgo on this one .... If at least 10 % of your seasons ticket holders (if not more) are participating in this .... its not a non-issue.
It is a non-issue if you don't care about your existing STH.

I agree with the cost of the tickets .... and reducing them will hopefully work ... but rather than nix the tailgate, figuring out a less expensive alternative may have kept a good number of the STH happier.... but that may not fit into Mannings pre set program the Argos are to follow.