Tailgating Cancelled

[gilthethrill]

That's the spirit. I'm keeping the credit in my account and purchasing additional tickets to games for friends of mine.

Av I estimate you will be filling up our section completely if you buy tickets for just a few of your friends.

[AngeloV]

Av I estimate you will be filling up our section completely if you buy tickets for just a few of your friends.

HAHAHAHA. You wouldn't know that by reading my battles on here, that's for sure.

[GregR]

If the fans start their own tailgate and there is booze, there is NO WAY it won't be shut down. This is Toronto.

[Treblecharger1]

I just picked up 2 extra seasons @$159 it is a steal. If I don't use them I will donate them to charity.

[wewantthecup]

How are people getting refunds? I was just told that no one will be getting refunds?

[OV Argo]

But WHY do you want MLSE to run a fan tailgate and supply the beer? as other people have pointed out, it is fans that organized and ran their own tailgate parties in the past. Go to Buffalo and any other NFL stadium and people are partying in the parking lots, bringing their own beer and making their own entertainment, they are not complaining that the owners aren't organizing it and supplying cheap beer.

So, why did the current Argo braintrust decide to participate in and run the tailgate in the first place? Maybe because they were trying to find ways to create more interest and better game day experience for Argo fans - existing ones and potential new ones? Judging from a lot of comments I've read from those who attended - it was a fun & popular event, at least to some extent, and maybe attracted some new type fans who like that kind of game day experience to bring them to the stadium.

So now some soccer guy / bean-counter decides to cancel the tailgate - I guess for "bottom line" reasons and because it was just soooo incredibly taxing & draining on the cash strapped corporation in charge of the Argos ? And you want me to accept this as some sort of unchallengeable, brilliant business decision ? Sorry - no can do; you and others are free though to accept as right, anything & everything the current ownership does, of course.

[Rich]

I heard a rumour that there is a lawsuit currently pending over an injury sustained at a tailgate last year. If this is true then it is THE reason the tailgates were cancelled.

[argolio]

I'm guessing because they want to own all the pro sports teams in the city. Wouldn't be the least surprised if the Blue Jays are next, but because of the price tag, that may be a little more complicated.

I think the big obstacle/elephant in the room is a new stadium, not the price tag. The Jays aren't getting a $25M gift next time.

[PullTogether73]

So, why did the current Argo braintrust decide to participate in and run the tailgate in the first place? Maybe because they were trying to find ways to create more interest and better game day experience for Argo fans - existing ones and potential new ones? Judging from a lot of comments I've read from those who attended - it was a fun & popular event, at least to some extent, and maybe attracted some new type fans who like that kind of game day experience to bring them to the stadium.

So now some soccer guy / bean-counter decides to cancel the tailgate - I guess for "bottom line" reasons and because it was just soooo incredibly taxing & draining on the cash strapped corporation in charge of the Argos ? And you want me to accept this as some sort of unchallengeable, brilliant business decision ? Sorry - no can do; you and others are free though to accept as right, anything & everything the current ownership does, of course.

Sigh.
Where to start?

"So, why did the current Argo braintrust decide to participate in and run the tailgate in the first place? Maybe because they were trying to find ways to create more interest and better game day experience for Argo fans - existing ones and potential new ones?"
Yes. But the current Argo braintrust is not the same as the one that instituted tailgating. Don't confuse owners with day-to-day managers.

"Judging from a lot of comments I've read from those who attended - it was a fun & popular event, at least to some extent, and maybe attracted some new type fans who like that kind of game day experience to bring them to the stadium."
The key word here is "maybe". Maybe the tailgate attracted existing ticket buyers AND curious newcomers. But maybe those newcomers did not become regular ticket purchasers, which was at least part of the goal of the tailgate. We may never know. MLSE may not know for sure either, but since nominal attendance dropped at BMO Field versus what was recorded at Rogers Centre (both numbers are suspect probably), management seems to have deemed the benefit outweighed by the cost and prefers to invest in lower ticket prices over the tailgate.

"So now some soccer guy / bean-counter decides to cancel the tailgate - I guess for "bottom line" reasons and because it was just soooo incredibly taxing & draining on the cash strapped corporation in charge of the Argos ?"
Well, I've already stated that you seem quite willing to spend other peoples' money. While there is the mantra that one has to spend money to make money, there is also the mantra that throwing money at a problem won't fix it. Better allocation of existing funds is always desired before borrowing elsewhere. It seems to me that the Argos have chosen to allocate funds to lower ticket prices in the hope that this will draw more ticket buyers than tailgating. Since attendance is lower now than when there was no formal tailgating at Rogers Centre, this seems like a reasonable move imo.

"And you want me to accept this as some sort of unchallengeable, brilliant business decision ? Sorry - no can do; you and others are free though to accept as right, anything & everything the current ownership does, of course."
You, and many others who have done so, are free to challenge any and all management decisions. I didn't see anyone say otherwise. However, as management has far more knowledge of the situation than any of we outsiders, I will listen to their explanations of their actions and question only what I can. None of us have knowledge of the team's/ownership's budget, goals, reasons for buying the team, etc. We can only speculate and judge based on insufficient information. If the owners do not wish to take funds from the other teams in their portfolio, why should we tell them otherwise? I'm pretty sure fans of those teams would be pissed if there were less funds for them to spend because the Argos pilfered a chunk of it. I know I wouldn't be thrilled to hear that TFC got some Argo money to help them out (if the Argos ever become profitable).

[AngeloV]

Sigh.
Where to start?

"So, why did the current Argo braintrust decide to participate in and run the tailgate in the first place? Maybe because they were trying to find ways to create more interest and better game day experience for Argo fans - existing ones and potential new ones?"
Yes. But the current Argo braintrust is not the same as the one that instituted tailgating. Don't confuse owners with day-to-day managers.

"Judging from a lot of comments I've read from those who attended - it was a fun & popular event, at least to some extent, and maybe attracted some new type fans who like that kind of game day experience to bring them to the stadium."
The key word here is "maybe". Maybe the tailgate attracted existing ticket buyers AND curious newcomers. But maybe those newcomers did not become regular ticket purchasers, which was at least part of the goal of the tailgate. We may never know. MLSE may not know for sure either, but since nominal attendance dropped at BMO Field versus what was recorded at Rogers Centre (both numbers are suspect probably), management seems to have deemed the benefit outweighed by the cost and prefers to invest in lower ticket prices over the tailgate.

"So now some soccer guy / bean-counter decides to cancel the tailgate - I guess for "bottom line" reasons and because it was just soooo incredibly taxing & draining on the cash strapped corporation in charge of the Argos ?"
Well, I've already stated that you seem quite willing to spend other peoples' money. While there is the mantra that one has to spend money to make money, there is also the mantra that throwing money at a problem won't fix it. Better allocation of existing funds is always desired before borrowing elsewhere. It seems to me that the Argos have chosen to allocate funds to lower ticket prices in the hope that this will draw more ticket buyers than tailgating. Since attendance is lower now than when there was no formal tailgating at Rogers Centre, this seems like a reasonable move imo.

"And you want me to accept this as some sort of unchallengeable, brilliant business decision ? Sorry - no can do; you and others are free though to accept as right, anything & everything the current ownership does, of course."
You, and many others who have done so, are free to challenge any and all management decisions. I didn't see anyone say otherwise. However, as management has far more knowledge of the situation than any of we outsiders, I will listen to their explanations of their actions and question only what I can. None of us have knowledge of the team's/ownership's budget, goals, reasons for buying the team, etc. We can only speculate and judge based on insufficient information. If the owners do not wish to take funds from the other teams in their portfolio, why should we tell them otherwise? I'm pretty sure fans of those teams would be pissed if there were less funds for them to spend because the Argos pilfered a chunk of it. I know I wouldn't be thrilled to hear that TFC got some Argo money to help them out (if the Argos ever become profitable).

I'm glad you decided to come back to the forum. Well thought out rebuttal.

[ArgofanIan]

So, why did the current Argo braintrust decide to participate in and run the tailgate in the first place? Maybe because they were trying to find ways to create more interest and better game day experience for Argo fans - existing ones and potential new ones? Judging from a lot of comments I've read from those who attended - it was a fun & popular event, at least to some extent, and maybe attracted some new type fans who like that kind of game day experience to bring them to the stadium.

So now some soccer guy / bean-counter decides to cancel the tailgate - I guess for "bottom line" reasons and because it was just soooo incredibly taxing & draining on the cash strapped corporation in charge of the Argos ? And you want me to accept this as some sort of unchallengeable, brilliant business decision ? Sorry - no can do; you and others are free though to accept as right, anything & everything the current ownership does, of course.

Great post OV...my feelings exactly on TFC Manning

[gilthethrill]

Was able to upgrade and purchase an additional ST this morning and still have $31.00 credit on my account. June just got closer for me today.

Hopefully by upgrading some of the rifraf that occupied my section in past seasons will have moved on as well...😆

[AngeloV]

Was able to upgrade and purchase an additional ST this morning and still have $31.00 credit on my account. June just got closer for me today.

Hopefully by upgrading some of the rifraf that occupied my section in past seasons will have moved on as well...😆

I don't like this. Last season I was 1 row above you. Now you are 1 row above me. Head on a swivel time.

[Will]

I seem to be chopped liver according to the Argos!

[gilthethrill]

I don't like this. Last season I was 1 row above you. Now you are 1 row above me. Head on a swivel time.

That's right....argolio is going to get his comeuppins.

[dmont]

Choice #1: subsidize tailgates where less than 5% of fans participate
Choice #2: don't subsidize tailgates and pay less for season tickets

I'm taking door #2.

I'll say it one more time: This. Is. A. False. Choice. MLSE didn't have to choose one or the other. Regardless of what happened with the tailgate, it is a good business decision to lower the price point of tickets so they at least match that of TFC. How could overpriced tickets, that suppressed the demand, be subsidizing the tailgate?? Lowering the price will probably increase demand and RAISE revenue in the long run. I personally think investing in and growing the tailgate would have raised revenue in the long run too. That would make both lowering prices and supporting the tailgate independent, sound business decisions. No tradeoff between the two!

That also eviscerates PullTogether's sanctimonious "you sure like spending other peoples' money" rebuttal. I don't support the tailgate because I think somebody should be underwriting my good time. I support the tailgate because I think, long term, a well-functioning tailgate is in the team's financial interest. I think the tailgate makes money for the team in the long term. I can hear the "Manning is smarter than you" reply coming, so just bear with me for a couple more paragraphs...

It all comes down to this: why should a casual fan bother going to an Argonauts game? The TO market is so full of near-perfect substitutes that (outside of the diehards like us) that I honestly can't think of a reason that hasn't been tried and failed in the not-too-distant past. I can cheer? I can do that at any pro sports event. I get to watch football? I can watch the game on my TV. I get to support the team? That hasn't been enough to persuade anybody for as long as I've been a fan. The tickets are cheap? Previous owners have tried lowering the price and gotten nowhere. A shipyard or beergarden? They had that at skydome and it's not very different from the pre-game parties that any other team throws. I get to drink at a bar in liberty village? Who cares, I can drink in a bar in my neighborhood. Bottom line, if there's a list of things I could get at an Argo game that I couldn't get literally ANYWHERE ELSE in Toronto, then a well-functioning tailgate is a big item on that list. As near as I can figure, it's a pretty damn short list, so the head office should have taken a serious look at it before crossing it off.

This will get me in trouble, but I want to say it: I carefully followed the TFC supporters groups and all the drama they kicked up with the condition of the field and the Argos moving to BMO. Do you think any of them said "well, they're really smart businessmen in the head office, they must know what they're doing, so let's go along with whatever they think is best"? Anytime something happened that they didn't like, they lost their friggin minds. They had their view of what made the team and the game special, they advocated tirelessly for that viewpoint, and get lost to any of the suits that tried to tell them differently. I completely disagreed with their viewpoint, and I'm not saying their approach was objectively right. All I know, however, is that MLSE blows copious amounts of money keeping that field in immaculate condition and scrubbing all traces of the Argonauts when the field is converted. Squeeky wheels get grease, my friends. Smiling, easy-going wheels get screwed.

Last point: Manning might have a bigger bank account than me, but that doesn't mean he's infallible. He's been a sports executive, but in leagues where the teams have always been cool and popular and not had the same problems the Argos have. Say what you want about Copeland and the execution, be he'd been a CFL executive for a long time and I think he had a better appreciation for what a successful tailgate would do for the team. Manning's been here for a cup of coffee, and I don't think he has nearly the same understanding of what they're getting into. You want to know what makes me worried? You're free to invent your own stories about why you think Manning axed the tailgate (lawsuits? show me the evidence), but all we know for sure is he took a look at it and said "it's forced. not enough people are doing it. it's not popular enough". Didn't we all think MLSE had the ability to MAKE things popular? How long before they decide "not enough people like the Argonauts. they're not popular enough"?

I know Naylor's convinced, but this is a red flag for me. I think

it reflects a lack of thoughtfulness and nuance.

If I'm not already in trouble with you, this will probably clinch it: "He's a successful businessman, he must know what he's talking about," is one of the most common things I heard leading up to the 2016 U.S. presidential election... How's that working out?

[OV Argo]

That is just an outstanding post dmont. Love that clincher last paragraph - LOL ! Just IMO of course ;o)

[RB957]

How are people getting refunds? I was just told that no one will be getting refunds?

Was this question ever answered, because I have the same one? I believe we are entitled to a refund not just a credit, if that is what we prefer. Has anyone else got that, and were there any issues?

[RB957]

Was this question ever answered, because I have the same one? I believe we are entitled to a refund not just a credit, if that is what we prefer. Has anyone else got that, and were there any issues?

Never mind. I saw in the other post that refunds are being offered. Much appreciated.

[Neely2005]

I'll say it one more time: This. Is. A. False. Choice. MLSE didn't have to choose one or the other. Regardless of what happened with the tailgate, it is a good business decision to lower the price point of tickets so they at least match that of TFC. How could overpriced tickets, that suppressed the demand, be subsidizing the tailgate?? Lowering the price will probably increase demand and RAISE revenue in the long run. I personally think investing in and growing the tailgate would have raised revenue in the long run too. That would make both lowering prices and supporting the tailgate independent, sound business decisions. No tradeoff between the two!

That also eviscerates PullTogether's sanctimonious "you sure like spending other peoples' money" rebuttal. I don't support the tailgate because I think somebody should be underwriting my good time. I support the tailgate because I think, long term, a well-functioning tailgate is in the team's financial interest. I think the tailgate makes money for the team in the long term. I can hear the "Manning is smarter than you" reply coming, so just bear with me for a couple more paragraphs...

It all comes down to this: why should a casual fan bother going to an Argonauts game? The TO market is so full of near-perfect substitutes that (outside of the diehards like us) that I honestly can't think of a reason that hasn't been tried and failed in the not-too-distant past. I can cheer? I can do that at any pro sports event. I get to watch football? I can watch the game on my TV. I get to support the team? That hasn't been enough to persuade anybody for as long as I've been a fan. The tickets are cheap? Previous owners have tried lowering the price and gotten nowhere. A shipyard or beergarden? They had that at skydome and it's not very different from the pre-game parties that any other team throws. I get to drink at a bar in liberty village? Who cares, I can drink in a bar in my neighborhood. Bottom line, if there's a list of things I could get at an Argo game that I couldn't get literally ANYWHERE ELSE in Toronto, then a well-functioning tailgate is a big item on that list. As near as I can figure, it's a pretty damn short list, so the head office should have taken a serious look at it before crossing it off.

This will get me in trouble, but I want to say it: I carefully followed the TFC supporters groups and all the drama they kicked up with the condition of the field and the Argos moving to BMO. Do you think any of them said "well, they're really smart businessmen in the head office, they must know what they're doing, so let's go along with whatever they think is best"? Anytime something happened that they didn't like, they lost their friggin minds. They had their view of what made the team and the game special, they advocated tirelessly for that viewpoint, and get lost to any of the suits that tried to tell them differently. I completely disagreed with their viewpoint, and I'm not saying their approach was objectively right. All I know, however, is that MLSE blows copious amounts of money keeping that field in immaculate condition and scrubbing all traces of the Argonauts when the field is converted. Squeeky wheels get grease, my friends. Smiling, easy-going wheels get screwed.

Last point: Manning might have a bigger bank account than me, but that doesn't mean he's infallible. He's been a sports executive, but in leagues where the teams have always been cool and popular and not had the same problems the Argos have. Say what you want about Copeland and the execution, be he'd been a CFL executive for a long time and I think he had a better appreciation for what a successful tailgate would do for the team. Manning's been here for a cup of coffee, and I don't think he has nearly the same understanding of what they're getting into. You want to know what makes me worried? You're free to invent your own stories about why you think Manning axed the tailgate (lawsuits? show me the evidence), but all we know for sure is he took a look at it and said "it's forced. not enough people are doing it. it's not popular enough". Didn't we all think MLSE had the ability to MAKE things popular? How long before they decide "not enough people like the Argonauts. they're not popular enough"?

I know Naylor's convinced, but this is a red flag for me. I think

it reflects a lack of thoughtfulness and nuance.

If I'm not already in trouble with you, this will probably clinch it: "He's a successful businessman, he must know what he's talking about," is one of the most common things I heard leading up to the 2016 U.S. presidential election... How's that working out?

Well said.